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Independent1986

Left or Right Wing Populism

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I was watching a debate in which a left wing populist was agreeing with Steve Bannon (the knight of right wing populism). They both agreed that the way the economy is heading and the elite being out of touch with the average person it is just a matter of time until a populist revolution might emerge.

I think that populist revolution might be either right wing & ultranationalistic or left wing & communistic. 

This was even way before the virus hit and we are heading into dark times economically, people when they are afraid they tend to fall victim to the individuals on both extremes that can't wait for new recruitments. 

Any thoughts ? Will the average Canadian fall victim to the extremes like it is happening around the world or we will be able to keep it in the middle ? I want to debate communists and fascists, let us hear your opinion :)

Edited by Independent1986

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Populism isn't necessarily about fascism and communism.  It's about policies that are good for the masses of people of that country and their interests, not the interests of the elites, corporations, the rich, or people living outside their country.  Populism isn't about extremism.

The US needs leftwing and rightwing populism.  Canada needs more rightwing populism, but I'm not sure Canada needs much leftwing populism because we have strong socialism as it is that meets our needs pretty well.  The US needs leftwing populism because of the crappy situation with their healthcare and education.  But that's up to them to decide I guess.

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3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Populism isn't necessarily about fascism and communism.  It's about policies that are good for the masses of people of that country and their interests, not the interests of the elites, corporations, the rich, or people living outside their country.  Populism isn't about extremism.

The US needs leftwing and rightwing populism.  Canada needs more rightwing populism, but I'm not sure Canada needs much leftwing populism because we have strong socialism as it is that meets our needs pretty well.  The US needs leftwing populism because of the crappy situation with their healthcare and education.  But that's up to them to decide I guess.

It is slippery slope to adapt any kind of populism, any kind of "masses" only leads to atrocities in the long run. My opinion based on history. Every time "the people" had the power bad things happened. 

Edited by Independent1986
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We already have governments at extremes.

 

The federal government is a coalition government run by a group of people that admire the basic dictatorship of China (Trudeau's own words), praised Fidel Castro upon his death (Trudeau and Singh), make apologies for the Maduro regime in Venezuela (half the NDP), and had the leader of the Quebec Communist Party run as an candidate to be an MP (Bloc Quebecois). This coalition does not believe in constitutionally protected freedom of speech (which Canada does not have, see section 1 and section 33 of the charter) and want to silence whatever they deem to be "hate speech", does not believe in separation of media and state as a basic principle of democracy (see the never ending media bailout and ever increasing funding for CBC/radio-canada), instead they would like the government to determine what is "fake news" and what is not, and does not believe in equal application of law (compare the application of law to people that threw gasoline or burning tires on trains earlier this year to the application of law of excessive fines to people walking in a park or using public transportation). The government is out of step with other developed countries (Australia, Japan, US, Europe) in its desire to please the Communist Party of China and uncritical support of the WHO, which has Tedros Adhanom, a communist, as its head. Canada still fails to support Australia's bid for a full independent inquiry into the origins of COVID-19, and still fails to recognize Taiwan as a country, at the bidding of the Communist Party of China. This recent pandemic has helped to shed light on the authoritarian nature of some of those in power.

 

Trump is another example of an extremist in power.

Edited by -1=e^ipi
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2 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

I was watching a debate in which a left wing populist was agreeing with Steve Bannon (the knight of right wing populism). They both agreed that the way the economy is heading and the elite being out of touch with the average person it is just a matter of time until a populist revolution might emerge.

I think that populist revolution might be either right wing & ultranationalistic or left wing & communistic. 

This was even way before the virus hit and we are heading into dark times economically, people when they are afraid they tend to fall victim to the individuals on both extremes that can't wait for new recruitments. 

Any thoughts ? Will the average Canadian fall victim to the extremes like it is happening around the world or we will be able to keep in the middle ? I want to debate fascists and communists, let us hear your opinion :)

I don't see how this teamwork effort would work, considering so many societal differences between the two groups. The two groups agree on this one (1) sole huge issue, and they disagree on 30+ huge issues. Therefore I think it is not hardly about a rightwing-leftwing revolution, and it is exactly about leftwing citizens/leftwing voters having an awakening. Right wing elites are outraged like you and Bannon and hate the idea of going another day keeping a society in lockdown, to destroy the economy and citizenry morale. Wheras Left wing elites are who shut down the economy and publicly state that they want the society locked down for another 3 months at least.

So it essentially is all about what leftwing citizens are going to do, now that the mask is coming off of their leaders who hate Canada/USA/traditional N.American ways of life

Edited by Tdot

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1 hour ago, Independent1986 said:

It is slippery slope to adapt any kind of populism, any kind of "masses" only leads to atrocities in the long run. My opinion based on history. Every time "the people" had the power bad things happened. 

Democracy is about having "the people" holding the power.  Democracy is populism.  Show me these times when "the people" have had the power and bad things happened?

