Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Your opinion on the matter is worthless.

Then stop interrupting me with your pro-Israeli propaganda.

1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Perhaps you'd be happier in a different location . . . . 

This isn't about where I'm at.

Are you all so narrow minded? Does anybody here care about other people? other countries? Nature? Animals? Anything?

I talk about Canada because this is a forum regarding Canada. If I want to talk about oppression or poverty in Africa, I don't bring it here to overly comfortable racists to "judge", which appears to be all they want to do – judge. No wonder you're so afraid of being judged.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 556
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Canada is one of the LEAST racist countries in the world and actively works at stamping it out.  Why would you be overly concerned about racism in Canada when the MOST racist countries are Middle

This is like asking why some Canadians steal, or rape, or murder.

Probably similar to the reasons some Muslims are so loud about their hatred of non-Muslims, gays, Jews, etc.

Posted Images

10 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Then stop interrupting me with your pro-Israeli propaganda.

As far as I know, this is the first mention of Israel in this thread. It's the first that I've seen.

Is it Israeli propaganda that the death penalty for blasphemy is still carried out in muslim countries? What could be more racist than that?

Is it Israeli propaganda that women in Iran were jailed for taking off their own religious headdress? No, it isn't.

Is it Israeli propagada that women who don't wear a hijab in many muslim countries risk their lives? Risk being raped? Face certain harrassment and most likely physical abuse? Nope. 

I'm not interrupting you to offer the Israeli POV on anything.

I'm interrupting you because you are a supporter of bigotry posing as a concerned citizen who's actually in a position to look down on Canadians. 

You are in no better position to lecture Canadians re: the topic of racism than Clifford Olson is to lecture Canadians about the treatment of children. 

Edited by WestCanMan
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Marocc said:

This isn't about where I'm at.

Are you all so narrow minded? Does anybody here care about other people? other countries? Nature? Animals? Anything?

I talk about Canada because this is a forum regarding Canada. If I want to talk about oppression or poverty in Africa, I don't bring it here to overly comfortable racists to "judge", which appears to be all they want to do – judge. No wonder you're so afraid of being judged.

Have mentioned in the past that a cowboy boot and a moccasin both fit me very comfortably . . . in other words, I'm a 1/2 breed. Metis is the term.  No big deal!

Did you have your 'feelings' hurt at some time?  Perhaps someone slighted you and in your ultra sensitive 'racial mode' and you took it as a racial issue?  Word of advice . . . get over yourself and grow some thicker skin.  This isn't a perfect world. 

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Have mentioned in the past that a cowboy boot and a moccasin both fit me very comfortably . . . in other words, I'm a 1/2 breed. Metis is the term.  No big deal!

Did you have your 'feelings' hurt at some time?  Perhaps someone slighted you and in your ultra sensitive 'racial mode' and you took it as a racial issue?  Word of advice . . . get over yourself and grow some thicker skin.  This isn't a perfect world. 

I defer to you.  Hey I can not grow a thicker skin, I am Jewish...but sure as hell defer to you. People like you taught me and will always..its your grin when I slip  on the shit my ego makes...lol...yer grin says it all..part wolf part Beauceron.

Regards, Canaan Dog 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a lot of propaganda against Muslims is true and is also true that some areas there they live like in the middle ages with barbaric practices but:

600 years after the founding of Christianity Islam was formed. Where was Christianity 600 years ago ? Judaism had as well way more time to reform.

Like my Muslim friend says, the way to progress in the Middle East is to let us fight it out how you Europeans did it and then we will come out better educated. You get tired fighting each other.

How can you do that when there is so much political interest in the region ? Oil ? Money ? Safety of Israel ? I am just stating the reality. So sure let's complain about the barbarism of some members of Islam but is not really only this.

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

There is a lot of propaganda against Muslims is true and is also true that some areas there they live like in the middle ages with barbaric practices but:

600 years after the founding of Christianity Islam was formed. Where was Christianity 600 years ago ? Judaism had as well way more time to reform.

Like my Muslim friend says, the way to progress in the Middle East is to let us fight it out how you Europeans did it and then we will come out better educated. You get tired fighting each other.

How can you do that when there is so much political interest in the region ? Oil ? Money ? Safety of Israel ? I am just stating the reality. So sure let's complain about the barbarism of some members of Islam but is not really only this.

