Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

Canadians Need to Support Trump


Recommended Posts

On 5/2/2020 at 2:10 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump can and will very much take credit for it...as he should.   The U.S. wanted to remain insular before both world wars, but the allied belligerents insisted on getting the Americans on side, with the resulting superpower emerging from a destroyed Europe and Japan.   Implicit in your response is the possible American choice to also pull back, something that NATO and other nations do not want to happen, so there is an expectation (i.e. "Grand Bargain").

Trump tries to take credit for everything he can, but that doesn't mean it's deserved.  "Not" getting yourself involved in a war is obviously better than going out and looking for one, like Bush, but we pretty much have to go back to Vietnam to find examples like him.  

Of course America can choose to pull back.  Nobody can stop them.  The point is that's not really going to happen.  The USA has too many fingers in too many different pies and they've shaped large parts of the world under their influence to suit them.  Truly "pulling back" means giving that up, but Trump will never acknowledge or say that.  He'll tell you America can have its cake and eat it too.

Quote

The Iran nuclear deal was roundly criticized in the United States long before Trump.   The previous stance and sanctions were for obvious reasons...regime change in Iran.   Obama bypassed the Congress, adding more political fuel to the dumpster fire.  

and how's the "regime change" been going?  40+ years of sanctions and isolation and the Ayatollah still reigns Supreme.  It's convenient to forget how the Islamic Republic was founded in the first place though, isn't it? American foreign policy in the area has been a long-running comedy of debacles going back that far.  I agree that Obama overstepped and his policies contributed to Trump's election, but walking away from that nuclear deal wasn't just returning to the status-quo.  It made things worse than they ever were.  Regime change is now less likely than ever because as far as the Iranians know, their leadership made big good-faith concessions to the USA and shortly thereafter they had their faces spat in.  

Quote

 

Really ?   What do you think happens in Canada when the ruling government changes hands between the Liberals and Conservatives ?   Wholesale changes follow with sweeping policy reversals, that's what.

Trump was elected to break things, just as he promised he would do.    And yes, Americans are more than willing to exercise their constitutional rights regardless of what other nations may think about it, same as their citizens do.

 

Yes, Canadian policy can swing back and forth, though the Westminster system has mechanisms to avoid the absurd deadlocks and fillibusters you end up with in the USA.  Another thing of obvious note is that Canada's policies have next to no geopolitical consequence or influence.  Domestic policy reversal is a very different thing than a foreign policy reversal, and the consequences are more out of your control and thus require additional consideration.  

Quote

 

No, Trump can claim that manufacturing jobs grew more than under Obama.   More corporations and capital were repatriated.   Executive orders and tax legislation cleared away regulation and red tape and increased domestic investment.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/479579-trumps-big-reelection-weapon-a-remarkable-manufacturing-jobs-boom

 

That's a rubbish hack-job of an article that cherry-picks and misuses the the data.  The comparison uses 2007-2017 as the timeline to compare Obama with Trump's post-2017 economic growth.  A few things of obvious note are:

1)  Obama wasn't elected until 2008 and Trump was elected in 2016

2)  It runs Obama through the worst recession in 80 years - a recession he did nothing to cause.  

3)  Trump inherited a booming economy nearing the end of a cycle of expansion and then injected steroids into it with tax cuts etc.  

Why don't we run this comparison in 8 months?  That'd be fair according to you I suppose?  Actually why don't we run Obama's numbers from the bottom of the recession to when he left office?  

Regardless, nothing in that article addressed Trump's poor trade policy, which saw manufacturing shrink in the USA for the first time in 10 years despite everything else looking great.  Rust-belt manufacturing jobs have been LOST since the steel and aluminum tariffs were implemented.  His economic policies suck, though he is good at framing them as "great" successes.  

