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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

So, the first leader to declare war on Hitler and Nazism is under fire with calls to change the name of Sir Winston Churchill Blvd. Thoughts?

From the article

Quote

According to the petition, the former British prime minister has a long history of racist and offensive views, which petition-starters say have no place in Mississauga....

...In an infamous statement to the Palestine Royal Commission, Churchill said that he doesn't believe "a great wrong," was done to "the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia," because "a stronger race a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." 

The petition highlights that Churchill also “advocated for the use of chemical weapons, primarily against Kurds and Afghans,” and that he called Indians “a beastly people” that he hated.

Sound like we should be thankful he didn't declare an alliance with Hitler.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

From the article

Sound like we should be thankful he didn't declare an alliance with Hitler.

As I thought, no perspective on this.  If it wasn’t for Churchill’s big push to fight Hitler, the western world with its current freedoms probably wouldn’t exist.  What a short memory and lack of respect for the sacrifices of our grandparents.  I guess the world looks quite different to those who had freedom handed to them. I guess we haven’t learned much.  I wonder how the 6 million dead Jewish ancestors, half a million American and Canadian soldiers, and 20 million Russian soldiers who fought fascism would see the lack of gratitude.  I sincerely hope we don’t learn the hard way again.  History has a way of repeating itself when it’s forgotten or rewritten.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

As I thought, no perspective on this.  If it wasn’t for Churchill’s big push to fight Hitler, the western world with its current freedoms probably wouldn’t exist.  What a short memory and lack of respect for the sacrifices of our grandparents.  I guess the world looks quite different to those who had freedom handed to them as opposed to the ones who had to fight to protect it.   I guess we haven’t learned much.  I wonder how the 6 million dead Jewish ancestors, half a million Americans and Canadians, and 20 million Russian soldiers who fought fascism would see the lack of gratitude.  I sincerely hope we don’t learn the hard way again.  History has a way of repeating itself when it’s forgotten or rewritten.  

I suppose we could say it takes a racist to catch a racist. Could that be the lesson we need to learn or is that racists can do good too?

I wonder what many of fascism's victims would say about the protests against racism today?

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28 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I suppose we could say it takes a racist to catch a racist. Could that be the lesson we need to learn or is that racists can do good too?

I wonder what many of fascism's victims would say about the protests against racism today?

I don’t know if you visited the political prison section of Auschwitz-Birkenau, but the prisoners who were gassed there were mostly progressives in today’s terms.   Whatever racism Churchill exclaimed, the reality of his work was to prevent the silencing and elimination of progressive thinkers and minorities. Racism by today’s standards was the prevailing viewpoint then and there were far fewer visible minorities in countries like Britain and Canada.

It’s easy to criticize and overlook the achievements of past leaders because of their imperfection by today’s standards, but much of the privilege that today allows us to criticize derived from these leaders’ efforts.  I’m not sure today’s leaders would have the grit and determination it takes to defend our current freedoms.  The progressive posturing of people who never had to fight much for anything probably wouldn’t stand up to much under pressure of war.  Just a guess.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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Churchill was what he was.  He's probably one of the most written about people in history, so there's nothing hidden. 

If petty people want to indulge themselves, and the cowards in charge want to let them, there's nothing to be done.  I'm not masking up and heading to the barricades. 

I still have my books.

For now.

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Book burnings are next.  Renaming and pulling Statues of  Winston Churchill is a step too far, no doubt most people harboured those thoughts in those days, but their greater good outweighs that.   This has to stop, but how?

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6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 It’s easy to criticize and overlook the achievements of past leaders because of their imperfection by today’s standards, but much of the privilege that today allows us to criticize derived from these leaders’ efforts.  I’m not sure today’s leaders would have the grit and determination it takes to defend our current freedoms.  The progressive posturing of people who never had to fight much for anything probably wouldn’t stand up to much under pressure of war.  Just a guess.  

I agree with you, but in a culture war there are different pressures indeed.  I identify as conservative now, so I will help soften the blow of having the heroes of the past removed from public view.  Good luck to all of us - especially Nietzsche, Beethoven, and the other Germans... 

