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Rayshard Brooks Killed By Police In Atlanta. Free TVs For Everyone..


WestCanMan

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2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The cops didn't shoot him while he was running. They shot him while he was tazing. That's a fact, clearly recorded on video that we've all seen.

Rayshard was potentially about to jolt a cop in the face with a 50,000-volt taser. The taser had enough range to get him there. That's why Rayshard is dead.

The shooting had nothing to do with whether or not they would have eventually caught him. You're out on a limb known as 'lying'. 

He was running and tazing, which would greatly reduce his ability to hit him in the face. 

I'm contending that the only reason Rayshard could have tazed the cop was because he was in hot pursuit, something that only escalated the situation further. Again, what was he going to do? Be a fugitive from the law, on foot, with a Tazer? 

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OK so I'm reading your articles Boges and I'm struck immediately by what I perceive as problems. I think I see what you're calling "redefining police" though.

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Redefining police means cities must take a whole new look at the way policing is done and how department budgets are determined; it means ensuring that resources go to professional training, community policing, cultural competency training and complete transparency of police officers’ past conduct and records. 

As broad vague labels those might impress but you get into problems when you get into the nitty gritty of specifics.

For starters some of that is done. Take "community policing" for example. Isn't that what the officers who were on the beat doing when they came across Eric Garner who was selling single cigarettes? Perhaps they had a certain amount of "cultural competency." Enough to know selling singles should have been an excusable misdemeanor of the culture of the mean streets of New York but the Socialists running New York at the time wanted their tobacco tax money. The officers had orders to step on anybody trying to avoid their taxes. Next thing you know poor obese Eric Garner is in a choke hold dying on the street. 

I'm not saying community policing or training for cultural competency is necessarily a bad thing. I'm saying presenting such in vague terms as a cure-all and suggesting it doesn't already exist in any form is probably a mistake.

Another problem I have with your article is this one:

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Black Lives Matter’s website, under “Defund the Police,” calls for “an end to the systemic racism that allows this culture of corruption to go unchecked and our lives to be taken.” There is no question that this needs to be the goal.

As you may have noted myself and others consider the term "systemic racism" to be total BS.

Then there's this one:

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It also means that the policies guiding the departments put a stop to police brutality and abuse, hold police officers accountable for their conduct and ensure that they protect and serve all communities equally.

That most likely is already happening but as, I believe Argus has already pointed out to you, police slackness like what happened in Baltimore in the aftermath of the Freddie Gray incident highlights the problem of getting too gung ho on that one. The big problem there was incompetent officials and race-baiting media causing a major problem before all the facts were in.

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It also means that the policies guiding the departments put a stop to police brutality and abuse

I would hope that cities are already doing that. I hear the roadblock there comes from police unions. No unions in policing then? You might be able to talk me into that one.

Now on this one:

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hold police officers accountable for their conduct and ensure that they protect and serve all communities equally.

I'd like some specifics. My BS detector is starting to go off again though. Define "equally."

Edited by Infidel Dog
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I've posted more broadly about it in the proper thread as to avoid thread drift. :P

I will say that the idea that higher scrutiny means that cops won't do their jobs is part of the problem. Only Unionized workers seem to have this attitude. 

In the cases that have garnered national attention it's almost always a black person NOT being violent and the police interaction ends up leading to violence. 

I don't hear anyone saying that violent people shouldn't be dealt with. 

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6 minutes ago, Boges said:

In the cases that have garnered national attention it's almost always a black person NOT being violent and the police interaction ends up leading to violence. 

 

That assumes that almost identical incidents don't happen to non-black individuals that aren't given the same attention.

I encourage you to look up the cases of Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver and Justine Diamond for starters.

i suggest the problem is more race baiting by special interests (including but not limited to media) than unequal treatment of any particular race.

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1 minute ago, Infidel Dog said:

That assumes that almost identical incidents don't happen to non-black individuals that aren't given the same attention.

I encourage you to look up the cases of Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver and Justine Diamond for starters.

i suggest the problem is more race baiting by special interests (including but not limited to media) than unequal treatment of any particular race.

I'll draw your attention to the White Person who was assaulted in Buffalo. 

The problem with All Lives Matter is that it's just an excuse to minimize the concern. 

"Your protest is invalid because White people are killed by the cops too" 

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Not just white people but more white people are killed by cops. (And I would hope you would already know the counter if you want to talk about the unequal proportion of the 13% black demographic.)

There is no systemic racism.

And if there were we'd have to blame the systems in charge of policing in the areas where the proposed incidents of "systemic racism" causing black deaths by police occur. As you know by now those are pretty much all run by Progressives. 