 

 

Edited by Moonbox
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

And his sudden interest in blaming China is coming about because HE is being blamed for screwing up the pandemic response and can't figure a way to blame the Democrats. God knows he has to find someon

Yes and no...Europe did "listen to him" concerning increased NATO spending, ISIS engagement, import tariffs, and unfettered immigration (indirectly).   Trump remains hated for other policies from clim

I am no fan of Donald Trump. but it looks like he's getting ready to go after China... We need to show our American friends all the solidarity we can muster. Make a choice... Would you rather go after

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Trump tries to take credit for everything he can, but that doesn't mean it's deserved.  "Not" getting yourself involved in a war is obviously better than going out and looking for one, like Bush, but we pretty much have to go back to Vietnam to find examples like him. 

Of course America can choose to pull back.  Nobody can stop them.  The point is that's not really going to happen.  The USA has too many fingers in too many different pies and they've shaped large parts of the world under their influence to suit them.  Truly "pulling back" means giving that up, but Trump will never acknowledge or say that.  He'll tell you America can have its cake and eat it too.

 

Doesn't matter....all U.S. presidents will take credit and receive blame...deserved or not.   Trump is just another U.S. president, and it is election season.

The U.S. has pulled back from a leadership role, even before Trump, resulting in such words as a "vacuum" needing to be filled by others.   Chrystia Freeland begged Trump to reconsider his stance....guess she believed him.

 

Quote

and how's the "regime change" been going?  40+ years of sanctions and isolation and the Ayatollah still reigns Supreme.  It's convenient to forget how the Islamic Republic was founded in the first place though, isn't it? American foreign policy in the area has been a long-running comedy of debacles going back that far. 

 

Goes back farther than that (e.g. Saudi Arabia).   Israel is now a strong U.S. ally.   Several other ME nations are aligned with the U.S. vs. Iran, which is not laughing at the "comedy".     Leaving the Iran nuclear deal was "pulling back" from a previous U.S. position.

 

Quote

Yes, Canadian policy can swing back and forth, though the Westminster system has mechanisms to avoid the absurd deadlocks and fillibusters you end up with in the USA.  Another thing of obvious note is that Canada's policies have next to no geopolitical consequence or influence.  Domestic policy reversal is a very different thing than a foreign policy reversal, and the consequences are more out of your control and thus require additional consideration. 

 

The U.S. system is a design feature, not a bug, and most certainly can't be blamed on Trump...he just exploits it like many U.S. presidents.   The impact of Canada's flip-flops may not be very consequential to the world, but they still happen, as they do in many nations.

 

Quote

That's a rubbish hack-job of an article that cherry-picks and misuses the the data.  The comparison uses 2007-2017 as the timeline to compare Obama with Trump's post-2017 economic growth. 

Regardless, nothing in that article addressed Trump's poor trade policy, which saw manufacturing shrink in the USA for the first time in 10 years despite everything else looking great.  Rust-belt manufacturing jobs have been LOST since the steel and aluminum tariffs were implemented.  His economic policies suck, though he is good at framing them as "great" successes.  

 

The numbers are what they are and happened as reported.   Highest U.S. employment across all demographics in over 50 years.   Trump's rhetoric is secondary and purposely self-serving, same as any U.S. president.    He will succeed or fail for re-election based on "numbers", and then the history books will be written.  

Canada's bitching about steel and aluminum tariffs points to a dependency that is Canada's problem....not Trump's.

 

Quote

The Trump administration’s tariffs on aluminum imports are leading to new investment in what was a dying industry, according to a new report from the left-leaning Environmental Policy Institute.

The report found U.S. aluminum production is expected to increase 67 percent between 2017 and the end of this year because of increased investment. Trump imposed a 10 percent tariff on imported aluminum in June of this year.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/are-tariffs-boosting-the-u-s-aluminum-industry

 

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Goes back farther than that (e.g. Saudi Arabia).   Israel is now a strong U.S. ally.   Several other ME nations are aligned with the U.S. vs. Iran, which is not laughing at the "comedy".     Leaving the Iran nuclear deal was "pulling back" from a previous U.S. position.

Sort of the point.  None of the above was achieved by "pulling back" from international involvement.  It only took a couple of coups (failed or otherwise), a few US-led wars and billions in foreign aid/financing to achieve the beautiful and fully-functioning harmony of current Middle-East politics.  

