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Classical Liberal Rex Murphy Rips the Green Party to Shreds

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18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How would I know who is in Peterson's cult unless I was in it ?
2. They did in the beginning but he has since become a weird kind of Oprah for the alt-right.  I think he saw the opportunity to cash in and took it.  As such, he has reduced his influence at a time when he could have helped the discussion.
3. As I said, he could have been that and I was eagerly following what he said in the beginning.  One thing you have to realize is that reputation is actually important.  If you align yourself with trolls and troll organizations you will be excluded from a wider discussion and that's perfectly legitimate.
4. It doesn't matter at this point, he is not trusted by the very people that need to be part of the dialogue.  So if we want to have a 'discussion' about political correctness that excludes the very people he is looking to influence then what do we have ?  The answer is the same old balkanized and unreasonable politics that proves so profitable for merchants of angertainment, but actually does nothing to foment discussion.  

1) Because I figured you were more thoughtful and contemplative than just dismissing it as a "cult".  Actually, I know you are, and you pretty much confirm that with your other responses. 

2) He may very well have cashed-in on his success, but I'm not sure why you think that reduces his influence.  

3) I do agree with this, at least partially.  While I don't agree that he's deliberately or even implicitly aligning himself with "trolls", I do agree that he's not done enough to separate himself from them.  You do lose legitimacy even by loose comparisons with such groups, but then part of the problem is that his opponents go to great lengths to advertise those (mostly implied) associations.  It's not like he's shaking hands with Clan Wizards, but folks like to characterize him as that type of person. 

4)  Up until now there wasn't any potential for discussion on political-correctness.  That's the whole point.  The shouting-down and shaming of any dissenting voice was endemic in universities across the world.  No case more clearly demonstrates this than Lindsay Shepherd's at WLU - a comical example of how out-of-touch, arrogant and overreaching much of the intellectual establishment had become.  Her supervisors literally compared Peterson talks to Hitler speeches. I'd graduated from there less than 10 years before, and it was extremely disappointing to see how things had devolved so badly, though the problems were already entrenched even back then.  

If nothing else, Peterson is normalizing and empowering an alternative point of view.  This is both a good an necessary thing.  We can probably agree on criticism for some of his messaging, which even I think is a bit chauvinistic and out-of-touch, but you can't discount his influence just because of that.  He has a large, mainstream counter-culture following that people are actually listening to and taking note of.  I doubt he's terribly concerned with the fact that there's a tweed-suit at Queen's sneering at him and that won't debate with him.  Few have had much success against him in that regard anyways.  

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5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1) Because I figured you were more thoughtful and contemplative than just dismissing it as a "cult". 

That was the old Michael Hardner. The guy who at least pretended to be centrist. This one is way over on the far Left and a progressive zealot filled with contempt for any who disagree with his own cult's woke views.

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

That was the old Michael Hardner. The guy who at least pretended to be centrist. This one is way over on the far Left and a progressive zealot filled with contempt for any who disagree with his own cult's woke views.

Yep, unfortunately he just dismisses any issue he deems unimportant. 

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8 minutes ago, Argus said:

That was the old Michael Hardner. The guy who at least pretended to be centrist. This one is way over on the far Left and a progressive zealot filled with contempt for any who disagree with his own cult's woke views.

I've more or less been absent from these forums since around 2014/2015, so I can only go with what I remember.  I've obviously missed 5 years of back-and-forth so I have no idea what sort of discussions everyone has had in the interim, but I'll hear anyone out who's not talking crazy - you probably know who I'm talking about... 

Edited by Moonbox

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36 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1) Because I figured you were more thoughtful and contemplative than just dismissing it as a "cult".  

2) He may very well have cashed-in on his success, but I'm not sure why you think that reduces his influence.  

3) I do agree with this, at least partially.  While I don't agree that he's deliberately or even implicitly aligning himself with "trolls", I do agree that he's not done enough to separate himself from them.   

4)  Up until now there wasn't any potential for discussion on political-correctness.  That's the whole point.  The shouting-down and shaming of any dissenting voice was endemic in universities across the world.  No case more clearly demonstrates this than Lindsay Shepherd's at WLU - a comical example of how out-of-touch, arrogant and overreaching much of the intellectual establishment had become.  Her supervisors literally compared Peterson talks to Hitler speeches. I'd graduated from there less than 10 years before, and it was extremely disappointing to see how things had devolved so badly, though the problems were already entrenched even back then.  