Every time the elites or a small cadre of people hold the power, bad things happen. 

What's the "slippery slope"?

Edited by Moonlight Graham

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36 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Democracy is about having "the people" holding the power.  Democracy is populism.  Show me these times when "the people" have had the power and bad things happened?

Every time the elites or a small cadre of people hold the power, bad things happen. 

What's the "slippery slope"?

Do you honestly think us, "the people" elect governments and the PM, President ? The system is well designed to give us the illusion that we have freedom and we are the ones that put people in office. But you know what ? The more I look what "the people" did (Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot) when they had the power maybe it is better like this. Balance is maintained, one example is the US (Bush Sr. - Clinton; then Bush Jr. - Obama; then Trump then ?) and the masses think they have voted them in :)

Edited by Independent1986

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23 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Do you honestly think us, "the people" elect governments and the PM, President ? The system is well designed to give us the illusion that we have freedom and we are the ones that put people in office. But you know what ? The more I look what "the people" did (Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot) when they had the power maybe it is better like this. Balance is maintained, one example is the US (Bush Sr. - Clinton; then Bush Jr. - Obama; then Trump then ?) and the masses think they have voted them in :)

Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot were totalitarian dictators.  They were not accountable to the people in any way whatsoever, and all dissent was crushed and dissenters thrown in jail or killed.  The people controlled absolutely nothing under them.  Elect democratic governments that work for your interests, not the interests of the rich and elites and people in foreign countries, and hold them democratically accountable.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/

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7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot were totalitarian dictators.  They were not accountable to the people in any way whatsoever, and all dissent was crushed and dissenters thrown in jail or killed.  The people controlled absolutely nothing under them.  Elect democratic governments that work for your interests, not the interests of the rich and elites and people in foreign countries, and hold them democratically accountable.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/

Study the history of Stalin and Hitler and you will understand the danger of "masses" . They used to talk like this: "the interest of the rich and elites".  That link you sent me is correct, if you look in history it all started with a series of small events (populism) then it went to communism or fascism. The key is with the individual, if we better our self daily and stay away from the brainwashing of the masses we can make society better. 

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6 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Study the history of Stalin and Hitler and you will understand the danger of "masses" . They used to talk like this: "the interest of the rich and elites".  That link you sent me is correct, if you look in history it all started with a series of small events (populism) then it went to communism or fascism. The key is with the individual, if we better our self daily and stay away from the brainwashing of the masses we can make society better. 

Not if the corrupt government elites are screwing you.

Hitler and Lenin tricked "the people" into giving them totalitarian non-democratic power.  That's the problem, not the interests of the people.  Go sell your hogwash to someone else.

The enemy is power in the hands of the few, not populism.  Lincoln said of the people, by the people, for the people.

Edited by Moonlight Graham

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9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Not if the corrupt government elites are screwing you.

Hitler and Lenin tricked "the people" into giving them totalitarian non-democratic power.  That's the problem, not the interests of the people.  Go sell your hogwash to someone else.

The enemy is power in the hands of the few, not populism.  Lincoln said of the people, by the people, for the people.

Name one system where "the masses" or "the people" movement did not lead to dictatorship ?

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14 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The American Revolution.

I will give you that one, don't have arguments to debate, but you have to remember this was before 1840. After 1840, after the ideas of the lunatic Karl Marx any kind of movement of masses was a disaster. Is nothing wrong to concentrate on individual rights, it is a safer route, the power of the masses can have devastating results even though you might have a few exceptions like the American Revolution.

Edited by Independent1986

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24 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I will give you that one, don't have arguments to debate, but you have to remember this was before 1840. After 1840, after the ideas of the lunatic Karl Marx any kind of movement of masses was a disaster. Is nothing wrong to concentrate on individual rights, it is a safer route, the power of the masses can have devastating results even though you might have a few exceptions like the American Revolution.

Have Trump and Doug Ford led to dictatorships?  No.  Trump is an ignorant arse who likes to grab vaginas, but voters knew that going in.

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14 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I will give you that one.

The French Revolution. My favourite because of its creation of the original meaning of the term left and right wing.

Why did conservatives split from the left wing and decide to be such lickspittles to their better's occupying the space to the right of the government?  It's odd that conservatives are so disdainful about people that are dependent on governments and yet they cozy up to the classes most dependent on governments for their welfare.

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The French Revolution. My favourite because of its creation of the original meaning of the term left and right wing.

Why did conservatives split from the left wing and decide to be such lickspittles to their better's occupying the space to the right of the government?  It's odd that conservatives are so disdainful about people that are dependent on governments and yet they cozy up to the classes most dependent on governments for their welfare.

I think if they collect a DNA sample from you, even in your dandruff they will find communistic DNA :D:D:D

Edited by Independent1986

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

The French Revolution. My favourite because of its creation of the original meaning of the term left and right wing.