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7 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Not just white people but more white people are killed by cops. (And I would hope you would already know the counter if you want to talk about the unequal proportion of the 13% black demographic.)

There is no systemic racism.

And if there were we'd have to blame the systems in charge of policing in the areas where the proposed incidents of "systemic racism" causing black deaths by police occur. As you know by now those are pretty much all run by Progressives. 

Says you. And guess what? You're not the type of person that's driving public opinion right now. 

If you're going to blame progressives for crime in inner cities, I would hope you would also blame conservatives for the level of poverty, drug abuse and suicides in poor rural areas. 

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36 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

That assumes that almost identical incidents don't happen to non-black individuals that aren't given the same attention.

I encourage you to look up the cases of Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver and Justine Diamond for starters.

i suggest the problem is more race baiting by special interests (including but not limited to media) than unequal treatment of any particular race.

I also would disagree that instances of unarmed white people being killed isn't a problem. The police killing unarmed people is a problem. 

But as a white person, I will say my interactions with police have been to the minimum. It seems black people don't experience the same thing. 

But then we have to debate Broken Window Policies and Mass incarceration as root causes to inner city crime and poverty. 

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1 hour ago, Boges said:

He was running and tazing, which would greatly reduce his ability to hit him in the face. 

I'm contending that the only reason Rayshard could have tazed the cop was because he was in hot pursuit, something that only escalated the situation further. Again, what was he going to do? Be a fugitive from the law, on foot, with a Tazer? 

He was running, which would greatly reduce his ability to avoid hitting him in the face. The police are also wearing vests, so he's probably going to aim at the head if he's going to bother to shoot at him at all.

FYI Tasers aren't pea-shooters:  https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/stun-gun-laws-georgia.htm

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The State of Georgia doesn’t regulate stun guns or Tasers, and most people may carry one of these weapons almost everywhere. But felons aren’t allowed to have Tasers, and anyone could be charged with a crime for using either a stun gun or Taser as an offensive weapon. Read on to learn more.

When Rayshard attacked police officers he instantly became a felon, so he was carrying that taser in violation of the law, also he was in possession of a policeman's stolen sidearm, another felony. Pointing the taser during the commission of a crime was also a felony. Firing it while under the influence of alcohol was a felony.

Rayshard was on a roll. 

I don't know if he had a record from before, but he committed a lot of felonies, all caught on video, in a short period of time. 

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Various laws in Georgia also address the illegal use of weapons. For instance, if you have a gun (including a stun gun or Taser) or a knife (with a blade that’s at least three inches long) while committing or trying to commit certain crimes, you can be charged with a separate felony in addition to the underlying crime. The punishment is stiffer if you were previously convicted of certain other crimes, including any felony involving the use or possession of a gun.

It’s a misdemeanor in Georgia to:

  • point a loaded or unloaded gun at someone intentionally and without a legal justification
  • fire a gun on someone else’s property (without permission) or within 50 yards of a public road or highway
  • fire a gun while under the influence of alcohol or certain drugs

I'm not saying that he deserved to die because that's obviously not the case, but I'm pointing this out to you to show you how seriously the State of Georgia takes tasers. Some States in the US don't even allow people to carry tasers. Our whole country doesn't allow citizens to even own tasers much less carry them around. 

It's really sad that Rayshard died, it's horrible, but he forced police to make a hasty decision regarding a weapon that was pointed at them. I don't suggest that anyone rolls that dice, with any police, anywhere, at any time, regardless of their training. 

The police had to chase him to get their taser back, and he never should have turned to fire anything at a police officer. Even a pellet gun. Those guys aren't playing cops and robbers. They're actual cops, and their lives are threatened all the time. Especially now. 

Are you honestly the kind of person who would push your luck like Rayshard did? Do you think you would survive that in Canada? Sweden? Czech Republic? Croatia? Russia? Iran? Congo? Australia? China? Japan? SoKo? 

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4 hours ago, Boges said:

Even if they did. What would they do? If someone wants to stop theft they'd have to invest in a security system. 

Investing in a security system is rather pointless if no one calls when it goes off, don't you think?

4 hours ago, Boges said:

Do you contend that I'm saying to abolish police? I'm saying there are many things cops currently do that they don't need to be doing.

Okay, but your initial post said that they should only be focusing on violent crimes. Did it not?

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4 hours ago, Boges said:

You would have to analyze why crime happens first. 

It's not just evil people being evil. A lot of it can be linked to societal problems that can be fixed by other things than cops banging heads. 