5) If nothing else, Peterson is normalizing and empowering an alternative point of view.  This is both a good an necessary thing.  We can probably agree on criticism for some of his messaging, which even I think is a bit chauvinistic and out-of-touch, but you can't discount his influence just because of that.  He has a large, mainstream counter-culture following that people are actually listening to and taking note of. 

6) I doubt he's terribly concerned with the fact that there's a tweed-suit at Queen's sneering at him and that won't debate with him.  Few have had much success against him in that regard anyways.  

1) Sorry, but he had the chance to be a new and truly uniting figure, and threw it away so he is deserving of disdain IMO.
2) Because he is aligning himself with organizations whose mission is to divide people, for profit.
3) The Rebel is raising money for him: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/jordan-peterson-university-of-toronto-free-speech-crowdfunding/article35174379/
4) "Up until now" ?  No ... this is still happening and will continue for the foreseeable future.
5) "Mainstream counter-culture" is an oxymoron.  I don't see him having broad influence, but you seem to think otherwise.  Can you give some reasons why ?  
6) Right.   As I said before if you don't want to respect the people who are part of (what he sees as) the problem, then GTFO.  Your assessment of academia is snide and arrogant, so neither you nor Peterson would be welcome.  It's like a Quebec Separatist calling Albertans cowboy-suited yahoos, then expecting to get them to discuss Energy Programs.  

I don't think I would be a great broker for peace-talks in the cultural wars either, but at least I know that about myself.

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On 5/9/2020 at 10:41 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Murphy is a shill for the oil industry right?  Wasn't it shown that he was commenting on the industry while taking money?

 

Why should I read another corrupt commentator with his hands taking money under the table?

Does Quebec not take enormous amounts of money from the oil industry, namely Alberta?  How is that not sheer hypocrisy  when Quebec leaders have always shown their distaste for Canada and especially the Western provinces?

I wonder how many air miles Elizabeth May racks up in a typical year? 

 

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

That was the old Michael Hardner. The guy who at least pretended to be centrist. This one is way over on the far Left and a progressive zealot filled with contempt for any who disagree with his own cult's woke views.

Hey the pot calling the kettle black.  I defend his views especially the ones I disagree with. You wanna throw stones? Puhleeze lets have a big socialist hug and give thanks that we all grew up with role models such as Mr. Dress Up and Tommy Hunter.

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12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Sorry, but he had the chance to be a new and truly uniting figure, and threw it away so he is deserving of disdain IMO.
2) Because he is aligning himself with organizations whose mission is to divide people, for profit.
3) The Rebel is raising money for him: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/jordan-peterson-university-of-toronto-free-speech-crowdfunding/article35174379/
4) "Up until now" ?  No ... this is still happening and will continue for the foreseeable future.
5) "Mainstream counter-culture" is an oxymoron.  I don't see him having broad influence, but you seem to think otherwise.  Can you give some reasons why ?  
6) Right.   As I said before if you don't want to respect the people who are part of (what he sees as) the problem, then GTFO.  Your assessment of academia is snide and arrogant, so neither you nor Peterson would be welcome.  It's like a Quebec Separatist calling Albertans cowboy-suited yahoos, then expecting to get them to discuss Energy Programs.  

I don't think I would be a great broker for peace-talks in the cultural wars either, but at least I know that about myself.

1)  I don't think that was ever trying to be "uniting".  He had a bone to pick and set out to embarrass the politically correct, intellectual establishment - and so far he's succeeding.  The argument that he deserves disdain because he didn't reach for the lofty expectations others hoped he would is pretty weak.  

2)  and 3)  This is rich criticism, considering Rebel media only started their crowdfunding campaign for him after his application for federal grant money was denied for the very first time following his speaking out about gender politics.  While I find any association with Rebel highly questionable, it would be a weird look for a free-speech advocate to slap away a helping hand because he doesn't like everything they say.  Regardless, the system of public-grant funding is a contentious issue altogether, rife with echo-chamber group-think and intellectual conflicts - not to mention questionable corporate and foreign donors. 

