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The case for a mandatory tracking app

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So what ?   Better to die as a free man/woman than live as sheep.

LIVE FREE OR DIE !   (or go to Canada).

That is a great sentiment to put on a bumper sticker but I would give dying a miss if I could. A lot of people have lived as slaves rather than die. There were 3 million slaves in the US before the Civil War. There were millions of slaves in Nazi Germany during the war and many of them endured in the attempt to stay alive. The same for POW's captured by the Japanese. Life is a lot more precious than freedom for most people. I don't mean that those who choose liberty rather than life are not heros, but they are heros because their act is extraordinary.

Edited by Queenmandy85

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

The deliberately absurd example was just that for a reason.  It was intended to indicate how absurd was the notion that this proposed app was going to be abused to your detriment.

I'd actually appreciate some non-absurd examples, if you have them.  Non-absurd and likely.

Non absurd positive would be how South Korea uses their app. we would both agree. That would be ideal yes. Easier said then done when guaranteeing no leaks, abuse but in South Korea people are culturally more inclined to follow government intervention.

The most likely abuse would be using it to identify individuals with the virus for reasons other than medical control of their disease or having their name leaked violating their privacy, i.e.,

https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/personal-data-of-144k-canadians/

https://globalnews.ca/news/6116444/canadians-affected-by-data-breach-privacy-commissioner/

Here is an example at the provincial level:

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2014/10/29/hospital_privacy_violations_rife_in_ontario.html

https://www.mccarthy.ca/en/insights/blogs/snipits/health-record-snooping-nets-hefty-fine

Another possible example of  a potential violator could be health insurance companies accumulating underwriting data or medical supply companies looking to see who they can sell to or private health care clinics looking for patients or senior citizen home corporations or property management firms.

Privacy issues concerning health records is a major issue in the cyber age of being able to hack into any system.

 

 

 

Edited by Rue

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1 minute ago, Rue said:

Another possible example of  a potential violator could be health insurance companies accumulating underwriting data or medical supply companies looking to see who they can sell to

The insurance company won't learn anything more from your health records than they would find out from the application, unless you lie and then the policy is void anyway.

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1 hour ago, Tdot said:

Your remarks here simply are not based in, logic, considering how you are now antagonizing the same Ashkenazim tenets' hub that you usually help @Argus esteem and support on this great website.

Yes.

Canada's PM & Parliament are just like USA Dems with respect to strictly obeying the same Globalist Leaders that both you and Argus often support on this website, therefore you are now contradicting the positions you usually support ---and I posted only because you needed someone to remind you that you were 'out of character' in here :)

You are a racist troll.  

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12 minutes ago, Tdot said:

Same thing in his mind, yesterday, when he admonished the White Supremacists that murdered the darkskinned negro jogger for no reason? Or maybe the same thing in his mind, 5 months ago, when he gleefully signed legislation that gave $250M/year to HBCU and negro farmers?? Same thing on his mind when he had his motorcade drive him to teenaged negros Conservative Youth's Summit, you think??

I was thinking "boobs", but who knows, really?

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6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The insurance company won't learn anything more from your health records than they would find out from the application, unless you lie and then the policy is void anyway.

Not necessarily.  By the way an innocent misrepresentation and certain deliberate misrepresentations may  not void a policy. 

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14 minutes ago, Rue said:

Non absurd positive would be how South Korea uses their app. we would both agree. That would be ideal yes. Easier said then done when guaranteeing no leaks, abuse but in South Korea people are culturally more inclined to follow government intervention.

The most likely abuse would be using it to identify individuals with the virus for reasons other than medical control of their disease or having their name leaked violating their privacy, i.e.,

https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/personal-data-of-144k-canadians/

https://globalnews.ca/news/6116444/canadians-affected-by-data-breach-privacy-commissioner/

Here is an example at the provincial level:

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2014/10/29/hospital_privacy_violations_rife_in_ontario.html

https://www.mccarthy.ca/en/insights/blogs/snipits/health-record-snooping-nets-hefty-fine

Another possible example of  a potential violator could be health insurance companies accumulating underwriting data or medical supply companies looking to see who they can sell to.