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7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t know if you visited the political prison section of Auschwitz-Birkenau, but the prisoners who were gassed there were mostly progressives in today’s terms.   Whatever racism Churchill exclaimed, the reality of his work was to prevent the silencing and elimination of progressive thinkers and minorities. Racism by today’s standards was the prevailing viewpoint then and there were far fewer visible minorities in countries like Britain and Canada.

It’s easy to criticize and overlook the achievements of past leaders because of their imperfection by today’s standards, but much of the privilege that today allows us to criticize derived from these leaders’ efforts.  I’m not sure today’s leaders would have the grit and determination it takes to defend our current freedoms.  The progressive posturing of people who never had to fight much for anything probably wouldn’t stand up to much under pressure of war.  Just a guess.  

Just a guess but I'm willing to bet you think conservatives still have the grit.  It's even easier to see how the regressive views of the majority from the past remain in effect when so many have been put up on pedestals.

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1 hour ago, scribblet said:

Book burnings are next.  Renaming and pulling Statues of  Winston Churchill is a step too far, no doubt most people harboured those thoughts in those days, but their greater good outweighs that.   This has to stop, but how?

Probably by putting racism behind us.

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Until the 1950's everyone was racist. We probably still are but in North America, it has been recognized as wrong. Before the war, it was pretty much accepted that the other races were inferior, no matter which race you belonged to. The Blackfeet oppressed, colonized and drove out the Kootenai from southern Alberta long before Europeans arrived. It is a pattern repeated all over the world. The Beaker people colonized and oppressed the indigenous people of England thousands of years ago. 

Churchill was a rare person who was not anti-Semitic. We tend to apply 21st century North American values to people who live(d) in a different universe.

Edited by Queenmandy85
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18 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

https://www.mississauga.com/news-story/10017802-online-petition-calls-for-renaming-of-winston-churchill-boulevard-in-mississauga/
 

So, the first leader to declare war on Hitler and Nazism is under fire with calls to change the name of Sir Winston Churchill Blvd. Thoughts?

The Left hates our past, our traditions, and our values. It has this belief that once they're all cast down they will be able to build a new society, a utopia without racism, discrimination or economic disparity. This is not a new thought, but every successful revolution in the past has led to more of the same. See Russia, France, etc.

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9 hours ago, scribblet said:

Book burnings are next.  Renaming and pulling Statues of  Winston Churchill is a step too far, no doubt most people harboured those thoughts in those days, but their greater good outweighs that.   This has to stop, but how?

Burn it all to the ground.. every bit of it....Beginning to see what fuels Dougies dislike for this nation was all about.....The left has been empowered because their is no one out there from the right has the leadership skills to stop all this BS, and some day it is going to meet critical mass.....so ya the faster the better....

What fuels the left, I really think their main objective is just to piss off the right, most of what they do makes no difference at all....I think we let them have their day in the sand box, stop giving them the satisfaction of getting under our skin...ignore them, one day soon "hopefully" they will be regulated back to the closets they crawled out of....and the right will spend their time undoing everything Justin and his merry gang of feminists have screwed up....and we can sit back and watch their heads explode one by one as things get back to normal....

What is so important about a street name in Mississauga....Is this the hill we make our stand on, some street here , or Ottawa, let them have their day in the sunshine, is this battle going to effect us in any way... Not today it is not... number /letter/ color all the street names, same with schools, hockey arenas, parks, who cares....I'M curious, what the history class is going to be like in 10 years time, "who was john a MacDonald... any way, " just some racist prick, that was one of our founding fathers, or does he even get mentioned in the new history.....

To you leftist wingnuts  I'm handing out boxes of matches for free....just send me your name...

 

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8 hours ago, eyeball said:

Probably by putting racism behind us.

But we're importing hundreds of thousands of racists every year.

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On 6/11/2020 at 1:23 AM, Zeitgeist said:

https://www.mississauga.com/news-story/10017802-online-petition-calls-for-renaming-of-winston-churchill-boulevard-in-mississauga/
 

So, the first leader to declare war on Hitler and Nazism is under fire with calls to change the name of Sir Winston Churchill Blvd. Thoughts?

Neville Chamberlain declared war on Germany.