Why did conservatives split from the left wing and decide to be such lickspittles to their better's occupying the space to the right of the government?  It's odd that conservatives are so disdainful about people that are dependent on governments and yet they cozy up to the classes most dependent on governments for their welfare.

Didn't that sh!t lead to Napoleon?  Lol

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15 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Have Trump and Doug Ford led to dictatorships?  No.  Trump is an ignorant arse who likes to grab vaginas, but voters knew that going in.

Doug Ford and Donald Trump are the illusion I was talking up there.  If the economy does not get any better, even the left wing will want Donald Trump or Ford back for the dictatorship that awaits if us, masses get pissed. I will include myself in this because every human being, in fear can become brainwashed and follow like a sheep.  

Edited by Independent1986

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13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Didn't that sh!t lead to Napoleon?  Lol

Sure who in turn led to;

Quote

 Napoleon's influence on the modern world brought liberal reforms to the numerous territories that he conquered and controlled, such as the Low Countries, Switzerland, and large parts of modern Italy and Germany. He implemented fundamental liberal policies in France and throughout Western Europe. His Napoleonic Code has influenced the legal systems of more than 70 nations around the world. British historian Andrew Roberts states: "The ideas that underpin our modern world—meritocracy, equality before the law, property rights, religious toleration, modern secular education, sound finances, and so on—were championed, consolidated, codified and geographically extended by Napoleon. To them he added a rational and efficient local administration, an end to rural banditry, the encouragement of science and the arts, the abolition of feudalism and the greatest codification of laws since the fall of the Roman Empire".[4] 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon

In any case it was the right/left definition that makes the French Revolution stand out to me. But what about the subsequent split between conservatives and progressives that both occupied the left wing in its original form and why did conservatives place themselves into a tighter orbit around authority?

Edited by eyeball

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16 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I think if they collect a DNA sample from you, even in your dandruff they will find communistic DNA :D:D:D

And something that predates Neanderthals in your's. 

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12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And something that predates Neanderthals in your's. 

That's your opinion, but I think based on facts, the way of thinking that focuses towards the individual betters society more than your fairy tale of communion marching towards Mao's picture.

Not sure what is more Neanderthalic in this case ? Me, as a free thinker or you as a sheep ? You might not believe in religion but you do belong to a cult, SOCIALISM even communism in some cases, too tired now too pull your past comments.

Only time will tell who's way of thinking will succeed. Remember: is not the strongest that will succeed, is the one that can adapt to change. It seems to me you are singing an old tune and are out of sync with what is happening today.

Edited by Independent1986

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37 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

That's your opinion, but I think based on facts, the way of thinking that focuses towards the individual betters society more than your fairy tale of communion marching towards Mao's picture.

No, your near constant reference to communists and Ayn Rand-like pronouncements denotes a mind ruled by typically concretized notions and memes that are getting as olde and stale as Mao's mouldering bones

Quote

Not sure what is more Neanderthalic in this case ? Me, as a free thinker or you as a sheep ?

You as a lickspittle to your betters.  I'm pretty much an anarchist and just as anathema to Jinping as...Pinochet.

Quote

You might not believe in religion but you do belong to a cult, SOCIALISM even communism in some cases, too tired now too pull your past comments.

What I'm really cultish about is monitoring and contact tracing politicians and invading every government on the planet's right to secrecy to as great an extent you say they have in mind for our privacy.  You clearly haven't heard or taken time to read a single thing I've written or you would realize we're on much the same side when it comes to our distrust of governments.    

Quote

Only time will tell who's way of thinking will succeed. Remember: is not the strongest that will succeed, is the one that can adapt to change. It seems to me you are singing an old tune and are out of sync with what is happening today.

Yes well like I said you're only hearing what you want to hear and since its not utter obsequiousness to conservatism then I'm a clearly a commie.  You're as stale and olde school as it gets when it comes to being what passes for a right-winger these days.  I bet it never occurred to you that communist dictators are probably amongst the most conservative people on the planet.   

Edited by eyeball

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20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I bet it never occurred to you that communist dictators are probably amongst the most conservative people on the planet.   

I used to love looking for patterns in my calculus class, in University, yes i went to school for Math, not for social sciences communism. The only pattern that I am seeing in this case for you, Mr. Eyeball is that people with your way of thinking create dictators. In a way you get what is coming to you. I cheers to you after my second glass of red wine. I won't apologize, because I paid for the wine, I did not get it for free from the government :D

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11 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I used to love looking for patterns in my calculus class, in University, yes i went to school for Math, not for social sciences communism. The only pattern that I am seeing in this case for you, Mr. Eyeball is that people with your way of thinking create dictators. In a way you get what is coming to you. I cheers to you after my second glass of red wine. I won't apologize, because I paid for the wine, I did not get it for free from the government :D

Yeah well I dropped out of school when I was fifteen and had reached my fill of snooty edumacated figures who lie and liars who figure by the time I was 20. I was probably a CEO running my own business when you were still some teacher's pet.

Let me guess, he you got a job crunching numbers for DFO.

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