Privacy issues concerning health records is a major issue in the cyber age of being able to hack into any system.

 

 

 

Absolutely.  If one is worried about data breaches or hackers one can take steps.  No social media, no banking, no credit cards, no shopping except anonymously and with cash, and most of all, no cell phone.  They can't make you install an app then.

I think mandatory reporting of privacy violations by health care workers, in the same way it is for Canadian businesses regarding data breach reporting would be a good idea.

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41 minutes ago, Argus said:

You're a member of the Trump cult. Such people are not conservatives.

Come on Argus he is no more a supporter of  Trump or a Trump hater. Wes is pro Trump and agrees with you. We are DEBATING. I refuse to label you. I debate you because you know I respect your opinion.  Many of us are non partisan but pro individual rights which is what OW means by conservative. True conservatism is  loath to have government initiate and prefers it done by individuals. That is what he meant.

Trump is not a true conservative. He is not anything but Trump. He does whatever he believes in the split second. The only consistent  thing about his ideology is he does what he thinks suits him at the moment. Its hard to call him anything ideologically speaking. He does reflect distrust of government though big time and Americans love that.

Also I do not appreciate Tdot's trolling. I did not find your responses to me being a Jew out of line and he is exploiting it. I raised it first. You had perfect right to respond as you did. You raised it in the context I did.  Tdot is a phacking racist troll.

I agree with the basic concept we have to do early tracking of course. Just how we do it and how we protect individual rights is what I am arguing. Too easy to give the government powers until there are very real safeguards in place. The track record of our federal government on data leaks is horrible. For that matter data leaks provincially have happened.

I prefer Ford's  measured approach where he is getting us in Ontario to volunteer without enforcing. Its far more effective and does work. Most of us are reasonable.

You also underestimate physicians do not readily want to give out info that is not strictly protected for their clients nor will they force treatment on clients without extremely extraordinary circumstances.

Physicians will not be part of a police operation and neither will nurses. Their practice is based on getting consent not imposing.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Your current phone is tracking everywhere you go and passing that data to half a dozen different organizations. Your ISP is tracking everywhere you go online. Your credit card/debit card software tracks everything you spend money on. You have no idea who holds that data or how vulnerable it is to various government actors. And you don't care.

But you'd destroy your phone rather than let an anti-virus app be installed on it. Real clear thinking there.

Yes of course I care.  I resisted text messaging for years, then resisted getting data on my phone for years.  But if you want to be a part of our society eventually you have to get this crap because everyone else uses it.  Unless you want to live off the grid in the woods.

I'm as careful as I can be.  I only download apps on my phone I need.  When I don't need it anymore, it's deleted.  I use a VPN.  But it's a losing battle.

But I'm still not putting a tracking app on my phone, it's just never going to happen.

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15 minutes ago, Rue said:

You are a racist troll.  

And that is oooonly because you hate, North America, so you are a-okay with Canada now allowing lightskinned immigrants to overrun/overpopulate this country ---whether illegally or legally landed here.

Yes.

Therefore you are actually looking like a whirlpool here right now LOL as you admonish the same party you usually esteem ---now that you feel like their Globalists' mission infringes upon your privacy via their CoronaVirus app. You poor thing, I pity your mental nightmare. 

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Absolutely.  If one is worried about data breaches or hackers one can take steps.  No social media, no banking, no credit cards, no shopping except anonymously and with cash, and most of all, no cell phone.  They can't make you install an app then.

I think mandatory reporting of privacy violations by health care workers, in the same way it is for Canadian businesses regarding data breach reporting would be a good idea.

I have exhausted my concerns with you and Argus out of pure respect for the issue. I think eventually we all agree we have to find a safe way to protect the info so we can do early testing and tracking for the right reasons not the wrong ones.