Quote

The U.S. system is a design feature, not a bug, and most certainly can't be blamed on Trump...he just exploits it like many U.S. presidents.   The impact of Canada's flip-flops may not be very consequential to the world, but they still happen, as they do in many nations.

Totally agree. 

Quote

 

The numbers are what they are and happened as reported.   Highest U.S. employment across all demographics in over 50 years.   Trump's rhetoric is secondary and purposely self-serving, same as any U.S. president.    He will succeed or fail for re-election based on "numbers", and then the history books will be written.  

Canada's bitching about steel and aluminum tariffs points to a dependency that is Canada's problem....not Trump's.

 

Yeah...right.  Here!  Numbers!  Proof!  What do those numbers say?  Do they hold up to any scrutiny?  In your case, not at all.  

Regardless, those numbers are about to get really bad, really fast.  We're going to be looking at worst-ever earnings growth, worst-ever employment numbers, worst-ever deficits.  Obviously those aren't Trump's fault, but the markets were overheating before the crisis and he was feeding them unnecessary and unwarranted stimulus anyways.  We''re now seeing the shitty results of those policies with a bigger fall from the top, amplified debt and tons of uncertainty on top of the uncertainty and instability he was already creating.  

As for the steel and aluminum tariffs, those haven't hurt Canada - don't worry.  Those are commodities and they trade on the open market fine.  We can sell it to whoever and if the US wants to artificially make theirs more expensive, it's only themselves they hurt.  Even with the tariffs our aluminum was still competitive in the US, so all Trump did was make downstream domestic manufacturing more expensive and cost those companies an estimated 75,000 jobs. 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/steel-tariffs-hurt-manufacturers-downstream-data-shows

If the goal was to have a slogan to parade around with (US STEEL IS BACK!), then mission accomplished.  If the goal was sound economic policy, it's been a resounding failure, because even US Steel has collapsed on itself since then.  

 

Edited by Moonbox
Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Yeah...right.  Here!  Numbers!  Proof!  What do those numbers say?  Do they hold up to any scrutiny?  In your case, not at all.  

Regardless, those numbers are about to get really bad, really fast.  We're going to be looking at worst-ever earnings growth, worst-ever employment numbers, worst-ever deficits.  Obviously those aren't Trump's fault, but the markets were overheating before the crisis and he was feeding them unnecessary and unwarranted stimulus anyways.  We''re now seeing the shitty results of those policies with a bigger fall from the top, amplified debt and tons of uncertainty on top of the uncertainty and instability he was already creating. 

 

U.S. stimulus and low interest rates started long before Trump....the Fed was using quantitative easing for years.   Trump is also not the first U.S. president to lower taxes for economic development.    The public and private debt....the income inequality....the leveraging was all in place long before Trump became president, but suddenly he is the bad guy ?     This just reflects a personal animus, not objective reality.

And for the very same historical reasons, President Donald Trump will reap what any U.S. president would after an economic collapse, regardless of the cause.

 

Quote

As for the steel and aluminum tariffs, those haven't hurt Canada - don't worry.  Those are commodities and they trade on the open market fine.  We can sell it to whoever and if the US wants to artificially make theirs more expensive, it's only themselves they hurt.  Even with the tariffs our aluminum was still competitive in the US, so all Trump did was make downstream domestic manufacturing more expensive and cost those companies an estimated 75,000 jobs.

 

Then why did Canada bitch so much about it ?    Trump's decision did spur more steel and aluminum production in the U.S., and stopped some other trade games that were going on (dumping & transshipments), which was the goal.    It is not all about Canada...which was just part of the problem.

 

Quote

If the goal was to have a slogan to parade around with (US STEEL IS BACK!), then mission accomplished.  If the goal was sound economic policy, it's been a resounding failure, because even US Steel has collapsed on itself since then.  