I agree with this to a certain extent.  Where I differ is that Christianity and Judaism reformed without having any example to follow, without the benefit of knowing what we now know.  Islam - TODAY - has examples to follow in regards to treatment of women and human rights and has the benefit of modern-day knowledge, yet is extremely resistant to reform. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2020 at 1:54 PM, Marocc said:

I talk about Canada because this is a forum regarding Canada. If I want to talk about oppression or poverty in Africa, I don't bring it here to overly comfortable racists to "judge", which appears to be all they want to do – judge. No wonder you're so afraid of being judged.

That's the thing.  We're not afraid of being judged, especially not by fools and hypocrites.  

There's a reason why over 20% of our population is foreign-born and we're one of the largest per-capita destinations for immigrants in the world.  Clearly folks feel they're better off coming here than staying where they were.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Goddess said:

I agree with this to a certain extent.  Where I differ is that Christianity and Judaism reformed without having any example to follow, without the benefit of knowing what we now know.  Islam - TODAY - has examples to follow in regards to treatment of women and human rights and has the benefit of modern-day knowledge, yet is extremely resistant to reform. 

Just like the Catholic Church in Europe, many Islamic countries use the Sunni faith as a tool for control.  Information doesn't flow as freely in these places and is in fact actively suppressed.  They don't make popular uprisings like they used to either.  Simply put, it's not as easy to revolt as it was when soldiers could only fire one shot before they were engaged in hand-to-hand.  Ask how the Syrians are doing with their uprising.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Clearly folks feel they're better off coming here than staying where they were.  

Then there's the ads too. Canada is advertising itself as a place to live in. Don't ask me who profits from it the most.

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

popular uprisings

Are you talking about that time those 20,000-30,000 people were hanged in Iran? The word 'popular' is not what I would use. FYI, whenever something is about to remove what you think is a 'horrible, evil dictator, unsightly to the western democracies', the western democracies rush to rescue the dictator and his position in order to keep things the way they were; most profitable for the western democracies.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

There is a lot of propaganda against Muslims is true and is also true that some areas there they live like in the middle ages with barbaric practices but:

600 years after the founding of Christianity Islam was formed. Where was Christianity 600 years ago ? Judaism had as well way more time to reform.

Like my Muslim friend says, the way to progress in the Middle East is to let us fight it out how you Europeans did it and then we will come out better educated. You get tired fighting each other.

How can you do that when there is so much political interest in the region ? Oil ? Money ? Safety of Israel ? I am just stating the reality. So sure let's complain about the barbarism of some members of Islam but is not really only this.

I've seen this argument before, and it never really made much sense to me. It presumes any religion will start out utterly barbarous and only reform over many centuries. I've seen no evidence to support this. If we got back 500 years ago, Islam was probably less barbaric than Christianity. It had its so-called golden age then. Meanwhile the Christians of Europe were starting up various Inquisitions. But it seems that over the centuries Christianity reformed and became less violent while Islam never lost its determination to expand by force. Nor did it ever reconsider or remove some of the more brutal and barbaric laws and punishments. I mean, Christianity was executing heretics 500 years ago too, but it stopped doing that quite some time ago. Much of the Muslim world still has the death penalty for blaspheme. Or for other horrible crimes, like, say, homosexuality.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Marocc said:

Then there's the ads too. Canada is advertising itself as a place to live in. Don't ask me who profits from it the most.

Pretty sure that it's immigration companies and consultants are advertising.

Edited by Argus
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2020 at 1:54 PM, Marocc said:

I talk about Canada because this is a forum regarding Canada. If I want to talk about oppression or poverty in Africa, I don't bring it here to overly comfortable racists to "judge", which appears to be all they want to do – judge. No wonder you're so afraid of being judged.

You start a troll topic with the question "Why are Canadians so racist", presenting no evidence, by the way, and then you snivel about other people being judgemental?

Why are Canadians "so" racist? Compared to what? "Don't make comparisons!" you cry.

Which just reinforces my belief this is nothing but a troll thread so you can insult Canadians.

Because you're an outsider and always will be, unwelcome and foreign.

Edited by Argus
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Marocc said:

Are you talking about that time those 20,000-30,000 people were hanged in Iran? The word 'popular' is not what I would use. FYI, whenever something is about to remove what you think is a 'horrible, evil dictator, unsightly to the western democracies', the western democracies rush to rescue the dictator and his position in order to keep things the way they were; most profitable for the western democracies.

Why is it that some people that flee oppression and terrible systems after a few years in the west they start complaining about the system here ? 

The nation is like a house. Canada is a house, you or your family made a decision to come here like my family. Why is it that your instinct is to change and criticize the house ? and is not to adapt to how the house is ? Because contrary to other houses I think Canada is too welcoming.

