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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Which exists mainly in your head and you glue it with your imagination to the individual you happen to be seeing.

What exists in my head with regard to Islam are the many passages I've read, the interpretation of them by many Muslims I've read and seen and heard, and by non-Muslim scholars and men more intelligent than I who seem to be pretty level-headed. Not to mention the behaviour of the world's Muslim countries, their societies and values, and the extreme violence which continually comes out of the Muslim world.

None of which has anything to do with racism. It has to do with my judgement, as the product of a conservative liberal society, on people who espouse beliefs and values I regard as medieval and dangerous.

 

Edited by Argus
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Canada is one of the LEAST racist countries in the world and actively works at stamping it out.  Why would you be overly concerned about racism in Canada when the MOST racist countries are Middle

This is like asking why some Canadians steal, or rape, or murder.

Probably similar to the reasons some Muslims are so loud about their hatred of non-Muslims, gays, Jews, etc.

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53 minutes ago, Argus said:

None of which has anything to do with racism

I didn't think so. I never brought it up here.

54 minutes ago, Argus said:

What exists in my head with regard to Islam are the many passages I've read, the interpretation of them by many Muslims I've read and seen and heard, and by non-Muslim scholars and men more intelligent than I who seem to be pretty level-headed. Not to mention the behaviour of the world's Muslim countries, their societies and values, and the extreme violence which continually comes out of the Muslim world.

If one wanted to be naive, one could think that if the information one gets comes from many different directions and from different people with different motives, one would be led to the truth.

Even that can hardly be your excuse. You've been hating for too long.

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

I don't think too many people are uncomfortable with a woman in a hijab who looks like she is also enjoying the freedoms and benefits of Western culture while honouring her cultural heritage. 

If "enjoying the freedoms and benefits of Western culture while honouring her cultural heritage" looks the way I imagine it looks like to so many islamophobes, racists and other intolerant and narrow-minded individuals, then I would probably be a bit uncomfortable. I dislike it when some women make hijab a piece of cloth, wrapped negligently around one's head, indifferent to whether it actually covers the hair, chest, neck or the ears and indifferent to what other body parts should be covered.

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

When women choose a garment that advocates her supposed lower status in society - it affects ALL women.

I absolutely agree — which is why I am requesting all women to please put some clothes on.

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8 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I dislike it when some women make hijab a piece of cloth, wrapped negligently around one's head, indifferent to whether it actually covers the hair, chest, neck or the ears and indifferent to what other body parts should be covered.

Yes, you've said so already.  I obviously disagree with you on the issue of whether women should be covered, how much and the reasons why.

I hope that when you go out in your burka, that you are not harassed or verbally abused.

Subjugation of women is not something I personally support, however.  Not for culture, not for religion, not for family.  Women as second class citizens is not a belief or value of mine.

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8 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I absolutely agree — which is why I am requesting all women to please put some clothes on.

It works both ways. I would rather see women scantily clad than see them having their entire being, personality and psyche obliterated and relegated to nothingness.  But that's just me.

What are your reasons for believing women need to be covered from head to toe?

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24 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I absolutely agree — which is why I am requesting all women to please put some clothes on.

If they are naked in public I agree, not cool, otherwise exactly who do you want putting more clothes on; what would you like to see covered, legs, arms what?

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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

If one wanted to be naive, one could think that if the information one gets comes from many different directions and from different people with different motives, one would be led to the truth.

As compared to getting it from a single person?

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Even that can hardly be your excuse. You've been hating for too long.

I don't hate Muslims. I deeply disapprove of Islam, its philosophy, and its values. I think it's all barbaric, brutal and backward. The sort of thing a barbarian warrior prince would come up with a thousand years ago.

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1 hour ago, scribblet said:

If they are naked in public I agree, not cool, otherwise exactly who do you want putting more clothes on; what would you like to see covered, legs, arms what?

It all depends on context, but yep, basically both — however, skinny jeans don't cover anything.

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

As compared to getting it from a single person?

As compared to making sure you're getting correct information and not expecting many sources = must be true if they all agree.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I don't hate Muslims.

I didn't say you do. I think I've brought it up before: one can hate ideologies as well, among other things.

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

I hope that when you go out in your burka, that you are not harassed or verbally abused.

I think I've brought it up before, but I don't wear a burqa.

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

What are your reasons for believing women need to be covered from head to toe?

If this question refers to all women and 'head to toe' refers to a burqa, then I don't think so. As for the religious obligation for women, it only applies to believers.

However, I do believe, dressing as a slut to a job at an office on a daily basis, does something awful to the society as a whole if it has thousands of individuals doing the same.

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17 minutes ago, Marocc said:

It all depends on context, but yep, basically both — however, skinny jeans don't cover anything.

Context..   okay how about the average female walking around in public, do you think arms and legs should be fully covered even in the summer? 