 

It is both, and Trump will take credit no matter how large or small, same as any U.S. president.   The main point was to change the status quo.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not personal animus.  It's bad economics.  In a sense you're right though.  Policy has been overly accommodating ever since 2009.  Interest rates were never meant to stay this low for this long, but it's human nature to kick the can down the road.  Trump inherited an economy buoyed by this (along with previous administrations' collective failures), but then he doubled-down on it at the PEAK of the economic cycle.  Choosing to expand your deficits and amplify your economy at the top of a boom cycle is a relative waste.  There are diminishing returns on stimulus spending as the economy heads to full capacity.  We gave up Reaganomics for a reason, but Trump and his trade advisors seem to be living in the 1980's still. 

Quote

Then why did Canada bitch so much about it ?    Trump's decision did spur more steel and aluminum production in the U.S., and stopped some other trade games that were going on (dumping & transshipments), which was the goal.    It is not all about Canada...which was just part of the problem.

Forget about Canada.  The loudest complaints on the boneheaded steel/aluminum tariffs came from US manufacturers.  Ultimately I don't think folks were even really that worried that US/Canada trade would be fine.  It's probably the most balanced trade relationship in the world.  

As for their effectiveness, those tariffs were a massive flop.  US manufacturers ended up paying the majority of the price for the tariffs, and the amount of jobs and money lost from that paled in comparison to the puny and temporary bump in US steel production.  Of those new jobs, a lot of them have since been lost anyways.  

There are no doubt trade inequities that should be addressed, but throwing the baby out with the bath-water and playing wrecking-ball just for the sake of doing something was stupid and only hurt American business.  

Shaking things up is fine and was no doubt warranted, but he's doing more harm than good.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

...There are no doubt trade inequities that should be addressed, but throwing the baby out with the bath-water and playing wrecking-ball just for the sake of doing something was stupid and only hurt American business.  

Shaking things up is fine and was no doubt warranted, but he's doing more harm than good.  

 

Like you stated...it's relative.   Some U.S. business and globalism was more harm than good long before Trump, whose presidency is just a symptom of much larger and pre-existing issues.   Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Make a choice... Would you rather go after Trump, or would you rather go after China?

Neither.  That kind of binary choice   is not constructive.   Trump wants revenge.  he wants to distract from  his own failings.....and there have been many. Trump  can be too reactive....  and his gut   does him more harm than good.   The gut is not what is used in true and effective leadership. Such major  decisions should not be made  during an emotional time. This pandemic is a high stress time  on many levels.....and it will take some time for the  dust to settle.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Like you stated...it's relative.   Some U.S. business and globalism was more harm than good long before Trump, whose presidency is just a symptom of much larger and pre-existing issues.   Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

 

I'll certainly agree with Trump being a symptom of a more more pernicious disease.  I wince every time I hear someone around here talk about how "stupid" the Americans who voted for him are.  There are definitely a lot of obese Bubbas and Bubbettes at his rallies, and it's hard not to cringe when you hear them get interviewed, but then there are plenty of intelligent folk who voted for Trump knowing that he's an amoral asshole with a huge and fragile ego but also knowing that could shake things up.  I get it. 

If Trump is a symptom, however, he's one of many, but the scary part is that he's also the one who's been entrusted to treat a disease he doesn't even understand.   If America has the equivalent of Lyme disease Trump is offering blood-letting and electro-shock as the cure.  It's a terrible analogy, but the point is that his solutions are directed at treating symptoms and they cause more harm than good.  Although remedies are needed, quack cures don't help. 

If he's a one-and-done President, I hope that he's at LAST awoken lawmakers around the world  to the fact that Liberalism in the Western world has over-stepped.  I'm not talking about large Rights issues like gay-marriage or abortion, but rather the bending backwards politicians have been doing to avoid "offending" minorities and the exercises in guilt over colonialism/imperialism etc...He's made it clear that Americans aren't willing to eat a raw deal for the sake of feeling good about themselves, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

If he's a one-and-done President, I hope that he's at LAST awoken lawmakers around the world  to the fact that Liberalism in the Western world has over-stepped.  I'm not talking about large Rights issues like gay-marriage or abortion, but rather the bending backwards politicians have been doing to avoid "offending" minorities and the exercises in guilt over colonialism/imperialism etc...He's made it clear that Americans aren't willing to eat a raw deal for the sake of feeling good about themselves, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

I think Trump's greatest achievement is that he's woken most serious lawmakers around the world to what a shit-disturbing unstable partner the US truly is to try and deal with. Of course Trump is a symptom, I was writing years ago that someone like him was on the horizon and how the face they'd put on America would be exactly what the world needed to see and once and for realize it was time for new alliances shaped around global values that are grounded in people's lives as opposed to some wannabe empire's cult of exceptionalism.

