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Left or Right Wing Populism


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16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Populism isn't necessarily about fascism and communism.  It's about policies that are good for the masses of people of that country and their interests, not the interests of the elites,

Or so they assume.... often wrongly.

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12 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Have Trump and Doug Ford led to dictatorships?  No.  Trump is an ignorant arse who likes to grab vaginas, but voters knew that going in.

Trump is also working within a system with deep democratic principles of law. He's doing his clumsy best to disassemble those principles, appointing yes-men to every position, firing all the watchdogs, decrying the media as 'enemies of the people', and calling for investigations of his political enemies. He now has an attorney general who has banned all investigations of Republicans and will seemingly do anything he's told. That AG is busily appointing like-minded people into the Justice Department even as Mitch McConnel, perhaps the greasiest leader of the senate in history, packs the courts with unprincipled zealots of the far right.

Give him a little more time. Time to pack those courts. Time for his Justice Department to investigate and arrest Democratic politicians, time for laws to be changed and then used against the media that criticize him. There is no one in his party who would protest any of this. They would be yapping their support all the way.

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17 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Any thoughts ? Will the average Canadian fall victim to the extremes like it is happening around the world or we will be able to keep it in the middle ? I want to debate communists and fascists, let us hear your opinion :)

Certainly. There is a rising clamor of support for Socialism, mostly by people who don't know what that is, granted. They seem to believe it means taking whatever 'the rich' have and giving it to them. And then assume life will be wonderful thereafter.

Even before Trudeau began cutting taxes for 'the poor' and pouring money over their heads only a little over half the income earners in this country paid income tax. That is very likely less than half now. Which means for most voters, whoever offers them the most free stuff is the one they'll vote for. That was Trudeau's campaign gambit that got him into power. He offered to take money from 'the rich' and give it to the 'middle class', whatever that is. He bribed people for their votes. And it worked like a charm. The Left will continue bribing people with government money, and as fewer and fewer people are responsible for paying taxes that strategy will grow increasingly more successful. You already hear growing cries for a universal basic income, because, apparently, getting money, and lots of it, without even a demonstrated need, is 'fair'. There's a lot of resentment among millennials for anyone who owns wealth, even middle class homeowners. These people are perfect recruits for the leftist academics who fill university teaching staffs these days.

I am growing increasingly reassured by the size of my nest egg, but considering where to move it to ensure some leftist government put in place by avaricious, entitled people, doesn't grab it to distribute to its supporters.

 

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16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Tommy Douglas, the "greatest" Canadian, was a populist.

No far from it. He came from a movement of Christians trying to promote what they  saw as a political application of the gospel of Jesus. It was also based on the perspective of farmers who needed to help each other get their grain to markets.

The classical example of populists in Canada were Marcel Duplessis, WAC Benett, Joey Smallwood. They used elaborate networks of patronage to keep them in power. Other than them if you mean pure ideology, maybe Louis Riel, Rene Levesque but their populism was limited.

It's not how we work in Canada.  Canadian politicians with big egos like Lougheed in Alberta, Mulroney, Pierre Trudeau had their share of haters. 

There was a brief period of Trudeaumania which was populist but it faded.

Edited by Rue
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1 hour ago, Argus said:

You already hear growing cries for a universal basic income, because, apparently, getting money, and lots of it, without even a demonstrated need, is 'fair'.

Milton Friedman also supported universal basic income.

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18 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Any thoughts ? Will the average Canadian fall victim to the extremes like it is happening around the world or we will be able to keep it in the middle ? I want to debate communists and fascists, let us hear your opinion :)

The average Canadian has fallen victim to the extreme if you think about it.

The extreme is when the mainstream media can tell lies to demonize a person/group, which people know are lies, but they still go along with them because of their own inner hatred. 

CNN has completely abandoned the truth and there's no denying it anymore. If you look back at their news reporting from the day that Van Jones was caught on camera admitting that Russian collusion was fake, you'll notice that a full 85% of CNN's reporting for the last year and a half has been fake.