I just know to many people from communist and police states and yes my own family history to trust government when it comes to surveillance and this comes from someone who respects Canada for giving me all the freedoms my family dreamed of and soldiers fought for. That is why I find protection of individual rights so important and became a lawyer. We don't disagree on what we need, just how we do it.

I am gonna stop now because I sure as hell won't have a troll have me engage in entertainment for him and you notice I will argue with BC more than most on the board but I get the US and speak about them with respect. I may disagree with much of what Trump says and does but his nation and his office is far  greater than his individual personality or rudeness.

He is in charge of a nation that could easily have imposed a police state by now but has not. I have to admire that. No I do not want anyone dying needlessly but their respect of freedom is real.

The comment they support totalitarian regimes is bullshit.  The people don't decide the country's foreign policy, financial interests do. What I can say is that when it comes to the support of certain nations like Israel, that came about because of grassroots individual support particularly from the Christian organized groups not just the military industrial complex. Americans when they have a gut sympathy or liking of a country are not influenced by their government. The fact American and Canadian business interests and policies compete and clash has never impacted on the individual link between Yanks and Canadians.  That is genuine.

Phack the anti US trolls polluting this board and sidetracking this thread. Its a good topic.

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4 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Yes of course I care.  I resisted text messaging for years, then resisted getting data on my phone for years.  But if you want to be a part of our society eventually you have to get this crap because everyone else uses it.  Unless you want to live off the grid in the woods.

I'm as careful as I can be.  I only download apps on my phone I need.  When I don't need it anymore, it's deleted.  I use a VPN.  But it's a losing battle.

But I'm still not putting a tracking app on my phone, it's just never going to happen.

Obviously I agree with you.

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20 minutes ago, Rue said:

Many of us are non partisan

 

You are a partisan loon, so you mislabeled President Trump here:

Quote

Trump is not a true conservative. He is not anything but Trump. He does whatever he believes in the split second. The only consistent  thing about his ideology is he does what he thinks suits him at the moment. Its hard to call him anything ideologically speaking. He does reflect distrust of government though big time and Americans love that.

 

And quit telling lies on me.  I am not trolling.

I am staying on topic, just like the article link I posted re: where this thread's theme originated from ---it's not my fault that you refused to discuss it when I stayed on topic with my link. I'm cool with you ignoring it. So stop whining here, since I didn't whine.

And remember too, no matter how many lies you tell on me, only I can post the truth about me ---and how I love every human yes all people. So if that makes me racist, because you hate that I always invalidate your argument?? Cool!

Edited by Tdot

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27 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

That is a great sentiment to put on a bumper sticker but I would give dying a miss if I could. A lot of people have lived as slaves rather than die. There were 3 million slaves in the US before the Civil War. There were millions of slaves in Nazi Germany during the war and many of them endured in the attempt to stay alive. The same for POW's captured by the Japanese. Life is a lot more precious than freedom for most people. I don't mean that those who choose liberty rather than life are not heros, but they are heros because their act is extraordinary.

 

If you are fine with using a tracking app then go for it.   Make it voluntary and there will be much more compliance, supporting the actual tracking goal.

Force people ("mandatory") and there will be far more pushback.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 Make it voluntary

 

 

The Dems wouldn't dream of it!

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1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

That is a great sentiment to put on a bumper sticker but I would give dying a miss if I could. A lot of people have lived as slaves rather than die. There were 3 million slaves in the US before the Civil War. There were millions of slaves in Nazi Germany during the war and many of them endured in the attempt to stay alive. The same for POW's captured by the Japanese. Life is a lot more precious than freedom for most people. I don't mean that those who choose liberty rather than life are not heros, but they are heros because their act is extraordinary.

Oh shit and yah  QW ...geez no one I hope on either  side of the debate questions anyone for surviving in cases like you said. I myself wrestle with that issue.  Soldiers go to their deaths unable to sleep questioning what they did. Survivors of genocide do that all the time. Its not something you want to witness anyone wrestle with . It tears people up inside. It causes suicides. I certainly do not presume to understand their pain and price they paid  and would never question that.