4 )and 5) That was an oxymoron, so a poor choice of words on my part, but in this context I meant something different.  Compared to 5-10 years ago, there's now a much stronger and much more vocal opposition to whatever you want to call this oppressive version of political correctness.  It is a mainstream issue now, and people aren't nearly as ashamed as they used to be about voicing dissenting opinions.  The fact that we're discussing Peterson demonstrates he's mainstream, not to mention his coverage all over the world.  

6) and here you demonstrate the sort of behavior that serves as the root cause of the problem.  Not only did you start the discussion by framing Peterson's followers as "an incel-cult", you proceed to get miffed by my off-hand comment about the sneering tweed-suited professor.  Obviously you missed the comical and ironic hypocrisy, but then maybe you don't appreciate folks questioning your thinking either?  You're not making a very compelling case here...

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

Hey the pot calling the kettle black.  I defend his views especially the ones I disagree with.

I think you mean you defend his right to speak his views. As for pot and kettle, I've had occasion to take those political compass type polls a few times in the last couple of months, and every time I do I come out pretty much dead centre. Which is the same as I did fifteen years ago when August first posted them here and suggested people try them.

My views haven't changed. I'm not out on the fringes.

Edited by Argus

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On 5/13/2020 at 11:23 PM, ProudConservative said:

The reason I like Rex Murphy so much, is he's scratching his head... and thinking to himself... What on earth has happened to academia? He's a classical liberal... a real progressive, not one of those phony airheads who are trying to run a cult.

Back in the day, Murphy ran for the Liberals twice as a candidate in provincial races and worked with Clyde Wells. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Murphy

 

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2 hours ago, ironstone said:

1. Does Quebec not take enormous amounts of money from the oil industry, namely Alberta? 
2. How is that not sheer hypocrisy  when Quebec leaders have always shown their distaste for Canada and especially the Western provinces?
3. I wonder how many air miles Elizabeth May racks up in a typical year? 

 

1. That's correct, they do not.
2. It has nothing to do with the egregious crimes of the Rex.
3. She is a green warrior.  She should fly and SUV for free...

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

1)  I don't think that was ever trying to be "uniting". 
2) He had a bone to pick and set out to embarrass the politically correct, intellectual establishment -
3) ...and so far he's succeeding. 
4) The argument that he deserves disdain because he didn't reach for the lofty expectations others hoped he would is pretty weak.  
5) This is rich criticism, considering Rebel media only started their crowdfunding campaign for him after his application for federal grant money was denied for the very first time following his speaking out about gender politics. 
6) While I find any association with Rebel highly questionable, it would be a weird look for a free-speech advocate to slap away a helping hand because he doesn't like everything they say.   
7) Compared to 5-10 years ago, there's now a much stronger and much more vocal opposition to whatever you want to call this oppressive version of political correctness.  It is a mainstream issue now, and people aren't nearly as ashamed as they used to be about voicing dissenting opinions. 
8) The fact that we're discussing Peterson demonstrates he's mainstream, not to mention his coverage all over the world.  
9) and here you demonstrate the sort of behavior that serves as the root cause of the problem.  Not only did you start the discussion by framing Peterson's followers as "an incel-cult", you proceed to get miffed by my off-hand comment about the sneering tweed-suited professor. 
10) Obviously you missed the comical and ironic hypocrisy, but then maybe you don't appreciate folks questioning your thinking either?  You're not making a very compelling case here...

1) He definitely thought that Trans people deserved respect, and that is an effort to acknowledge humanity and basic courtesy.
2) Wrong.  You are drinking the kool aid without a glass here.  Find me ANYTHING where JP says he wants to embarrass people, when he set out to point out the legality of compelling speech.
3) No.  To embarrass someone, they have to respect what you say on some level.
4) No, he deserves disdain because he threw away a chance to make a dignified argument about human rights and individual rights, and to make people speak to each other civilly.  This is something we need right now, and it's an antidote to the malaise of the culture wars.  He chose to drive off in a clown car for $.
5) He could have raised money himself instead of lying down with those who would divide society.   I was pretty shocked when supposed arms-length grant organizations denied him money for political reasons and that was another missed opportunity.  Terrible.
6) Ok - so if Penthouse offered to give him money he should take it because he's a Free Speech Advocate ?  You can advocate for free speech and not work directly with a magazine, TV show or website.
7) It's a culture war.  Don't confuse that with a mainstream issue.  Yes, the average person knows about it and has an opinion, but what is being done ?  What is happening other than people clicking on articles ?
8) Ridiculous.  There are threads on here about Antifa, Incels and everything else.  Weirdness gets clicks and it doesn't make them mainstream.
9) Yes, I have a problem with a specific clown who I feel to be amoral.  You equate my concerns with an individual with you making comments about all academics.  You are part of the culture war too.
10) My only point is that I feel JP is a missed opportunity, a clown, and Oprah of the alt-right.  I feel sad that some people listen to him, but he will not be part of the solution.  That's my case.
 