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17 minutes ago, Marocc said:

dressing as a slut to a job at an office on a daily basis

I imagine your idea of "dressing as a slut" is different than most.

Most offices have some sort of dress code and also most would speak  to someone who wasn't dressing respectfully at work and making others uncomfortable.

Assuming someone is a "slut" based on how they are dressed would be the same as assuming someone in a hijab is a terrorist.

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2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I imagine your idea of "dressing as a slut" is different than most.

Most offices have some sort of dress code and also most would speak  to someone who wasn't dressing respectfully at work and making others uncomfortable.

Yes, but women are allowed to show their knees! Aaagh!

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4 hours ago, Argus said:

I deeply disapprove of Islam, its philosophy, and its values. I think it's all barbaric, brutal and backward. The sort of thing a barbarian warrior prince would come up with a thousand years ago.

It figures.  Then too, you're the same person who has no problem with your evil Dem party punishing a Black Dem politician for seeking bipartisanship in our nation's COVID 19 fight.

Therefore it makes total sense here, that you would do something asinine, like group all of Islam in the same category ---instead of fairly/veraciously distinguishing the Jihadist (barbaric, brutal and backward) mentality from that mentality of peaceful, loving Islamists such as Obama or Ilhan Omar or Elijah Cummings or @Marocc ... Your colossal unfairness here, was inspired by the Dems you support.

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1 hour ago, Tdot said:

It figures.  Then too, you're the same person who has no problem with your evil Dem party punishing a Black Dem politician for seeking bipartisanship in our nation's COVID 19 fight.

Therefore it makes total sense here, that you would do something asinine, like group all of Islam in the same category ---instead of fairly/veraciously distinguishing the Jihadist (barbaric, brutal and backward) mentality from that mentality of peaceful, loving Islamists such as Obama or Ilhan Omar or Elijah Cummings or @Marocc ... Your colossal unfairness here, was inspired by the Dems you support.

I agree with this.  Any Muslim who does not believe blasphemers, apostates and/or adulterers should be punished, women should do as they are told, homosexual relations should be banned, etc, is okay by me.  I can never agree with those who would lump them in with the barbaric, brutal and backward rest of them.

Which Obama?

Edited by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Except those that don't.- Not quite Blaise Pascal
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I imagine your idea of "dressing as a slut" is different than most.

Maybe, but there's different levels to it. I created an impression with one strong word so I didn't have to describe further.

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

Assuming someone is a "slut" based on how they are dressed

That would be silly. Most people who dress like it are just trying to look like one. They don't actually want to be one.

52 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yes, but women are allowed to show their knees!

Well, yes, I would deem it inappropriate if I had to be a client to someone wearing a skirt that doesn't cover her knees. I'm not referring to someone selling news papers, but to someone working in a bank for example.

When I say I deem it inappropriate, I don't mean that it is an "issue" for me. It is not. It is simply something that is likely to cross my mind.

3 hours ago, scribblet said:

Context..   okay how about the average female walking around in public, do you think arms and legs should be fully covered even in the summer? 

If "should" refers vaguely to my preferences, yes. If it refers to "they should be made to wear more clothes", no.

The sun can cause harm and many people burn their skins carelessly, apparently unaware of how dangerous it can be. In the summer, I do often wish this or that individual had more clothes on because it hurts me just to look at their skin and how they're still standing in the sun.

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22 minutes ago, Marocc said:

That would be silly. Most people who dress like it are just trying to look like one. They don't actually want to be one.

How would you differentiate between someone who was dressing to appear as though they wanted many casual sexual partners, and someone who just wanted to be comfortable and also, perhaps, thumb their noses at anyone who judged them based on how they dressed?

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5 hours ago, scribblet said:

If they are naked in public I agree, not cool, otherwise exactly who do you want putting more clothes on; what would you like to see covered, legs, arms what?

Maybe that is the problem , perhaps we should all be naked, in some cultures being naked is very natural , in a lot of European countries, even African countries going topples is nothing, I mean todays bikini's don't leave much to the imagination anyways … going to a spa and getting naked in a group setting is just another example.... you don't find them staring or leering….everyone likes a nice bum, but staring is just creepy.... 

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On 4/26/2020 at 11:08 AM, WestCanMan said:

I only read two sentences and I have come realize that I’m dealing with an idealist with no grasp of reality whatsoever. 
 

Keep smoking weed and singing Kumbaya bro. Just ignore all evidence on the planet and virtue signal like a champ. Because it’s 2015. Close enough. Right?

Read some history, psychology, and anthropology, then you'll have some grounding before getting up on your soapbox and trying to pontificate about human nature. Then you'll understand that capitalism is a perverted economic system that values the worst aspects of human nature....the stuff we have to set aside during times like this as we become 'socialists' on the local level at least, and try to look out for others. That is why, faced with a pandemic, it's the capitalist nations like the US of A, that are going to shit. Because, during a health crisis like this, you need healthcare systems that treat the sick, prevent the spread of dangerous diseases, because it's to everyone's benefit if nobody and no population is carrying a disease and can't be treated or afford to be treated!