I also do not question the motives of anyone in regards to the Covid issue. Shit no. Just healthy debate.  We all are concerned what we do over Covid. This is the place to debate what we do. 

Hey some Americans take that motto damn seriously others make a mockery of it...for those who suffered having their freedom taken away or fought for it , I have to err on the side of caution for in any debate. Its my way of showing them respect...not taking for granted what they did and endured. I have seen some stuff myself and personally  with people in my age group over wars in the Middle East and Vietnam.  I can only stay at a respectful  distance and remain silent when a survivor or soldier talks. Not my place to do anything else. Likewise with some guys I knew who came back from Serbia and Afghanistan. Not my place but I take what they were trying to do with utmost respect and will never take for granted democracy. Can't.  Won't.   Totalitarianism even when it starts off well intended can so quickly turn. How many people need die to understand that? I listen to soldiers, refugees, people that lived in horrible regimes and got out of the Soviet controlled states. They are sobering teachers.

I want a world where you have freedom and are also safe. Hopefully we balance the two for your sake. I am getting up there. I will be long gone when you inherit what is left. I just  hope you have the freedom many came here to enjoy and others never were able to and so many died for.

 

 

Edited by Rue
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3 hours ago, Rue said:

You ask for people to give up their freedoms to the state and then assume the state will police itself and people should give blind trust.

No blind trust is not what I said at all.  Yes I realize bending the state's knee towards us will not be easy but please do not try to tell me it is not technologically feasible.

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18 minutes ago, Tdot said:

You are a partisan loon, so you mislabeled President Trump here:

And quit telling lies on me.  I am not trolling.

I am staying on topic, just like the article link I posted re: where this thread's theme originated from ---it's not my fault that you refused to discuss it when I stayed on topic with my link. I'm cool with you ignoring it. So stop whining here, since I didn't whine.

And remember too, no matter how many lies you tell on me, only I can post the truth about me ---and how I love every human yes all people. So if that makes me racist, because you hate that I always invalidate your argument?? Cool!

Your are a racist troll. You troll. You engage in insults to get attention. You are a troll and you use different names on this forum and you fool no one. You are a racist for your repeated attempts to incite people to engage you in racist taunts. 

The more you respond to me the more you prove and expose your trolling. You haven't a clue or  debate the issues of the thread. Run along. The more you respond the more I prove the point I am sure others now see. 

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No blind trust is not what I said at all.  Yes I realize bending the state's knee towards us will not be easy but please do not try to tell me it is not technologically feasible.

I can not say it is or is not and neither can you. That is why I can not give it the  trust you argue for not without far more thought and and specifics as to what is being proposed. 

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23 minutes ago, Rue said:

Come on Argus he is no more a supporter of  Trump or a Trump hater. Wes is pro Trump and agrees with you. We are DEBATING. I refuse to label you. I debate you because you know I respect your opinion.

You called me a totalitarian with a desire to control everyone. :huh:

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

 Many of us are non partisan but pro individual rights which is what OW means by conservative.

I was just reading a story about an ice cream parlor which re-opened in the US, and closed after one day. You know why? Because people were shouting insults and abuse at the teenage staff because they didn't want to social distance in lines and didn't want to order in advance as they were instructed to in all the signs.

There is a point when someone who believes in 'individual rights' turns into being just a narcissistic, anti-social asshole who only cares about himself. And Trump and his supporters are poster boys for that attitude.

I believe in individual rights. A LOT. But I also believe in community cooperation, especially in important matters which bear on the health and safety of that community.

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

True conservatism is  loath to have government initiate and prefers it done by individuals. That is what he meant.

Which in this case is impossible simply because there are too many assholes who make a fetish about not social distancing or taking precautions because 'the virus is fake news!"

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

Trump is not a true conservative. He is not anything but Trump. He does whatever he believes in the split second. The only consistent  thing about his ideology is he does what he thinks suits him at the moment. Its hard to call him anything ideologically speaking. He does reflect distrust of government though big time and Americans love that.