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43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) He definitely thought that Trans people deserved respect, and that is an effort to acknowledge humanity and basic courtesy.
2) Wrong.  You are drinking the kool aid without a glass here.  Find me ANYTHING where JP says he wants to embarrass people, when he set out to point out the legality of compelling speech.
3) No.  To embarrass someone, they have to respect what you say on some level.
4) No, he deserves disdain because he threw away a chance to make a dignified argument about human rights and individual rights, and to make people speak to each other civilly.  This is something we need right now, and it's an antidote to the malaise of the culture wars.  He chose to drive off in a clown car for $.
5) He could have raised money himself instead of lying down with those who would divide society.   I was pretty shocked when supposed arms-length grant organizations denied him money for political reasons and that was another missed opportunity.  Terrible.
6) Ok - so if Penthouse offered to give him money he should take it because he's a Free Speech Advocate ?  You can advocate for free speech and not work directly with a magazine, TV show or website.
7) It's a culture war.  Don't confuse that with a mainstream issue.  Yes, the average person knows about it and has an opinion, but what is being done ?  What is happening other than people clicking on articles ?
8) Ridiculous.  There are threads on here about Antifa, Incels and everything else.  Weirdness gets clicks and it doesn't make them mainstream.
9) Yes, I have a problem with a specific clown who I feel to be amoral.  You equate my concerns with an individual with you making comments about all academics.  You are part of the culture war too.
10) My only point is that I feel JP is a missed opportunity, a clown, and Oprah of the alt-right.  I feel sad that some people listen to him, but he will not be part of the solution.  That's my case.
 

1)  Okay?  What does that mean, other than what it means at face value?  

2)  Find me anything where he says he wanted to be a "uniting figure".  Let's hold each other to the same standards, okay?  

3)  That's utter nonsense and completely backward.  If anything, being negatively compared to someone you don't respect makes the shame even worse.  This isn't a bubble-world where it's academics vs academics only.  There's an audience - there's actually a world outside the lecture halls.    It's difficult to overstate how embarrassing the Lindsay Shepherd case is for WLU, regardless of how much the professor's disrespect JP.  I can guarantee you the university was highly embarrassed and broadly ridiculed.  That has an effect.  

4 and 5)  Can you give me many/any examples where Peterson wasn't speaking civilly to or against his opponents?  Why does his financial success somehow invalidate his arguments?  It's not like university faculty and administration hasn't been whoring itself out for decades.  That wasn't a blanket statement, by the way, but these institutions are FAR from the beacons of intellectual freedom that some would have us believe.    

6)  Penthouse would be a bizarre partner, but then how "wrong" would it be?  If they did support his research, what would that actually mean?  Can you qualify the moral objection here?  

7 and 8)  Doesn't matter.  You've already acknowledged that there's a culture-war, and that the average person knows about it and has an opinion. I'd argue that we've already seen part of the outcome -  Trump, Brexit, yellow-vests, populism etc.  

9)  You didn't comment on an individual.  You generalized and ridiculed his entire following, and in much more colorful language than I ever did.  You weren't even talking about his arguments or positions, you were just characterizing anyone who followed them....as incels.   I mean...come on.  Are you even reading what you write?   

10)  He may have missed a magical opportunity that you've decided was his to grasp, but he's still brought awareness to deeply-rooted problem with modern academia and that in itself is a good thing.  

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 12:10 AM, ProudConservative said:

Rex Murphy is one of Canada's most well-respected ivy-league commentators. Many see him as a east coast liberal

Rex is not a Liberal. Rex would not be able to get a job at NP if he was a Liberal commentator. He has definitely moved to the right even more, since his departure from CBC to NP. 

NP's commentators all sit somewhere from right of centre to full on advocates of the Conservative party.