For the people who openly wonder "How did Adolph Hitler do it?" look no further than the brainwashed CNN mob. 

Humans willingly abandon truth and knowledge all the time, and they're willing to kill for their fake reality. Look up "religion". Islamic state wasn't the first islamic group to commit genocide to spread the quran. It's their go-to. 

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1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Milton Friedman also supported universal basic income.

Friedman imagined it replacing all other social welfare programs, including public housing. Today's UBI supporters don't want that. They imagine it merely replacing some social welfare programs, like welfare and disability payments. Friedman also said you couldn't do this with immigration. Everyone in the third world would clamor to come and get that free money.

I've seen calculations people have done for the cost and it's enormous.

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16 hours ago, Sovereigntist said:

The "far left" and "far right" are both corrupt and equally destructive.

A lot of people picture the far left and the far right in a line (far away, different,opposite)  FL------------------------------------FR     however it is more like a sphere and if you picture it like a sphere you will see how the FL and FR are closer to each other and they need each other to be relevant.

Most of the time in history they became a reaction to each other. It is important to remember though that is the responsibility of us, the middle of the road individuals to not allow any extreme or mob mentality rule a society. Stalin & Hitler, 2 examples of both extremes could not have become so powerful if it wasn't for fear (economic, social and uncertainty) that made the average person close his/her eyes to the crimes that they were happening. Fear creates masses and masses lead to terrible things.

There was a time when masses were necessary for change (civil rights & women's rights) however I believe we live in a society now that ensures equality for each individual that wants it. Is time to enjoy this individual freedom and stay away from group thinking. Even groups with great ideas like #MeToo are losing their pursuit of equality, I recall a founder saying one time on twitter "If some innocent men get caught in the campaign it will be worth it". This is precisely what happens when people have group thinking, they lose their rational thinking and abuse of power happens. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited by Independent1986
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16 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Is time to enjoy this individual freedom and stay away from group thinking.

So says the guy who dismisses people as commies with about as much thought as the rest of usual suspects in his group.  But let me guess your intentions are good, right?

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On May 16, 2020 at 8:51 AM, Argus said:

Trump is also working within a system with deep democratic principles of law. He's doing his clumsy best to disassemble those principles, appointing yes-men to every position, firing all the watchdogs, decrying the media as 'enemies of the people', and calling for investigations of his political enemies. He now has an attorney general who has banned all investigations of Republicans and will seemingly do anything he's told. That AG is busily appointing like-minded people into the Justice Department even as Mitch McConnel, perhaps the greasiest leader of the senate in history, packs the courts with unprincipled zealots of the far right.

Give him a little more time. Time to pack those courts. Time for his Justice Department to investigate and arrest Democratic politicians, time for laws to be changed and then used against the media that criticize him. There is no one in his party who would protest any of this. They would be yapping their support all the way.

No matter how many of these same ol tired, false or disingenuous statements you make about President Trump, it still did not change, how your analysis of the topic here is simply not based in logic. Thats if your analysis is like @Independent1986 and think any teamwork effort would work, considering so many societal differences between the two groups in the OP here.

Staying on topic, I reiterate that the two groups agree on this one (1) sole huge 'economy' issue, and they disagree on 30+ huge issues.

Therefore it is not hardly about a rightwing-leftwing revolution, and it is exactly about leftwing citizens/leftwing voters having an awakening. Right wing elites are outraged like the OP here and Bannon so they also hate the idea of going another day keeping a society in lockdown, to destroy the economy and citizenry morale. Wheras Left wing elites are who shut down the economy and publicly state that they want the society locked down for another 3 months at least.

So you never presented anything contrary to how this is all about, what are leftwing citizens are going to do, now that the mask is coming off of their leaders who hate Canada/USA/traditional N.American ways of life??

Edited by Tdot
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6 hours ago, Tdot said:

No matter how many of these same ol tired, false or disingenuous statements you make about President Trump, it still did not change, how your analysis of the topic here is simply not based in logic. Thats if your analysis is like @Independent1986 and think any teamwork effort would work, considering so many societal differences between the two groups in the OP here.