Go Trump go...4 more years...really bring it home.

And lest anyone imagine this means I support some sort of new lefty international alignment emerging around China's rise I suspect COVID-19 is awakening a lot of humanity to the dangers posed by the rise of any super-power particularly when its a dictatorship.  I'd be more worried about a future co-Dominium of super-powers based on values they share in the face of a growing global disdain for them.

Edited by eyeball
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

@Moonbox

So you remain convinced a hegemon of gender-bending apologetic progressives is the global threat everyone will be concerned about?  Now that's funny. 

 

Nobody said it was a global threat.  It's apparent, however, that North Americans and Europeans have grown tired and frustrated with outward-looking moral righteousness at the expense of kitchen-table economics.  Look no further than the Ontario Liberals' implosion in the face (of all people) Doug Ford's election as Premier.  The colossal failure of the go-ahead-at-any-cost Green Energy shift led directly to the election of a blustering populist and has likely done more harm than good for the environment as a result.  Despite billions wasted, we still produce hardly any additional renewable energy and this will make actually effective climate/environmental spending more contentious down the road.  

Also, I wasn't laughing at your post.  I thought it was witty.  

I think it's dangerous to judge the US as a singularly volatile country.  BC made a point earlier about how any democracy shows this quality off with a changing government.  Canada may have an inherently more stable political system, but we aren't immune to the policy flip-flops we're seeing in the US and indeed these have happened all over the western world.  Angela Merkel is on the outs after her latest election defeat, the UK is leaving the EU, yellow-vest protests - these are all signals that western democracy is straining against the liberalization and globalization of their individual countries. 

I don't think we have to worry much about the USA and China getting a strangle-hold on power.  They're very much at odds on the majority of issues.

Edited by Moonbox
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I think Trump's greatest achievement is that he's woken most serious lawmakers around the world to what a shit-disturbing unstable partner the US truly is to try and deal with.

 

No, Trump's greatest achievement was a domestic one...a real "Dewey Defeats Truman" moment...stopping Hillary Clinton from becoming president...it's not always about the rest of the world, including Canada.   The US has shaken up "allies" many times before, in and out of a Cold War context.   The only constant has been the dependency on raw American military and economic power, the so called global "hegemon", which is no longer sustainable as is...even before Trump.  The "post WW2 order" that Canada's Liberals likes to whine about was already unraveling before Trump.

Canada and other nations are going to have to figure it out without their usual go to blankie. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Nobody said it was a global threat.  It's apparent, however, that North Americans and Europeans have grown tired and frustrated with outward-looking moral righteousness at the expense of kitchen-table economics. 

And I think there are a lot more people who agree than are given credit for.  It's a wedge wielded haphazardly and incompetently by all sides. An out of tune dog whistle.

Quote

Look no further than the Ontario Liberals' implosion in the face (of all people) Doug Ford's election as Premier.  The colossal failure of the go-ahead-at-any-cost Green Energy shift led directly to the election of a blustering populist and has likely done more harm than good for the environment as a result.  Despite billions wasted, we still produce hardly any additional renewable energy and this will make actually effective climate/environmental spending more contentious down the road.

This is an issue that seems to have more to do with issues of governance and accountability than ideology and you know my suggestion for what to do about that.  

Quote

Also, I wasn't laughing at your post.  I thought it was witty.

Thanks, I aim to please.  

