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August1991

Liberals/Progressives vs Conservatives

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In these troubled/confusing times for Americans, as a foreigner, may I state some simple truths?

1) All Americans want America to be a good place.

2) Progressive/Liberal Americans are impatient to make America a better place.

3) Conservative Americans also want to make America a great place.

=====

American? Black/white? Be proud of what you have accomplished.

The richest Africans in the world live in America.

Asians with the highest incomes live in America.

White Europeans? They fled their violent continent to live among you. 

=====

You Americans, with your Constitution of more than two centuries, have created a sustainable, civilized society.  

 

 

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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Both sides think they are right in what they believe, before it was: I am right you are wrong, now is I am good you are evil. 

You have families not talking to each other over politics, I am dealing with something similar right now. Different sides are using the agitation that is happening in the world to push their political point and combine that with the COVID lock down it is a perfect recipe for chaos.

We will all be okay as long as we don't choose a side, history is full of fanatics fighting each other. Sometimes is better to grab the popcorn and watch the show.

Edited by Independent1986
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7 minutes ago, August1991 said:

In these troubled/confusing times for Americans, as a foreigner, may I state some simple truths?

1) All Americans want America to be a good place.

2) Progressive/Liberal Americans are impatient to make America a better place.

3) Conservative Americans also want to make America a great place.

Conservative Americans want to go backwards whereas progressive Americans want to go the other direction.  It's an increasingly unbridgeable divide that seems bound to rip the place apart.

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4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

progressive Americans want to go the other direction.

Sometimes it matters at what speed the train of progress goes by. Too much speed and the disregard of your fellow passengers might cause the train to derail. There has to be a balance to every movement of change in a society. To deny that, is called arrogance.

Edited by Independent1986

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4 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Both sides think they are right in what they believe, before it was: I am right you are wrong, now is I am good you are evil. 

You have families not talking to each other over politics, I am dealing with something similar right now. Different sides are using the agitation that is happening in the world to push their political point and combine that with the COVID lock down it is a perfect recipe for chaos.

We will all be okay as long as we don't choose a side, history is full of fanatics fighting each other.

The recipe for chaos was written decades ago.  COVID was simply the tipping point.

Quote

Sometimes is better to grab the popcorn and watch the show.

When I told OftenWrong I was doing just that he came unglued.

Quote

Both sides think they are right in what they believe, before it was: I am right you are wrong, now is I am good you are evil.

Oh c'mon do you honestly think comparing people to some of the worst mass murderers in history is right and good when you're espousing your beliefs?  It's phenomenal how tone deaf you folks can be.  Do you imagine you're original or something? This sort of you're a commie knee jerkery has been a staple around this forum and the two that preceded it for just about two decades now.

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8 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Sometimes it matters at what speed the train of progress goes by. Too much speed and the disregard of your fellow passengers might cause the train to derail. There has to be a balance to every movement of change in a society. To deny that, is called arrogance.

Pffft, change is, was and always will be verboten to conservatives.  The only time I recall conservatives embracing change is when it proves positive and they try to claim it was their idea.  Bullet trains seem to have a pretty good track record - probably a lefty that came up with the idea.

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11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Oh c'mon do you honestly think comparing people to some of the worst mass murderers in history is right and good when you're espousing your beliefs?  

The only difference is, I am 1 step ahead, I recognize my BIAS and my self defense mechanism, is based on family trauma and if you get offended because of that comparison, I will like to add that those communist mass murders in history, all of them, got their power from idealists like yourself. Lots of sharks in the world that can't wait to feed on your views to get power and commit atrocities. 

Edited by Independent1986

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14 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

The only difference is, I am 1 step ahead, I recognize my BIAS and my self defense mechanism, is based on family trauma and if you get offended because of that comparison, I will like to add that those communist mass murders in history, all of them, got their power from idealists like yourself. Lots of sharks in the world that can't wait to feed on your views to get power and commit atrocities. 

Yeah well my bias is probably based on the attempted genocide committed against my family by wealthy sycophantic lords who got their power from an imperialist King.

There's just no end to the number of assholes in the world alright.