Staying on topic, I reiterate that the two groups agree on this one (1) sole huge 'economy' issue, and they disagree on 30+ huge issues.

Therefore it is not hardly about a rightwing-leftwing revolution, and it is exactly about leftwing citizens/leftwing voters having an awakening. Right wing elites are outraged like the OP here and Bannon so they also hate the idea of going another day keeping a society in lockdown, to destroy the economy and citizenry morale. Wheras Left wing elites are who shut down the economy and publicly state that they want the society locked down for another 3 months at least.

So you never presented anything contrary to how this is all about, what are leftwing citizens are going to do, now that the mask is coming off of their leaders who hate Canada/USA/traditional N.American ways of life??

I think it has been a confusion. They both mentioned that they will be a revolution however I never said that they agreed which type of populist (right or left) revolution might emerge. That's what the debate was about. That's why I mentioned that either people will fall for a ultra-nationalistic message or a communist message however is not rare to see the extremes together.

In France, in the yellow jackets protest there were communist groups side by side with National Front groups. They work together because change of society is attractive to people that are not happy with it.

Edited by Independent1986
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3 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

I think it has been a confusion...

Yes, I agree. And that confusion is the, idea, that the rightwing would need any type of Revolution. It is simply not the case and that idea runs contrary to recent, factual history regarding what the rightwing opposes about the leftwing's globalism antics. So it makes it unfair to deem this a populists movement, when that is not hardly the roots of it.

The leftwing is the sole entity which needs a revival here because the leftwing's leaders are the only ones flagrant within the economy's extended lockdown at the foundation of your OP here. The the rightwing wants the same thing it wanted on the day before we ever heard of a CoronaVirus pandemic.

Therefore your thread's theme and OP might should be, fairer, in terms of identifying that the leftwing is one (1) sole group in need of a Revolution here ---as the rightwing only needed to continue on its same course since 2015

Edited by Tdot
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1 hour ago, Tdot said:

Yes, I agree. And that confusion is the, idea, that the rightwing would need any type of Revolution. It is simply not the case and that idea runs contrary to recent, factual history regarding what the rightwing opposes about the leftwing's globalism antics. So it makes it unfair to deem this a populists movement, when that is not hardly the roots of it.

The leftwing is the sole entity which needs a revival here because the leftwing's leaders are the only ones flagrant within the economy's extended lockdown at the foundation of your OP here. The the rightwing wants the same thing it wanted on the day before we ever heard of a CoronaVirus pandemic.

Therefore your thread's theme and OP might should be, fairer, in terms of identifying that the leftwing is one (1) sole group in need of a Revolution here ---as the rightwing only needed to continue on its same course since 2015

To be honest if I were to be brainwashed as a left winger and I took a look at Nancy Pelosi, Diane Fenstein & the elites in the entertainment as the leaders (and out of touch with the every day person) & combine that with listening to ugly conservatives like Limbaugh I would probably become a communist and support Bernie Sanders :))))) I empathize to where they are coming from but is sad because in the long run left wing idealists like @eyeball become slaves to a dictator that indirectly they create.

Not to mention the reaction that they create after which innocent people suffer. There is even documentation from Germany that the reason the criminal SS was tolerated in the streets by middle class German citizens was because communist mobs were looting and causing trouble. So they kind of closed their eyes and sold their soul to the mafia.

My biggest fear are not communists and fascists. they are a small minority of unsatisfied people that failed, and sometimes they failed because of bad luck and they are angry. 

My biggest fear is the average middle of the road person will be attracted by these messages and their numbers will increase which will lead to social disruption. 

Edited by Independent1986
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On 5/18/2020 at 7:57 AM, Independent1986 said:

...in the long run left wing idealists like @eyeball become slaves to a dictator that indirectly they create.

Would you please explain how outlawing the in-camera lobbying of our politicians and senior government officials would lead to us becoming slaves to a dictator?

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