Well, Thomas Sowell believes that crime comes from culture, not poverty. With respect to American blacks he says their culture is poisoned by so many fatherless children, particularly fatherless boys being raised by teen mothers, which leads to both poverty for both, and often a lack of discipline. There's very little discipline in schools either, at least not in New York, where he lives, and few male teachers. Those schools are rough, to tough places, as are the streets outside. Gangs proliferate, fighting is ubiquitous, and respect for law and order non-existent. The strong prey on the weak (most black crime is committed against black people). Gangsta rap is the favorite, and snitches get stitches.

And incidentally, what happens when a boy raised in that environment runs into a cop? He's used to pushing back against any guy who tries to push him around, and turns belligerent, sullen and angry, especially since he's told the cops are all racists.

So what would you do about all that?

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The best and most illustrative edited and editorialized video of the Rayshard Brooks incident in my opinion is the one below from AIU starting about 24:50. It's the side you won't get from BLM supporters like the progressive media. But if you want to say you've heard both sides you should hear it:

 

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

Well, Thomas Sowell....Gangs proliferate, fighting is ubiquitous, and respect for law and order non-existent. The strong prey on the weak (most black crime is committed against black people). Gangsta rap is the favorite, and snitches get stitches.

And incidentally, what happens when a boy raised in that environment runs into a cop? He's used to pushing back against any guy who tries to push him around, and turns belligerent, sullen and angry, especially since he's told the cops are all racists.

So what would you do about all that?

 

This is a common trope that ignores the complete narrative and experience for police officers, regardless of race.    Most white crimes are committed against white people too, not all young black men raised in such conditions "push back" against police officers, or must be doomed to lifetime "sullen and angry" outlooks.   Some do...most don't.   U.S. prisons are filled with people of many different backgrounds.

I am likely the only one on this forum who has been subjected to several stops and detentions by police officers in the U.S. as a young black male.   I specifically remember a mistaken identity felony stop in North Las Vegas, Nevada in the 1970's.   I was the passenger in my mom's  pimped out Cadillac Eldorado driven by my younger sister one night when the po-po lit our asses up and blocked the car.   The cops thought I was the perp who committed armed robbery against a local bar and grill just days before.

Now some people are just stupid (regardless of race), others have outstanding warrants and don't want to go back to jail/prison.   We were neither, and promptly displayed our hands in plain sight to demonstrate we were not a weapons/assault threat to the cops.   Their guns out, we exited the vehicle as instructed by squad car PA system, got patted down, produced ID's as requested, and were detained while the cops ran the usual checks through dispatch by radio (no fancy computers back then).   Our drivers' licenses checked out, as did my military ID.....sorry...."we made a mistake"....no harm...no foul...and we were on our way with a great story for the future. 

There was no social media to post photos/video to advertise our victimhood, nor is there a lifelong hatred of cops.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

The best and most illustrative edited and editorialized video of the Rayshard Brooks incident in my opinion is the one below from AIU starting about 24:50. It's the side you won't get from BLM supporters like the progressive media. But if you want to say you've heard both sides you should hear it:

It's time to stop using the word progressive and replace it with radical. 

Theres nothing "progressive" about CNN, Antifa, BLM, AOC & the Squawks, Schiff, Biden, Pelosi, M Waters, CTV, CBC, Global, etc. They're just radicals now.

I didn't see CBC or Global's bullshit take on this, but they literally described that shooting as "Police shot him in the back while he was running away." That's not News, that's bullshit. At the time they said it, the videos were out and the facts were known. 

CTV wasn't fair and impartial, they weren't just biased, they weren't just leftist, they weren't progressive, they were actually inciting radicals to loot, riot, commit arson and kill more cops. Maybe they're just total fucking idiots who shouldn't be allowed to stand in front of a camera and lead people astray, but I think it's impossible for anyone to be that stupid. 

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On 6/13/2020 at 9:47 PM, WestCanMan said:

Too bad so sad Rayshard. You were an idiot, and now instead of paying for a DUI ticket you're pushing up daisies. 

CTV just said "He was running from the police and got shot in the back. CTV is pure filth. 

But that is what happened isn't it, in addition to all the other stuff they reported?

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

But that is what happened isn't it, in addition to all the other stuff they reported?

Nope. There's a video. He was shot when he turned to fire a Taser at the police. 

Is running away the same as shooting a taser at police? Is it even close?

Let's test it out. I'll run from some cops, you turn and shoot a taser at them.

There are sites that say that Rayshard Brooks served prison time for crimes against his own children. I don't know if it's true or not, but if I was like CNN I'd run with it and when it was proven to be a lie I'd change the topic. 

