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I have no idea why you would respond to eyeball on this thread. I've never claimed policing is the most dangerous job around and, in fact, have stated that in previous years when I complain about how

Try to rise above what? Above reality? Above the truth, as evidenced in statistics? Above emotional twaddle based on history? Am I to feel guilt and shame over the historical plight of Black people in

We have already been over your tendency to want to make all things equal, when the issue is uncomfortable for the left. Both sides have always used twaddle, but not to the extent that we see today whe

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This is a response to eyeball's ( @eyeball ) oft-repeated mantra that figures lie and liars figure.  I think that you are, in the end, right.  But if people can come to the table admitting the shortcomings of their tools as a starting point then maybe the tools can be used to build a common ground.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

The wail of a partisan who decries the way information is framed as a narrative or 'story' by a journalist could be stated as "Why does 'the media' continue the narrative of Blue Lives being dangerous ?  Why does Hollywood perpetuate this myth ?"  

The answer is that surely if 'black lives matter' is based on misleading stats then Blue Lives matter are also a problem.  What is happening is that the simplified tool of the 'story' no longer serves us when we are beyond simple social mechanics.

 

Here are the actual stats on dangerous jobs in the US from the Bureau of Labour Statistics (which I present because it's geographically close to Hollywood, which has failed to produce a movie about a lawn care guy getting killed on the last day before retirement) 

 

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 1. Logging workers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 97.6
Total fatal injuries: 74

2. Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 77.4
Total fatal injuries: 30

3. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 58.9
Total fatal injuries: 70

4. Roofers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 51.5
Total fatal injuries: 96

5. Refuse and recyclable materials collectors
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 44.3
Total fatal injuries: 37

6. Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 26
Total fatal injuries: 966

7. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural workers
Fatal injuries per full-time equivalent 100,000 workers: 24.7
Total fatal injuries: 257

8. Structural Iron and Steel workers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 23.6
Total injuries: 15

9. First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 21
Total fatal injuries: 144

10. First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers
Fatal injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers: 20.2
Total fatal injuries: 142
 

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8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is a response to eyeball's ( @eyeball ) oft-repeated mantra that figures lie and liars figure.  I think that you are, in the end, right.  But if people can come to the table admitting the shortcomings of their tools as a starting point then maybe the tools can be used to build a common ground.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html
 

I have no idea why you would respond to eyeball on this thread. I've never claimed policing is the most dangerous job around and, in fact, have stated that in previous years when I complain about how much police in Canada are paid (too much!).

However, I would point out there is a difference in how we treat a death by accident, as per your lawn care guy, and a deliberate murder. Or else why are all the progressives losing their mind over Floyd? There is also a difference between hurting yourself by having a boom hit your head, and getting hurt because someone stabbed or beat you. There's a  hell of a lot higher emotional toll on a person, too. The female police officer who fended off the guy trying to shoot her in the head, for example, until another cop showed up and killed him won't show up on your statistics of dangerous jobs, but I bet she's gonna be suffering a lot more PTSD than someone who almost got run over by a lawn mower.

This topic was in response to the BLM garbage, and started with police shootings, but has branched into just a series of interesting videos of the violence and other shit police routinely encounter, even where it doesn't lead to death or even a shooting.

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No damage done to the cop here, so I'm sure it won't show in your statistics.

 

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16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Why is BLM tugging at peoples' heartstrings 'garbage' and others' not ?


Try to rise above.

Try to rise above what? Above reality? Above the truth, as evidenced in statistics? Above emotional twaddle based on history? Am I to feel guilt and shame over the historical plight of Black people in another country? How about the historical plight of Black people in this country who are almost all immigrants or their kids arriving in the last 40 years?

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You seem to miss the point.  Both sides use emotional twaddle.

Yes, police are assaulted more than other professions but picking a different stat to focus on is what I already did - to show why stats themselves aren't enough to describe the problem.

So what is the problem?

I mean, from my perspective, as a Canadian, the problem is that police aren't trained well enough, sometimes lack discipline, and are paid so much money we don't have funds to have enough of them. As I've pointed out before, our rate of police per population is a lot lower than most of our allies.

So suppose you tell me what the problem is with Black people.