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12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Conservative Americans want to go backwards whereas progressive Americans want to go the other direction.  It's an increasingly unbridgeable divide that seems bound to rip the place apart.

That’s just meaningless nonsense.  Nobody wants to go backwards.  But forwards or backwards is subjective.  Regardless, if anyone feels like there’s a country elsewhere where they’d be better off, they’re free to move there.

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20 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah well my bias is probably based on the attempted genocide committed against my family by wealthy sycophantic lords who got their power from an imperialist King.

There's just no end to the number of assholes in the world alright.

This isn't the first time you brought this up. Is it really that big of a deal eyeball?

You talk about being progressive and moving forward, yet by your own admission, your whole life is revolving around the murder of 25 (clan MacDonald's own verified number of slain, there may have been more) to a high of 38 people that happened 328 years ago.

Are you f'n kidding me?

FYI that wasn't the only "genocide" of the past 3 centuries. Pakistan committed two genocides in the last 80 years that were several orders of magnitude greater than that. 10M people died when Pakistan separated in the late '40s, and then their government killed 3M people when Bangladesh separated. Their militias also committed the systemic genocidal rape of 300,000 women. Way, way, way back in 1971. 49 years ago. Mostly Hindus though. Is the death of 3,000,000 Hindus not as important to you as the deaths of 25 MacDonalds?

Guess what eyeball. If the Pakistanis only killed 25 people every day, and they started doing it on the same day as Glencoe, they'd just be finishing up right around now. That's literally like the entire Glencoe slaughter, every single day, from Feb 13 1692 until today. 

Your extremely small/narrow version of history explains a lot.

Canada just let 30 members of islamic state back to walk free here. How many deaths do you think those 30 terrorists were responsible for eyeball? How many women and children do you think they helped to enslave? Were the deaths by the hands of those terrorists (or bonny fighters, according to our PM) no big deal, compared to the deaths of some of Clan MacDonald 328 years ago?

You're and embarrassment to your ancestors, with your puny cries of anger for their plight. Theirs was a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. 

I'll admit to a certain admiration for the Bruce. I read Nigel Tranter's books about 20 years ago. But even I'll admit that the whole tribal/clan system was the epitome of thinking small. As much as I hate the Plantagenet for what he did to the Scots, his end goal was just a unified country, which would mean the end of the ceaseless clan wars which were no more worthwhile than England's plan to unite the Isles. 

Progressive people don't fixate on things that happened 328 years ago. They don't fixate on the 1760s. They don't fixate on the 1860s. They look at the progress made by America in just the last 150 years. Progress unmatched by most other countries over the course of more than a millennium. How far has Saudi Arabia come since 1500 eyeball? How far has Iran come? 

You're talking about a gleaming beacon of peace and unity that's unmatched in history as if it's the scourge of the planet.

You. Think. Small. 

You need to see the world from 20,000 feet son. 50,000 feet. We'll never see eye to eye because you've got the grand vision of an earthworm in a wheel rut. 

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20 hours ago, Shady said:

That’s just meaningless nonsense.  Nobody wants to go backwards.  But forwards or backwards is subjective.  Regardless, if anyone feels like there’s a country elsewhere where they’d be better off, they’re free to move there.

Could say the same to the MAGA crowd no? 

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13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

20200611_212901.thumb.jpg.107a4d64f6c65b89204009a822f230ed.jpg

What direction does she wants to go in ?

Prison by the looks of it.

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12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

This isn't the first time you brought this up. Is it really that big of a deal eyeball?

You talk about being progressive and moving forward, yet by your own admission, your whole life is revolving around the murder of 25 (clan MacDonald's own verified number of slain, there may have been more) to a high of 38 people that happened 328 years ago.

Are you f'n kidding me?

No, it happened just like the attempt on Indy 1986's and Rue's families. I was raised in a family that took it seriously and I admit my bias was probably also shaped by watching Braveheart when occupying DFO's offices. I have a few native friends who feel much the same way about how their families were treated too.  My life certainly doesn't revolve around it and in fact I've joked about it with Campbell's I've known but why shouldn't I refer to it amongst people that are referring to their own families history as justification for how they feel about the present?   