Quote

I think it's dangerous to judge the US as a singularly volatile country.  BC made a point earlier about how any democracy shows this quality off with a changing government.  Canada may have an inherently more stable political system, but we aren't immune to the policy flip-flops we're seeing in the US and indeed these have happened all over the western world.

The bigger and more important singularity I see in virtually every governing system is the growing gulf between the governed and their governments based on a almost unbridgeable gulf of distrust.  What changing environment is BC talking about? He routinely paints Trump as just another President in a just as always America doing the same old same old.  Whether it's static or dynamic depends on the time of day and flavour of whoever BC is pointing something out to.

Quote

Angela Merkel is on the outs after her latest election defeat, the UK is leaving the EU, yellow-vest protests - these are all signals that western democracy is straining against the liberalization and globalization of their individual countries.

It's deeper than globalization which is just a thing. I sit on an area planning commission in my regional district where I live.  Right now I've got a string of emails from other commissioners, directors and senior planners surrounding a waiver temporarily suspending public hearings for zoning, sub-divisions and property variance applications etc...pretty unexciting stuff for a lot of people until the suggestion to temporarily suspend public hearings in light of physical distancing requirements drops on it.  Now its all about democracy crumbling around us and things like our APC being all that stands between that and the coming interregnum.  Distrust and powerlessness is what's undermining people's sense of stability and certainty and that's what's driving them insane not the swing of some political pendulum or policy flipping and flopping back and forth. Like Trump, these flip flops are just more symptoms of that power imbalance between people their governments.

 

Quote

I don't think we have to worry much about the USA and China getting a strangle-hold on power.  They're very much at odds on the majority of issues.

Yes but the values that their governments, politicians and attendant right-wings (yes China has one too) place on power are greater than what puts them at odds. If the rest of the world tries to develop around them and they sense their exclusion they'll quickly coalesce around what matters most to them.

As I've always said the struggle between the powerful and the powerless the governed and their governments is the bigger issue humanity needs to focus on.  Its a matter of preparedness really and one we're sadly unprepared for. I think we're trying but there's just so many goddamn eight-balls and screwballs in the way. 

Edited by eyeball
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/6/2020 at 4:12 PM, eyeball said:

And I think there are a lot more people who agree than are given credit for.  It's a wedge wielded haphazardly and incompetently by all sides. An out of tune dog whistle.

Lots of people agree with it, and larger aims of the broader "movement" or whatever you want to call it - it's not very well-defined as a movement anyways.  While it does get wielded as a "wedge", I think the key here is that minority and feel-good politics have limits and populism is a force to be reckoned with.  "Angry white guys" are just the tip of an iceberg that shouldn't be ignored.  I was disgusted to see some of the stuff over the last few years go on in universities across Canada  with the censorship and the shouting-down of non-progressive views.  I think what we're seeing now is the natural reaction to that.  Trump is normalizing political "inappropriateness" and allowing folks who'd previously felt they'd get reviled for offering anything but 100% support for whatever in-vogue progressive measure being discussed an outlet.  There are a lot of idiots among them (true for both sides) but the naming and shaming and the culture of "offense" has provoked a broad-enough populist counter-movement that it can no longer just be mocked and ignored.  It's politically relevant again. 

Quote

The bigger and more important singularity I see in virtually every governing system is the growing gulf between the governed and their governments based on a almost unbridgeable gulf of distrust.  What changing environment is BC talking about? He routinely paints Trump as just another President in a just as always America doing the same old same old.  Whether it's static or dynamic depends on the time of day and flavour of whoever BC is pointing something out to.

I don't want to speak for him but he seems to be a pretty cynical pragmatist.  The closest I could guess is that Trump has, like I said before, normalized the counter-culture we've seen in North America and Europe over the last number of years.  It's no longer as shameful to be anti-immigration, anti-globalization or pro-nationalism.  This sort of sentiment led to Angela Merkel's downfall, to Brexit etc.  