Do you see me saying a lot good about government or politicians? They're rarely efficient in the first case, and rarely honest in the second. Nevertheless, even I am forced to admit that public health care works better than a mishmash of private health care, that one police force and one fire department works better than the private sector could, and that public education is a necessary thing, despite how awful it is run. When it comes to diseases, individual actions are not going to cut it. We need to have everyone vaccinate in order to stop the likes of smallpox and mumps and chickenpox and measles and the like. And we need a similar level of cooperation on this. And that cooperation has to be mandated because too many people are sub literate cretins.

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

I agree with the basic concept we have to do early tracking of course. Just how we do it and how we protect individual rights is what I am arguing.

I admit that I've seized on this because of my unhappiness with our current tracking. Reading of people who have tested positive and haven't even been asked where they work or live, and hearing the Ontario Public Health Agency head confess that she had no idea who all the people still getting the virus were or what the demographics were like or where they worked or where it was coming from was frustrating in the extreme. I would like us to get back to normality without causing mass deaths. If a temporary tracking app will allow that then I'm not going to worry about it having the kind of data half a dozen apps on my phone already collect.

And yes, I do care about privacy. I use fake accounts to do google searches because I know they record EVERYTHING you type in.

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

Too easy to give the government powers until there are very real safeguards in place. The track record of our federal government on data leaks is horrible. For that matter data leaks provincially have happened.

And will continue to happen, so how is this any worse or even as bad as leaks from Canada Revenue Agency or health agencies with our medical records?

23 minutes ago, Rue said:

I prefer Ford's  measured approach where he is getting us in Ontario to volunteer without enforcing. Its far more effective and does work. Most of us are reasonable.

You also underestimate physicians do not readily want to give out info that is not strictly protected for their clients nor will they force treatment on clients without extremely extraordinary circumstances.

Physicians will not be part of a police operation and neither will nurses. Their practice is based on getting consent not imposing.

These tracking apps don't involve physicians. Did you not read the actual cite? All they do is track whether you've been near someone who tests positive. Then they send you a text telling you how close you were and whether they think you should go get tested.

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3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why would I want a foreign government or company have access to our data?

There should be privacy laws protecting all of our data, but there never will be.

Fine, just keep the lolly coming stay the fuck at home and wait for the vaccine.

Just don't come whining to me about stuffing a little more cash in the olde debt can and kicking it a little further on down the olde debt road.

Edited by eyeball

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33 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Yes of course I care.  I resisted text messaging for years, then resisted getting data on my phone for years.  But if you want to be a part of our society eventually you have to get this crap because everyone else uses it.  Unless you want to live off the grid in the woods.

I'm as careful as I can be.  I only download apps on my phone I need.  When I don't need it anymore, it's deleted.  I use a VPN.  But it's a losing battle.

But I'm still not putting a tracking app on my phone, it's just never going to happen.

You missed my point. You already HAVE a tracking app on your phone. And the government can already track you by your phone easily. Every time you move your phone does an electronic touch and feel kind of thing with network towers. They know where you are, even with NO tracking apps on the phone. Even if your phone is turned off.

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11 minutes ago, Rue said:

I can not say it is or is not and neither can you. That is why I can not give it the  trust you argue for not without far more thought and and specifics as to what is being proposed. 

Do so please and realize this; South Koreans are the most surveilled population in the history of the human race and they held free paper ballot elections during the most heavily monitored time in their history. They elected the incumbent government by a landslide, in a proportional representation vote no less.

Do not say something cannot be done when it is being done right in front of you. Just open your eyes man. How fucking hard can it be?  

Edited by eyeball

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People that believe in these apps that the government would have control over have lost sight of what the true intentions of government is and that is not to protect the people. There is an old saying about common sense not being that common. When was the last time that a government stood up for the people ? when?

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9 hours ago, Rue said:

Oh well then. 

Ok, let's pretend that you trust Trudeau with this kind of thing. Will he be PM forever?

Are we setting an example that will be followed in other countries whose leaders aren't as altruistic as our dear beloved supreme leader? 

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