Here are Rex's last few NP articles - Anything but "Liberal":

 

Rex Murphy – Was it code?: The PM's bizarre announcement on the carbon tax hike

Rex Murphy: Now everyone's wearing masks! Pity the poor activists upstaged by COVID-19

Rex Murphy: COVID-19 and our new Government at the Bottom of the Cottage Doorsteps

Rex Murphy: Michael Moore, exiled, is a non-progressive now

Rex Murphy: Why is the media not more interested in assault allegations against Biden?

Rex Murphy: Confessions of an Earth Day slacker and greenhorn historian

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

1)  Okay?  What does that mean, other than what it means at face value?  

2)  Find me anything where he says he wanted to be a "uniting figure".  Let's hold each other to the same standards, okay?  

3)  That's utter nonsense and completely backward.  If anything, being negatively compared to someone you don't respect makes the shame even worse.  This isn't a bubble-world where it's academics vs academics only.  There's an audience - there's actually a world outside the lecture halls.    It's difficult to overstate how embarrassing the Lindsay Shepherd case is for WLU, regardless of how much the professor's disrespect JP.  I can guarantee you the university was highly embarrassed and broadly ridiculed.  That has an effect.  

4 and 5)  Can you give me many/any examples where Peterson wasn't speaking civilly to or against his opponents?  Why does his financial success somehow invalidate his arguments?  It's not like university faculty and administration hasn't been whoring itself out for decades.  That wasn't a blanket statement, by the way, but these institutions are FAR from the beacons of intellectual freedom that some would have us believe.    

6)  Penthouse would be a bizarre partner, but then how "wrong" would it be?  If they did support his research, what would that actually mean?  Can you qualify the moral objection here?  

7 and 8)  Doesn't matter.  You've already acknowledged that there's a culture-war, and that the average person knows about it and has an opinion. I'd argue that we've already seen part of the outcome -  Trump, Brexit, yellow-vests, populism etc.  

9)  You didn't comment on an individual.  You generalized and ridiculed his entire following, and in much more colorful language than I ever did.  You weren't even talking about his arguments or positions, you were just characterizing anyone who followed them....as incels.   I mean...come on.  Are you even reading what you write?   

10)  He may have missed a magical opportunity that you've decided was his to grasp, but he's still brought awareness to deeply-rooted problem with modern academia and that in itself is a good thing.  

 

1) I think that that's a bridge to unity.  If he personally treated trans people with respect, but objected to legal imposition of language that's a dialogue you can have without holding disrepect for someone.  To me, that's more unifying than "setting out to embarrass the politically correct, intellectual establishment -".  The goal is to stop the intrusion of government into our lives.

2) See #1.

3) Of course the university was embarrassed, but WLU brought it upon themselves by arbitrarily banning a discussion then mishandling it.  Peterson didn't actively do anything, other than appear on TVO.

4)5) I already gave you the example.

6) If he appeared at a Penthouse event, do you not think that would undermine him as a serious arbiter of individual vs collective rights ?  I don't know.   And I don't think I like my own analogy here, because The Rebel has a conflict of interest as I mentioned earlier.

7) 8) I don't know what to make of this.  Are you saying because there's a culture war it doesn't matter ?  There's no mainstream ?  You making fun of academics is fair game ?  If so then fine.

9) True.  It's a reflection of him, though, and his inherent clownishness.  The 'generalization' I make about them is that they follow a clown.  He's worthy of disdain and therefore they are too, or maybe pity.

10) Crap.  You already said "it doesn't matter".  He has joined the culture war and therefore he isn't helping at all.  Take me for example, I was willing to listen to him at the beginning because this ridiculous culture war has to end.  Now he's part of it.

 

In short, you are either for the culture war or against it.  You sound like you're for it and Peterson is a good guy because he's going to help you win it.  Here's the news: nobody is going to win it.

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5 hours ago, Argus said:

I think you mean you defend his right to speak his views. As for pot and kettle, I've had occasion to take those political compass type polls a few times in the last couple of months, and every time I do I come out pretty much dead centre. Which is the same as I did fifteen years ago when August first posted them here and suggested people try them.

My views haven't changed. I'm not out on the fringes.

If you aint he aint. You think your take on your views is without bias?  Yer on the fringes by attempting to self serve. Its a bitch. Welcome to the fringes. We all visit sooner than later. It's the nature of debate.