As far as distrust go, this is a problem of widespread ignorance and apathy.  It's natural for the ignorant to be distrustful and this is true on both sides.  On the left it's the tired bleating of evil "corporations" - with corporations being something they don't even understand.  On the right, it's the vacuous nattering about the D E E P S T A T E and bureaucracy etc.  Both have valid points, but neither allow for much middle ground and lead to the poo-flinging we've seen of late. 

Quote

This is an issue that seems to have more to do with issues of governance and accountability than ideology and you know my suggestion for what to do about that

. In regards to the Green Energy debacle in Ontario - no, it wasn't just governance and accountability.  Experts knew ahead of time that the Liberal plan wasn't going to work.  Economists were against it, the engineers in charge of implementing it argued it wouldn't work, and the government went ahead with it anyways. The idea of being "forward-looking" visionaries on the climate and the green economy was intoxicating to both the ruling government and the people who voted for them.  It didn't matter that the whole thing was based on deeply flawed economic and technological assumptions that doomed it from the beginning.  The ignorance and refusal to listen to dissenting opinions is what doomed us.  Even after the plan blew up in everyone's face, they still go re-elected (a really weak opposition).  It wasn't until 8-10 years later that people FINALLY saw the results in their energy bills and the government was "held accountable" at the polls.  

 

 

 

Edited by Moonbox
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Lots of people agree with it, and larger aims of the broader "movement" or whatever you want to call it - it's not very well-defined as a movement anyways.  While it does get wielded as a "wedge", I think the key here is that minority and feel-good politics have limits and populism is a force to be reckoned with.  "Angry white guys" are just the tip of an iceberg that shouldn't be ignored.  I was disgusted to see some of the stuff over the last few years go on in universities across Canada  with the censorship and the shouting-down of non-progressive views.  I think what we're seeing now is the natural reaction to that.  Trump is normalizing political "inappropriateness" and allowing folks who'd previously felt they'd get reviled for offering anything but 100% support for whatever in-vogue progressive measure being discussed an outlet.  There are a lot of idiots among them (true for both sides) but the naming and shaming and the culture of "offense" has provoked a broad-enough populist counter-movement that it can no longer just be mocked and ignored.  It's politically relevant again.   

I think COVID-19 has sent that back on its ass so hard it'll never get up again.  Everyone is a socialist now.

Quote

As far as distrust go, this is a problem of widespread ignorance and apathy.  It's natural for the ignorant to be distrustful and this is true on both sides.  On the left it's the tired bleating of evil "corporations" - with corporations being something they don't even understand.

Well, speaking for myself I certainly don't regard corporations as being people that just seems nuts to me and the distrust is a result of having been lied to so incessantly.  

Quote

. In regards to the Green Energy debacle in Ontario - no, it wasn't just governance and accountability.  Experts knew ahead of time that the Liberal plan wasn't going to work.  Economists were against it, the engineers in charge of implementing it argued it wouldn't work, and the government went ahead with it anyways. The idea of being "forward-looking" visionaries on the climate and the green economy was intoxicating to both the ruling government and the people who voted for them.  It didn't matter that the whole thing was based on deeply flawed economic and technological assumptions that doomed it from the beginning.  The ignorance and refusal to listen to dissenting opinions is what doomed us.  Even after the plan blew up in everyone's face, they still go re-elected (a really weak opposition).  It wasn't until 8-10 years later that people FINALLY saw the results in their energy bills and the government was "held accountable" at the polls.

Perhaps after COVID people will learn to give more heed to experts and make it known to politicians they better as well.  Meanwhile and judging by what I saw around here the dissent was attended by the most acrimonious contempt possible. That always helps.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think COVID-19 has sent that back on its ass so hard it'll never get up again.  Everyone is a socialist now.

Well, speaking for myself I certainly don't regard corporations as being people that just seems nuts to me and the distrust is a result of having been lied to so incessantly.  

Perhaps after COVID people will learn to give more heed to experts and make it known to politicians they better as well.  Meanwhile and judging by what I saw around here the dissent was attended by the most acrimonious contempt possible. That always helps.

Oh ye who have faith. People are gonna learn from this right? Because people are so smart aren't they.

Apparently you probably ain't.