Quote

You. Think. Small. 

You need to see the world from 20,000 feet son. 50,000 feet. We'll never see eye to eye because you've got the grand vision of an earthworm in a wheel rut. 

Yeah well, we live in a world where you're either with us or against us now and I need to see the world from the POV of a camera and microphone in the smoke-filled rooms where decisions to snuff out justifiable resistance are made and so do you.  Even a wheel rut is in the clouds compared to your position deep below the worm's belly.  

Edited by eyeball

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21 hours ago, Shady said:

That’s just meaningless nonsense.  Nobody wants to go backwards.  But forwards or backwards is subjective.  Regardless, if anyone feels like there’s a country elsewhere where they’d be better off, they’re free to move there.

When are you leaving?

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Lately, I'm hearing the 2 sides described as those who believe in equality of opportunity versus those who believe in equality of outcome.

The opportunity guys are about the rights of the individual and the belief they can decide what's best for them and theirs better than the government. That's not to say there shouldn't be any government but ideally no more than you need to keep a society functioning and anything more grudgingly.

You can find what likes to be called classic liberals and what I'll call call classic conservatives on this side. And these two groups might not agree on everything but they can talk to each other.

The equality of outcome guys believe in order to keep things fair equality has to be managed. More government is how you do it. And there doesn't seem to be a limit.

This is where you find the "Progressives." The thing about 'Progressives' is they aren't actually progressive. Some classic liberals call them the 'regressive left'. I'm not sure that's accurate because you'll see them infiltrating and attempting to hijack both classic sides.  Self identifying progressives don't actually fit the definition of politically "progressive" as commonly defined. If you'd like to see what I mean use the definition of progressive Wikipedia uses and find me a progressive. They don't exist.

What you will find in the reality of the progressive movement, is identity politics. The balkanizing of society into perverted groups moving with twisted attempts at imagined equity, tribalistically chanting beliefs in their superior virtue, calling for a unified government management they believe must recognize their scattered priorities. They are prepared to dismantle what is out of some vague internalized belief in some vague external promise of Utopia on the other end with a benign all powerful government watching over them.

I sometimes think of those calling themselves progressives as progressive socialists - even if they don't know it themselves. Other times I think of them as a virus currently infecting western society. 

 

Edited by Infidel Dog
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26 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, it happened just like the attempt on Indy 1986's and Rue's families. I was raised in a family that took it seriously and I admit my bias was probably also shaped by watching Braveheart when occupying DFO's offices. I have a few native friends who feel much the same way about how their families were treated too.  My life certainly doesn't revolve around it and in fact I've joked about it with Campbell's I've known but why shouldn't I refer to it amongst people that are referring to their own families history as justification for how they feel about the present?   

John: "I have cancer and ebola."

Jacob: "I know how you feel man. I had gout in March of 2016."

FYI pretty much everyone on earth has a sob story that puts yours to shame.

In case you weren't aware, Viking raiders savaged the British Isles for centuries. It was basically impossible for a king with an army of 30,000 to stop raiding parties of 200 men 1,000 years ago. They'd show up, kill a bunch of people, stay overnight drinking, take what they wanted (including slaves), and they could be 80 miles away across the water before men could even be sent to where they were. There was no radar. No phones to let people know you needed the army. 

The importance of sea power was hammered into the conscious of the British over the course of centuries. Yes, the nasty British suffered too. It was actually the original Lord of the Isles who turned that tide, but that's a different story.

Quote

Yeah well, we live in a world where you're either with us or against us now 

No, we live in a world where people can latch onto whatever "truth" they want to make themselves feel better. There's a whole "News" Network dedicated to fake programming. 

"Trump colluded!!!!!!!" Nope. Even CNN knew that was a lie over a year ago.

"Kavanaugh tried to rape Dr Ford when they were in high school!!!!!! Dr Ford's story has to be believed!!!!!!" Nope. She can't name a month, a year, a location, none of her friends or family have ever heard of story, she lives her life completely contrary to the phobias that she claims to have as a result of the incident, she has never filed a police report, Kavanaugh has 100s of people who are willing to 100% vouch for his character including several women who worked for him.