Stop complaining. Get a job (any work is decent, I started lifting boxes and working in greenhouses), pay your taxes and pass something positive to someone else. Is hard to do that when all day you are surrounded by people that tell you the reason you are not doing well is because of R A C I S M. They grow rich and you stay down being satisfied with that excuse.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Marocc said:

Then there's the ads too. Canada is advertising itself as a place to live in. Don't ask me who profits from it the most.

It's not like we live in a vacuum.  Many of the people coming over are joining family that already live here.  You don't think they'd give a bit of a warning if things weren't actually better than whatever disaster they came from?  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Just like the Catholic Church in Europe, many Islamic countries use the Sunni faith as a tool for control.  Information doesn't flow as freely in these places and is in fact actively suppressed.  They don't make popular uprisings like they used to either.  Simply put, it's not as easy to revolt as it was when soldiers could only fire one shot before they were engaged in hand-to-hand.  Ask how the Syrians are doing with their uprising.  

I'm talking mostly about immigrants and refugees.  The ones who cling to antiquated religious beliefs like complete covering of women, subjugation of women (not letting them out of the house very often and not unless totally covered) and then come here and complain about "half-naked women" running around and how it inconveniences and disgusts them.  I'm talking about how they come to a country where their women and girls can be educated and do more with their lives than just be breeders, and they don't take advantage of those freedoms and in fact often denigrate the country for giving females the opportunity.  Ones who come here and complain that there are street musicians and feel they have the right to block streets for praying.  There is a plethora of evidence to show that these types of religious views have absolutely no benefit to humankind and even if they do not have access to this knowledge before they come - they certainly do once they get here.  If you want to have little girls not allowed out of the house or properly educated or want all women to wear blankets over their heads and still feel that men have the right to subjugate women, if you send your girls back to whatever hellhole you came from to be genitally mutilated because it's not allowed here - then why are they coming here at all?  I'm sure they ALL know that they are not going to find this type of religious fanaticism in mainstream Canada.  So why complain about it and fight it once they get here?  It makes no sense to me.  Unless they're just here for the free money and have a desire to change Canada into the monstrocities they left - but again - why bother coming here?

 

Edited by Goddess
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Goddess said:

I'm talking about how they come to a country where their women and girls can be educated and do more with their lives than just be breeders, and they don't take advantage of those freedoms and in fact often denigrate the country for giving females the opportunity. 

I remember a time when we discussed a newspaper article that featured a family of Muslim immigrants, including a young woman who talked about her plans for post-secondary education. 

But you weren't having it: she was wearing a hijab, and she'd never be allowed to do anything but be a breeder, you said.  Of course, millions of women around the world earn their degrees while wearing a hijab, they work as teachers, doctors, nurses, scientists-even as heads of State - all while having their hair covered.  Still, you ignored all of that and even though you knew nothing about her, her family's values, their history or their hopes and dreams, You simply dismissed her ability to be anything *but* a breeder because she wore a hijab. You predicted her entire life based on an article of clothing and in contradiction of every educated and professional hijab-wearing woman in the world.  How are you different than the people you complain about?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I remember a time when we discussed a newspaper article that featured a family of Muslim immigrants, including a young woman who talked about her plans for post-secondary education. 

But you weren't having it: she was wearing a hijab, and she'd never be allowed to do anything but be a breeder, you said.  Of course, millions of women around the world earn their degrees while wearing a hijab, they work as teachers, doctors, nurses, scientists-even as heads of State - all while having their hair covered.  Still, you ignored all of that and even though you knew nothing about her, her family's values, their history or their hopes and dreams, You simply dismissed her ability to be anything *but* a breeder because she wore a hijab. You predicted her entire life based on an article of clothing and in contradiction of every educated and professional hijab-wearing woman in the world.  How are you different than the people you complain about?  

Only your twisted interpretation of the conversation.  Go away.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/29/2020 at 2:28 PM, Goddess said:

I'm talking mostly about immigrants and refugees.  The ones who cling to antiquated religious beliefs like complete covering of women, subjugation of women (not letting them out of the house very often and not unless totally covered) and then come here and complain about "half-naked women" running around and how it inconveniences and disgusts them.  I'm talking about how they come to a country where their women and girls can be educated and do more with their lives than just be breeders, and they don't take advantage of those freedoms and in fact often denigrate the country for giving females the opportunity.  Ones who come here and complain that there are street musicians and feel they have the right to block streets for praying.  There is a plethora of evidence to show that these types of religious views have absolutely no benefit to humankind and even if they do not have access to this knowledge before they come - they certainly do once they get here.  If you want to have little girls not allowed out of the house or properly educated or want all women to wear blankets over their heads and still feel that men have the right to subjugate women, if you send your girls back to whatever hellhole you came from to be genitally mutilated because it's not allowed here - then why are they coming here at all?  I'm sure they ALL know that they are not going to find this type of religious fanaticism in mainstream Canada.  So why complain about it and fight it once they get here?  It makes no sense to me.  Unless they're just here for the free money and have a desire to change Canada into the monstrocities they left - but again - why bother coming here?