 

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4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Back in the day, Murphy ran for the Liberals twice as a candidate in provincial races and worked with Clyde Wells. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Murphy

 

Yah he did but that does  not mean a damn thing. The difference between provincial and federal political parties of the same name or parties of the same name in  different provinces is there for anyone to see.

Further the use of the name Liberal or Conservative for political parties does not make those parties liberal or conservative the position of their policies might. Come on. Murphy is like anyone else, a mix of many ideologies. 

Edited by Rue

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10 hours ago, Rue said:

Yah he did but that does  not mean a damn thing. The difference between provincial and federal political parties of the same name or parties of the same name in  different provinces is there for anyone to see.

Further the use of the name Liberal or Conservative for political parties does not make those parties liberal or conservative the position of their policies might. Come on. Murphy is like anyone else, a mix of many ideologies. 

Rex Morphy is an oldschool reasonable thinker. I trade him, for our prime-mistake.

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3 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

Rex Morphy is an oldschool reasonable thinker. I trade him, for our prime-mistake.

Rex Morphy ?  That shape-shifting rapscallion - is he back ?   :lol:

 

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11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Rex Morphy ?  That shape-shifting rapscallion - is he back ?   :lol:

For such an old man smoking a pipe, you act like such a child.

Edited by ProudConservative

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4 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

Rex Morphy is an oldschool reasonable thinker. I trade him, for our prime-mistake.

I agree with you. That proves it you are insane. Spanky's point was true too. Depends on how use the word. I do get that but he may as well be called an Albertan PC as well.

I think what he really is..like many Canadians not from Quebec or Ontario is someone tired of what they perceive as a bias in their favour by the federal government.  Whether that is true or not I leave to others.

He does not like people who see only one side of an arguement. He came from a world of journalism and critical editorialist that  plays devil's advocate to any popular belief not properly balanced in presentation.

I think he hates everyone equally if you give him proper time to clarify.

 

Edited by Rue

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10 minutes ago, Rue said:

See I agreed with you. That proves it you are insane. Spanky's point was true too. Depends on how you use the word. Harder and him only meant it to explain what H meant by Liberal. I do get that but he may as well be called an Albertan PC as well. I think what he really is..like many Canadians not from Quebec or Ontario is someone tired of what they perceive as a bias in their favour by the federal government.  Whether that is true or not I leave to others. I think he is pro free enterprise, not a fan of trendy cause feel good politicians, but other then that good luck slotting him. He dislikes certain environmentalists not all. He certainly has disdain for Suzuki, Green Parties, Greenpeace, but he is not against the environment being kept safe. He certainly defended seal hunts but he does not support animal cruelty although many see the two as the same.

I go easy on David Suzuki. He's worked extremely hard to teach science on the Nature of Things, and some of the programming is just fascinating. He does better when he doesn't sensationalize environmentalism. I went to one of his speeches and he screamed out at the audience. "If you drive an SUV, you don't give a shit about the environment". He needs to learn not to shot himself in the foot. He also said that he told the natives on the Queen Charlotte Islands, they don't need forestry jobs... Just so they can buy worthless junk like "Madonna records and Nike shoes". He says they have peaceful communities, so they don't need capitalism. It's the disdain for the people who want to work, that drives me crazy about environmentalist. It's one thing to go after the corporations, it's another to be condescending towards to blue collar worker.

Edited by ProudConservative
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15 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

For such an old man smoking a pipe, you act like such a child.

Its opium. He is solving a  murder case. 

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4 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

I go easy on David Suzuki. He's worked extremely hard to teach science on the Nature of Things, and some of the programming is just fascinating. He does better when he doesn't sensationalize environmentalism. I went to one of his speeches and he screamed out at the audience. "If you drive an SUV, you don't give a shit about the environment". He needs to learn not to shot himself in the foot. He also said that he told the natives on the Queen Charlotte Islands, they don't need forestry jobs... Just so they can buy worthless junk like "Madonna records and Nike shoes". He says they have peaceful communities, so they don't need capitalism. It's the disdain for the people who want to work, that drives me crazy about environmentalist. It's one thing to go after the corporations, it's another to be condescending towards to blue collar worker.

Yah totally with you on the above.

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Just now, Rue said:

Yah totally with you on the above.

All all these environmentalist won't do anything to stabilize the birth rates in some countries... Which in my opinion is the greatest long-term threat to the environment.

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