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is a common trope that ignores the complete narrative and experience for police officers, regardless of race.    Most white crimes are committed against white people too, not all young black men raised in such conditions "push back" against police officers, or must be doomed to lifetime "sullen and angry" outlooks.   Some do...most don't.   U.S. prisons are filled with people of many different backgrounds.

There is no unanimity in any group or narrative. There are always exceptions. But using the existence of exceptions to try to disprove the reality of the general truth of a statement is intellectually dishonest. Many inner city black youth do not have any male role model other than gangsta rappers, and do not have experience being disciplined by men. Add in the presumption now that police are all racist and the likelihood a young black man will be belligerent, surly, uncooperative, and possibly violent when confronted by police is radically increased. Not saying it always happens. Saying it's more likely to than for whites or Asians or Hispanics.

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Now some people are just stupid (regardless of race), others have outstanding warrants and don't want to go back to jail/prison.   We were neither, and promptly displayed our hands in plain sight to demonstrate we were not a weapons/assault threat to the cops.

This is, ironically, Chris Rock's advice on "How not to get your ass kicked by the police". Btw, people who make such suggestions now are called racist. Also people who bring up the fact that in almost every one of these cases the individual involved is not only breaking the law but has a history , often a long history of lawbreaking. The media never mentions this, for some reason. I guess Criminal Lives Matter doesn't sound as good as Black Lives Matter.

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Argus
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14 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope. There's a video. He was shot when he turned to fire a Taser at the police. 

Is running away the same as shooting a taser at police? Is it even close?

Let's test it out. I'll run from some cops, you turn and shoot a taser at them.

There are sites that say that Rayshard Brooks served prison time for crimes against his own children. I don't know if it's true or not, but if I was like CNN I'd run with it and when it was proven to be a lie I'd change the topic. 

Just like with George Floyd, his previous crimes do not justify him being killed here. 

The litmus test on this being murder or an unjustified police killing is the idea that he posed in threat to the cops. The only reason he could even have tazed a cop was because they were in hot pursuit. It's not like he was in a car, he wasn't a threat to anyone at that point. 

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Just now, Boges said:

Just like with George Floyd, his previous crimes do not justify him being killed here. 

The litmus test on this being murder or an unjustified police killing is the idea that he posed in threat to the cops. The only reason he could even have tazed a cop was because they were in hot pursuit. It's not like he was in a car, he wasn't a threat to anyone at that point. 

Are you really suggesting police not pursue felons because that might cause the felon to take violent action against them which might in turn get the felons hurt?

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6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Are you really suggesting police not pursue felons because that might cause the felon to take violent action against them which might in turn get the felons hurt?

Well if the alternative is getting close enough that the risk of being tazed (in the eye as you put it) means the felon has to be killed, then perhaps they should have re-evaluated the situation. 

It likely cost both dudes their job and likely more. 

Brooks could have done many things differently to avoid his fate, but so could have the cops. Especially considering the environment revolving police right now. Killing a man that's running away from you has to be one of the more tone deaf things that could have been done. 

Edited by Boges
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2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well if the alternative is getting close enough that the risk of being tazed (in the eye as you put it) means the felon has to be killed, then perhaps they should have re-evaluated the situation. 

We don't train police that way.

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

It likely cost both dudes their job and likely more. 

What did the second guy do to lose his job?

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Brooks could have done many things differently to avoid his fate,

Like not being a lifelong criminal?

I shed no tears for the loss of this scumbag. Why are you so torn up about it?

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4 hours ago, Argus said:

Investing in a security system is rather pointless if no one calls when it goes off, don't you think?

There's private security. But at least you'd know a crime is taking place in the moment. How many people have security systems? 

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Okay, but your initial post said that they should only be focusing on violent crimes. Did it not?

I would suggest breaking and entering is a violent crime. But again, trying to tackle problems that lead to theft and vandalism may be a better tactic than simply stopping then as they happen. 

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3 minutes ago, Argus said:

We don't train police that way.

They're trained to shoot to kill when someone runs away from them with a non-lethal weapon? 

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What did the second guy do to lose his job?

Well he's on administrative leave right now, so he did something wrong. We'll see I guess. I'm hearing the fired cop should see charges by Wednesday. 

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I shed no tears for the loss of this scumbag. Why are you so torn up about it?

I'm sure you don't.

I'm not torn up about it, I just I hate how they took every step to escalate the situation. 

 This isn't as awful as the other black killings recently but I still think there are a myriad of ways this could have ended differently.

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