 

No doubt there are some people like coming to Canada.  There are also white anglo deadbeat dads who abuse their daughters and wives and they're just as bad or worse.  

Honestly though it seems weird to me that some people in the West get themselves so twisted up over what some Muslim women where on their heads.  Most of them don't even know what a hjab is.  That word is just a rallying cry for the same old tired anti-Muslim rhetoric.  Do you really find headscarves threatening?  

No doubt you're more concerned with the niqab, and while I at least understand the suspicion around that (not agree, mind you), there's a bit more to it than just a barbaric repression of womanhood.  As a secular person, I don't really like it and DO agree that it's silly and backwards and totally impractical, but then from what I've read not every woman who wears it resents it.  

DUSTY-MAUVE-Haute-Hijab-Day-57663-2_1024x1024.jpg

s-l400.jpg

Edited by Moonbox
Added image
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Do you really find headscarves threatening?  

No doubt you're more concerned with the niqab

No, I don't find headscarves threatening.  I've stated many times that they can be a cultural thing and in that sense, can be quite pretty.  I don't agree with young girls being forced to wear them.  They are not making the choice and I don't agree with forced wearing of them - husbands and fathers who don't allow their daughters and wives to go to school, university,  have a job or leave  the house without them.

Yes, the niqab I view as barbaric.

My views on headcoverings match quite closely to Marina Lazreg's thoughts in the book "Questioning the Veil".  She's a Muslim woman, well-traveled and I defer to her insights on the topic of "choice". (I started a thread based on the book and quoted portions of her essays, if you care to read them.)

Edited by Goddess
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we disagree on much on this matter then.  Even with the niqab, however, it can be a choice.  I can't imagine many women would choose it without buying into some sort of strict religion, but it could still be a choice. 

With regards to women being forced to do anything, there's precious little Canada can do about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or even Russia when it comes to women's rights.  There's very little we can do even here when it comes to a parent and their children and what they make them do.  If a parent wants to dress their kid up in liederhosen and send them to school, we pretty much just have to feel sorry for that kid.  

Mind you there aren't many parents who would do that, and hardly any in Canada that force their daughters to go to highschool wearing a niqab, though I guess there are some.  Even so, there are legal limits to what a parent could do to force their daughter to wear it anyways.  She has to go to school, and if she takes the niqab off at school, what then?  Grounding over the weekend?  If she's forced to wear the niqab I very much doubt that her weekends were exciting anyways.  No, in Canada there's very, very little adherence to the niqab, though I suppose there are some areas where it's more common.  

One of the few things that I've loved from the Trudeau government so far was taking in Rahaf al-quun when she fled her parents in Saudi Arabia.  That Trudeau finally taking a visible, clear stance for something, and it was really easy to get behind.  

Edited by Moonbox
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

No doubt there are some people like coming to Canada.  There are also white anglo deadbeat dads who abuse their daughters and wives and they're just as bad or worse.  

Do you believe we should be bringing in more deadbeat dads who abuse their wives and daughters?

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Honestly though it seems weird to me that some people in the West get themselves so twisted up over what some Muslim women where on their heads.  Most of them don't even know what a hjab is.  That word is just a rallying cry for the same old tired anti-Muslim rhetoric.  Do you really find headscarves threatening?  

According to the last survey 62% of Muslim women now wear some form of head covering in Canada. That number is up from 52% ten years earlier. Wearing this religious gear is, to me, a repudiation of everything secular, a statement made by the wearer that they are a Muslim first, and adhere to conservative Muslim teachings. And nothing we know about conservative Muslim teachings is good. Most of it is extremely hostile to us, our values and our beliefs.

So it is not the actual garment that I don't like. It is what it says about the person wearing it and their beliefs and values.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I don't think we disagree on much on this matter then.  Even with the niqab, however, it can be a choice.  I can't imagine many women would choose it without buying into some sort of strict religion, but it could still be a choice. 