Everyone's a socialist now? Ha ha ha ha.
Are you naive? You'll soon get a wake-up. There is no reason for me to explain why... I just foreshadow and wait.

Corporations are evil, oh my what insight. But do tell, little Nemo, who makes up those corporations? Who or what actually runs them. Ah yes exactly. Peepo. Peeepo

I hope people will learn that politicians and doctors were completely wrong in their approach to the pandemic and caused more harm than was necessary. Than was... necessary. hmmm yes.

You and the selfish ones all ran to your basements at the first sign of trouble, abandoning the ship as it were. Only a few people, like me, have the guts to face it when the going get tough... meanwhile you blathered and criticized the very things that kept you alive. You speak whistfully of a brave new collective tomorrow, while laughing at the plight of those who are out there helping to keep you alive. You really got a mental shit-kicking coming, fella. We didn't shut this down for any good reason other than our own immense fear of mortality. Self preservation. In your case, really self. Do you honestly think the stupid animal you are is gonna learn and be all lovely to one another come tomorrow?

Cause I tell you right now, once this is done you'll see the floodgates open like never in history. Three sheets to the wind, tally ho matey if you can grock the principle.
We've got some carbon overhead now, didn't run the world for 4 months so plenty of headroom to crank the shit up to 200. You know, like when ships go real fast and run over whales, and stuff.

Meanwhile you just keep chillin and sucking down that rum and coke. Or takin bennies, or whatever it is you people do.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2020 at 11:52 AM, Moonbox said:

BC I agree with some of what you're saying.  Contrary to most Trump critics, I also think Obama was a pretty bad president.

The USA has not had a decent president since Kennedy.  Good presidents get a bullet. And no shooting Regan does not count.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2020 at 8:52 AM, Moonbox said:

We can choose neither. 

Just because Trump is standing up to China doesn't mean he isn't a disaster of a human being and an even worse president.  

If Trump hadn't burned so many bridges around the world leading up to this, he wouldn't be such a pariah and folks in Canada, Europe etc might actually listen to him.  International leaders can't trust him or his intentions.  He's so dishonest, petty and mercurial that all anyone can hope to do is stay out of his way and not provoke a tantrum.  

Donald Trump has thrown American diplomacy back decades and China's influence will have grown immensely after his presidency is done (hopefully this year).  The vacuum that US has left behind on rational world leadership is going to get filled somewhere. 

 

  Wow some people should do more reading and watching more than CNN. I find it hard to think that in this day and age so many people go through life without being able to put their own thoughts together without the talking points of people that just hate a man for making fools out of a bunch of old politicians that got rich off of the working class people. I hope that people one day will awaken from the sleep they are in and see the light. Just imagine where the world would be if Hillary had been elected. People please do your research if you expect to be taken seriously .

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/6/2020 at 4:12 PM, eyeball said:

It's deeper than globalization which is just a thing. I sit on an area planning commission in my regional district where I live.  Right now I've got a string of emails from other commissioners, directors and senior planners surrounding a waiver temporarily suspending public hearings for zoning, sub-divisions and property variance applications etc...pretty unexciting stuff for a lot of people until the suggestion to temporarily suspend public hearings in light of physical distancing requirements drops on it.  Now its all about democracy crumbling around us and things like our APC being all that stands between that and the coming interregnum.  Distrust and powerlessness is what's undermining people's sense of stability and certainty and that's what's driving them insane not the swing of some political pendulum or policy flipping and flopping back and forth. Like Trump, these flip flops are just more symptoms of that power imbalance between people their governments.

Interesting, maybe many cities are trying to do this same thing. Get some things rammed through without much fuss because most are focused on the virus. Does not seem very democratic to me! If this is happening globally,,,

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

I am sure the Dems are responsible for what happens in Toronto as well? How about, Calgary?

JUSTIN Trudeau obeys the USA Dems' instruction manual? Check.

Canada Parliament obeys the USA Dems' instruction manual? Check.

Trudeau and Canada Parliament control both Toronto & Calgary? Check.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Tell a friend

    Love Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...