That's why the billionaires were the first to flee New York and other business centers as soon as the Covid-19 got out of control in Europe and the US, and started holding their meetings on Zoom. Capitalism means the pandemic gets bigger and takes longer to get under control than it does in more socialistic societies, where the first priority is public health/not the health of banks and major corporations!

And,  there are many of us who are frontline workers in a range of fields, who have no choice other than to work directly with people who may be exposed to this virus, and do what we can to try to protect ourselves, and our families....who we do not want to bring it home to also! 

And on the bottom rungs of the work ladder are people who are doing REAL work...not fiddling on their computers or trying to sell shit online instead of in person.....those who have to work as delivery drivers, grocery stores, food prep, meat processing plants and other industries declared as essential...they have to go out and do it everyday for less money than they should be earning, especially during a time like this! The capitalists who grab the lion's share of the returns do not do real work! And that's why....especially doing a 3 trillion money grab in the US, they're anxious to get the real workers out there again and make the economy run....pandemic or not!

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10 hours ago, Marocc said:

As compared to making sure you're getting correct information and not expecting many sources = must be true if they all agree.

I didn't say you do. I think I've brought it up before: one can hate ideologies as well, among other things.

I think I've brought it up before, but I don't wear a burqa.

If this question refers to all women and 'head to toe' refers to a burqa, then I don't think so. As for the religious obligation for women, it only applies to believers.

However, I do believe, dressing as a slut to a job at an office on a daily basis, does something awful to the society as a whole if it has thousands of individuals doing the same.

From what little I know of how Muslim women are expected to dress in public, it is mostly taken from cultural context/not verses in the Quran or Hadiths etc. 

So, when it comes to women veiling or wearing niqaabs or burqas, it was already widespread Arabic and MidEast and Mediterranean  cultures in ancient times, that women....especially of higher status or class, covered their hair and veiled their faces when out in public. So, this goes back long before the 7th century and the time of Muhammed. 

In more recent history, most women did not cover their faces in Egypt back when the French and English were barnstorming through trying to add Egypt to their growing list of colonies. And in the coastal Arabian cities, women 2 or 3 centuries ago were described as wearing long, colorful dresses.....not all black as since the rise of the Wahabbi clerics.

If everyone, including women, got to wear whatever they feel comfortable wearing, there would be a lot less drama involved in this topic! Especially if it's men, as I noticed previously, stating how they prefer women to wear less clothing than more. 

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21 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

So, when it comes to women veiling or wearing niqaabs or burqas, it was already widespread Arabic and MidEast and Mediterranean  cultures in ancient times, that women....especially of higher status or class, covered their hair and veiled their faces when out in public. So, this goes back long before the 7th century and the time of Muhammed. 

Islam is not something that started from the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). Isa [Jesus] (alaihi salam) was Muslim, Musa (alaihi salam) was Muslim and Abraham (alaihi salam) was Muslim. The Old Testament today commands women to either cover their head or shave their hair. The New Testament prescribes covering the head to church at least.

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6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

you don't find them staring or leering

You mean you don't find them staring and leering?

Not enough sexual assaults yet? Not enough involuntary pornograpic pictures?

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6 hours ago, bcsapper said:

How would you differentiate between someone who was dressing to appear as though they wanted many casual sexual partners, and someone who just wanted to be comfortable and also, perhaps, thumb their noses at anyone who judged them based on how they dressed?

I don't differentiate. It is none of my business.

It is vain to provoke people simply to disapprove of their reactions. In fact, it is rude.

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I am afraid in Canada we are becoming tolerant to intolerance. Just the fact that the above individual is talking about how women should dress shows you no matter how kind, welcoming and understanding we are in this country some people insist to bring their medieval beliefs in. And what is shocking, do you know who defends people like Marocc, social studies students that call themselves feminists, they smoke a few joints and they call you a racist for pointing that out.

I am a positive person and I will end with this: When you take the TTC daily to work for years you see stuff, I remember this one day I was sitting across from this mom (in hijab) with 2 kids. The 2 kids were talking perfect English and were showing the mom how to use a dictionary app on a tablet to translate from Arabic to English. Everyone was smiling around, I was thinking to myself this is Canada man. 

@Marocc

I guess when your expectations are so high and you come here thinking you will be like a CEO or something is probably easier to deal with it by taking refuge in whatever program you were brainwashed when you were young.

Edited by Independent1986
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4 hours ago, Marocc said:

I don't differentiate. It is none of my business.

It is vain to provoke people simply to disapprove of their reactions. In fact, it is rude.

It's a forum.  It's neither vain nor rude to call people out for stupid comments or opinions.  It happens all the time.

What made you think I was going to disapprove of your reaction.  I don't at all.

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