With regards to women being forced to do anything, there's precious little Canada can do about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or even Russia when it comes to women's rights.  There's very little we can do even here when it comes to a parent and their children and what they make them do.  If a parent wants to dress their kid up in liederhosen and send them to school, we pretty much just have to feel sorry for that kid.  

Mind you there aren't many parents who would do that, and hardly any in Canada that force their daughters to go to highschool wearing a niqab, though I guess there are some.  Even so, there are legal limits to what a parent could do to force their daughter to wear it anyways.  She has to go to school, and if she takes the niqab off at school, what then?  Grounding over the weekend?  If she's forced to wear the niqab I very much doubt that her weekends were exciting anyways.  No, in Canada there's very, very little adherence to the niqab, though I suppose there are some areas where it's more common.  

One of the few things that I've loved from the Trudeau government so far was taking in Rahaf al-quun when she fled her parents in Saudi Arabia.  That Trudeau finally taking a visible, clear stance for something, and it was really easy to get behind.  

With respect to your comments I agree. I do wish to expand though in regards to your last two sentences I too believe the sentiment behind the decision  was well meant, but may I respectfully express why from a legal perspective it was ill conceived. 

I would contend it opens the possibility that ANY  woman, as well as any Muslim woman in the world who disagrees with  her parents and her parents views on how she should behave should be accepted as a refugee. 

I say this because the grounds why this woman was granted refugee status was NOT clearly enunciated except for a very general vague reference that invites others to try the same argument now. Making matters worse, the Foreign Minister personally interceding  to say the young woman reminded her of her own daughter. That comment although  probably unintended showed an unacceptable bias inappropriate for making decisions as to when someone should be eligibile as a refugee and it made it public making a mockery of refugee law. Under no circumstance can a politician claim they made a decision based on a personal bias, i.e,  reminding Trudeau or his Ministers of your  own children should not get you get special treatment. Good intentions when not thought out create legal conflicts down the road.

That said  yes we do have current refugee laws defined under two treaties, one for "protection" from unfair laws in other countries, the other from persecution based on political beliefs, religion ethnicity and/or membership in a social group includes gender). Our determination of who is a refugee is supposed to be based on evidence of such, i.e.., discrimination based on gender. That is a pretty broad concept  and so I would caution if you do not clearly define it could be argued in theory by every woman on this planet to come to Canada as a refugee.  What made this particular woman's case so much more important than any other woman's?  Why was the Foreign Minister even involved? It was a refugee board eligibility issue that should should remain distinct and separate from any government influence. This just showed yet again Trudeau's givernment has no understanding of why the government of the day should never lend to the appearance or actively engage in any direct influence of a court or tribunal decision.

We do have a category called humanitarian and compassionate grounds which is a vague catch 22 concept that allows anyone to argue they should come to Canada for pretty much anything they can argue makes it compelling to come here but that discretionary power if overly used undermines the rest of the immigration processes.

So do not get me wrong, I support Godess on her comments and you,  and I do not defend discrimination against women, but our system  not can protect everyone on the planet. We have to draw a line and this case didn't draw a line, it opened up a poorly conceived loophole for entry.

There are limits to the righteousness Canada thinks it displays in its refugee laws ironically created to try prove it is not racist.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Argus said:

So it is not the actual garment that I don't like. It is what it says about the person wearing it and their beliefs and values.

Which exists mainly in your head and you glue it with your imagination to the individual you happen to be seeing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Which exists mainly in your head and you glue it with your imagination to the individual you happen to be seeing.

Historically, both garments (hijabs and burkas) have the purpose of denigrating and subjugating women, separating human beings by gender in order to keep women under male domination and under religious control.  They have both proven detrimental to women, to children, to men and boys and to the societies that use them for their intended purpose.

So no, it's not "all in his head".

I don't think too many people are uncomfortable with a woman in a hijab who looks like she is also enjoying the freedoms and benefits of Western culture while honouring her cultural heritage.  It bothers people to see a woman completely covered up and clearly being subjugated  BECAUSE she is a woman - that indicates a set of beliefs and values that is at cross purposes with Western values of gender equality.  That some women "choose" this, does not make it any less denigrating to anyone of the female gender.  When women choose a garment that advocates her supposed lower status in society - it affects ALL women. So it is important that when a woman chooses such a controversial garment with such a bloody history, she understands completely the choice she is making, WHY she is making that choice and how it will affect herself and other women.  I find this educating oneself before making the "choice" to wear these garments, quite lacking.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Announcements




×
×
  • Create New...