"It's no big deal that Joe Biden's kid did $1.5 Billion in business with the communist bank of China and that he also got a $30K per month job at Burisma! Joe didn't even know! Ok, he lied about that, but he still doesn't need to be investigated because the Dems already vetted him!!!!"

"Walls are racist!!!'

"People were forced to drink out of toilets!"

"Trump invented the idea of separating kids from the people who brought them over the border!!!!!! OK Obama did it too but he did it non-racistly!!!!!!! OK, Obama's administration let some kids go back with the human traffickers that had them but how is that relevant!"

"Nicholas Sandman taunted that old native guy!!!!! What a little white supremacist!!!"

"It's too early to say that Omar Mateen was a terrorist!! He was more likely responding to Trump's dog-whistling about gays! This is a gun laws issue! If AK-47s were illegal this never would have happened!"

 

Honestly every single one of those stories was just blatant bullshit from the start and half the population of the US and most of the population of Canada was sucked in by all of them. They defended those moronic positions well after it was time to give up the ghost. People are so god-damned stupid that after the first 11 lies they believe the 12th story like it's gospel, even when it smelt a bit fishy from the get-go.

There's no "with us or against us" there's "I'm programmed and I will never respond to facts that are contrary to the narrative that I've been spoon-fed".

Honestly look at that entire list of stories that used to seem like they were true. How many of them can you no longer defend with the sad filter of hindsight? Why the fuck would you just glom onto the next bullshit story from those clowns? After all this time, shouldn't you have at least one "Gotcha WestCanMan" story to crow about by now? ("Well he let Americans come home so you can't say 'travel ban' " is just an example of stupidity, it's not a gotcha FYI). I didn't even fill my whole list yet. There's LOTS more.  

 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

When are you leaving?

Why would I?  You gonna finally provide an example of systemic racism in Canada?  Or are you finally going to admit that it’s bullshit.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

When are you leaving?

Why would I?  You gonna finally provide an example of systemic racism in Canada?  Or are you finally going to admit that it’s bullshit.

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2 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

What you will find in the reality of the progressive movement, is identity politics. The balkanizing of society into perverted groups moving with twisted attempts at imagined equity, tribalistically chanting beliefs in their superior virtue, calling for a unified government management they believe must recognize their scattered priorities. They are prepared to dismantle what is out of some vague internalized belief in some vague external promise of Utopia on the other end with a benign all powerful government watching over them.

I sometimes think of those calling themselves progressives as progressive socialists - even if they don't know it themselves. Other times I think of them as a virus currently infecting western society. 

Nailed it.

I worked with a Jamaican guy for about 8 years. Knew him pretty well. He talked about racism once in a blue moon. I don't think he was really affected by it. His wife was white and they had been together for a long time. I knew him from about '95 to 2003. 

Anyhow, one day he started to talking to me about gays in Jamaica. "We don't have gays in Jamaica because if we find out anyone's gay we just beat the fuck out of them." He thought it was funny. 

I said "Why is being gay any different than being black or white"?

He seemed like he was about to get really mad for a second and he said "WTF do you mean b that?"

I said something like: People are born to be gay, or born to white/black and there's nothing you can do about it. It's just luck. About 5% of the population is gay. Why is it any different to beat them up for being gay than it is to beat up a black person? 

Two takeaways: 1) I was kind of offended that he'd think I was down with gay bashing, 2) I thought it was ironic that he could so strongly identify with how bad racism was to him and yet he'd think it was ok to be bigoted against gays. 

Made me think about "First they came for the __________s and I wasn't a _______ so I didn't say anything....."

I worked in the trades with quite a few gay people, one of them said to me "I hate rich people". I could tell he thought that it would be a popular topic, I didn't think it made much sense, so I asked him why he hated all rich people.

He said: "What have they ever done for me?"

I asked what he had ever done for them. He had nothing.

Why is it any different to hate all rich people than it is to hate all gay people? 