I’m not a massive fan of Churchill but he was a great man and I don’t think we should be erasing the past.  

Edited by SpankyMcFarland

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42 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

Neville Chamberlain declared war on Germany.

I’m not a massive fan of Churchill but he was a great man and I don’t think we should be erasing the past.  

Only because he finally listened to Churchill after the failed attempt at appeasement.  Now that’s a word to consider as we discuss dismantling police forces and removing monuments.  

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15 hours ago, Argus said:

But we're importing hundreds of thousands of racists every year.

No we're not, I'm fairly certain there are a few amongst them but I highly doubt its anywhere near what you're alleging. In any case I have no issue with deporting any when they're proven to be racist.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

No we're not, I'm fairly certain there are a few amongst them but I highly doubt its anywhere near what you're alleging. In any case I have no issue with deporting any when they're proven to be racist.

Were you not just a couple of post ago, screaming bloody blue murder that Canada has a major problem with systematic racism....and countries like Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and dozens upon dozens more they only have a few amongst all of them, have you been to any of these countries and spent some time in them, for you it's just white conservatives that can be racist....time to get back in your tree before the crazy white people come back..

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So, the first leader to declare war on Hitler and Nazism is under fire with calls to change the name of Sir Winston Churchill Blvd. Thoughts?

Lol.  Governments will cater to the wing-nuts.  

 

Everything is getting changed - even Gone with the Wind is getting some revisions.

   Lol.  Just heard Matthew McConaughey had just apoligized for being white! :rolleyes:  

I'm telling you - it must be something in those bottled water!

Edited by betsy

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On 6/11/2020 at 8:56 AM, bcsapper said:

I still have my books.

For now.

Hang on to those books!  They'll become rare items.   IF,  they don't become illegal!

Edited by betsy

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People opposed to taking down the Churchill statue are being described as "far right"...  there maybe some but this is a step too far for most Brits who are willing to take a stand.  I have a cousin there who is a left wing unionist who says if he were younger and physically able, he would be there. 

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28 minutes ago, scribblet said:

People opposed to taking down the Churchill statue are being described as "far right"...  there maybe some but this is a step too far for most Brits who are willing to take a stand.  I have a cousin there who is a left wing unionist who says if he were younger and physically able, he would be there. 

Since the murder of MP Jo Cox the far right have been closly monitored here in the UK.

If the authorities are saying that they are on the streets I think you can take them at their word.

That's not to say all the statue protecting protesters are far right though.

Those peacefully protecting Churchill's statue in Parliament Square were mostly army veterans but those throwing rocks, bottles and fireworks at the police in Westminister were not so peaceful.

The 5 pm deadline to clear the streets passed an hour ago and so far most protesters on both sides appear to be complying.

Edited by Iceni warrior

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On 6/11/2020 at 1:11 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Churchill was a rare person who was not anti-Semitic.

It would be rather churlish of him to be otherwise, given that he was saved from his creditors on more than one occasion by generous Jewish friends. 

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On 6/12/2020 at 12:38 PM, Army Guy said:

Were you not just a couple of post ago, screaming bloody blue murder that Canada has a major problem with systematic racism....and countries like Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and dozens upon dozens more they only have a few amongst all of them, have you been to any of these countries and spent some time in them, for you it's just white conservatives that can be racist....time to get back in your tree before the crazy white people come back..

Did you catch Michaelle Jean's contribution to race relations in the Globe the other day?

"Of all the scourges afflicting humanity, the most devastating and recurrent is racism. Largely propelled by the ideological belief in the supremacy of a “white race," this infamy was forged in the fire and fury of colonial conquest, a true calamity inflicted around the globe."

This despite the fact any reasonable assessment would show that white countries are the least racist in the world. And not a word about the racism in Africa, Asia, India or the Middle East from her. Then she goes on to mention slavery, but only the slavery which involved white people. No mention of the far larger slavery which brought black Africans up the east coast of Africa and into the middle east centuries before Columbus found America, much less the million or more white Europeans captured and enslaved by Barbary warlords and pirates. And of course, nothing about the slavery in China and India and other countries.

It's all the fault of those horrible white people.

 

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