Now the LGBTQ community is banning police from the gay parade in VCR again, and allowing BLM.

Makes me wonder, when gay people were being beaten up for no good reason, did they call on black terrorists or did they call the police? I bet they called the police. 

Sorry gay people, you've lost my support entirely. If there's a petition to cancel the gay parade I'll sign it. I don't appreciate your discrimination against police. 

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On 6/12/2020 at 9:54 AM, Boges said:

Could say the same to the MAGA crowd no? 

Everyone wants what they think is best.

If I could get into the heads of the MAGA crowd I would say they're frustrated at the way the country has been going, particularly with regard to the economic livelihood of a lot of middle American blue collar workers. But I would suggest they're even more frustrated at what they see as their way of life and values being battered by a left wing which sees value only in the cultures and beliefs of those that aren't theirs, which, in fact, disdains, sneers at and shows contempt for theirs. The way the Left believes all must be subordinate to helping minorities of every kind achieve whatever status and life goals they wish at the expense of mainstream whites. In fact, the belief that this is not only right and moral, but that white people deserve to be punished for the transgressions of their forefathers and have no right to object.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Everyone wants what they think is best.

If I could get into the heads of the MAGA crowd I would say they're frustrated at the way the country has been going, particularly with regard to the economic livelihood of a lot of middle American blue collar workers. But I would suggest they're even more frustrated at what they see as their way of life and values being battered by a left wing which sees value only in the cultures and beliefs of those that aren't theirs, which, in fact, disdains, sneers at and shows contempt for theirs. The way the Left believes all must be subordinate to helping minorities of every kind achieve whatever status and life goals they wish at the expense of mainstream whites. In fact, the belief that this is not only right and moral, but that white people deserve to be punished for the transgressions of their forefathers and have no right to object.

"Middle America" can see Left Elites as their enemy. They created the Globalism that stopped them from making a living wage doing jobs a 12-year-old could do. And they're lauded by Trump and his ilk as victims. Trump's success is conning those people into thinking he gives two shits about them. 

But when minorities (specifically African Americans and FN) point out how they've been victimized throughout generations and how it's created generational problems that'd deeply ingrained in how they live, they'd told to STFU.

And don't bother post something that says it is all statistically fake, cuz I can post something that says it's real and then we have to enter into a Fake News argument. It just becomes an exhaustive effort that doesn't convince anyone anything. 

Dave Chapelle points out that this is the street speaking. And this is their last attempt to change things before there is violence, from both sides. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/arts/television/dave-chappelle-netflix-special.html 

Similar sentiments seen in the Civil Rights protests seen in the late 60's. And it's working, Police reform is coming and they're under a huge spotlight now. 

Edited by Boges

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9 minutes ago, Boges said:

"Middle America" can see Left Elites as their enemy. They created the Globalism that stopped them from making a living wage doing jobs a 12-year-old could do. And they're lauded by Trump and his ilk as victims. Trump's success is conning those people into thinking he gives two shits about them. 

But when minorities (specifically African Americans and FN) point out how they've been victimized throughout generations and how it's created generational problems that'd deeply ingrained in how they live, they'd told to STFU.

I don't hear any such complaints. All I hear are complaints about existing racism. I don't see demands for help or money in adjusting their values and culture and how they live. I see demands for preferential hiring. I don't see calls for more discipline in schools, just more money to the teacher's unions. I don't see demands for more programs to combat teen sex and pregnancy but demands for reparations for slavery.

If the black community is complaining about generational problems in how they live it's not making it to the mainstream.

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On 6/12/2020 at 9:45 AM, WestCanMan said:

I didn't even fill my whole list yet. There's LOTS more.

In addition to the miles of string and tons of post-it notes you've already invested in this forum?

  • Haha 1

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On 6/12/2020 at 10:06 AM, Shady said:

Why would I?  You gonna finally provide an example of systemic racism in Canada?  Or are you finally going to admit that it’s bullshit.

You mean you STILL haven't looked at the videos I posted?  You still can't take 10 minutes out of your life to try and understand what systemic racism is?

Piss off then.

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