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You seem to miss the point.  Both sides use emotional twaddle.

Yes, police are assaulted more than other professions but picking a different stat to focus on is what I already did - to show why stats themselves aren't enough to describe the problem.

We have already been over your tendency to want to make all things equal, when the issue is uncomfortable for the left. Both sides have always used twaddle, but not to the extent that we see today where it causes mass unrest, protests with vandalism and political leaders actually fan the flames of rioting burning and looting in the streets. Let's cut the crap for once, or are you not capable of coming down from that leftist holy mountain.

We the ordinary folk of this country have put up with enough of the left's constant mad drive toward equivalence in all things everywhere, no matter how false or misguided. Until it even takes away things that are good and virtuous, for the sake of an idea. We the common wheal who have no voice are sick and appalled by this goofy political side show. I mean, no more cops? Are you frikkin kidding me?

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3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

We the common wheal who have no voice are sick and appalled by this goofy political side show. I mean, no more cops? Are you frikkin kidding me?

Perhaps if you, the common wheal, considered facts instead of indulging in anti-liberal hysteria, you'd not be so sick and appalled.  There will still be cops, but some services previously given to cops will be given to more appropriate services.  Wellness checks come to mind: checking on someone's wellbeing doesn't require guns or trigger happy cops. 

These two quotes say it pretty well:

"by reducing the size and scope of what SPD does while also making a down payment on investments in BIPOC community health and safety models,” Councilmember Tammy Morales wrote on social media.

what we’re doing in the rebalancing for 2020’s budgets plants the seeds and provides a blueprint for massive divestment from our militarized police force to re-invest in community-based public safety solutions"

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/durkan-best-on-city-council-budget-cuts-to-spd/281-b9fbbf34-b870-4dee-8ba1-597dd69cd2ca

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On 8/6/2020 at 4:38 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Why is BLM tugging at peoples' heartstrings 'garbage' and others' not ?

Before I begin, let me ask a question. Do Canadians here feel comfortable talking about people in terms of "black" and "white"? Because I generally don't. I don't see it necessary to describe people along those lines, and I generally don't need to in my normal daily dialog. I think this is in stark contrast with the overtly racial dialog in the United States.

 

BLM has forced the issue into a Black/ White conflict. Not a problem that is endemic, but is directly personal- Whites are to blame. And they are to blame for all their shortcomings, the high crime rate, gang culture, drug culture, broken homes. BLM does not agree that responsibility for solving any of these problems lies within the black community.

Their carte-blanche hatred and dismissal of police is absurd. Violence is too deeply manifested in our society to imagine it could work. Much greater changes are needed before you can safely defund the police.

Most people who are intelligent enough can see that there are many blacks who have done extremely well, and indeed are admired and even loved by our society. Great sports athletes come to mind. Also great actors, comedians and dramatic. There was even a black president.

 

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8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps if you, the common wheal, considered facts instead of indulging in anti-liberal hysteria, you'd not be so sick and appalled.  There will still be cops, but some services previously given to cops will be given to more appropriate services.  Wellness checks come to mind: checking on someone's wellbeing doesn't require guns or trigger happy cops.

Yeah, you go ahead and do all that lady. Yo go find the money for it too. I hear about the need for more social and mental health services, and the need for better training. But until the level of violence goes down, don't you take away one cop. We need more money in that, not less.

BLM is a political tool that drives a wedge between people. Does no good whatsoever. Another absolutely stupid leftist wrong idea.

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13 hours ago, dialamah said:

instead of indulging in anti-liberal hysteria,

50 years of predominantly liberal governments, including majorities, have brought us here. If our policies or laws are systematically racist, we can pretty much say these are liberal laws. Liberal policies toward natives have resulted in the inherent disempowerment we see in them today. Yes, the system is racist. Canada's "Indian Act"  and should be replaced.

Ain't it funny how Mr. Trudeau hasn't offered a great idea to say, we are going to really change our ways and reach out to natives, and end the poverty and the hardship they endure?
Some of which certainly is the fault of Canada's legacy of their treatment. Regardless of past attempts to solve the problem, it still remains and I believe even the UN castigated Canada for its treatment of natives. Right up to today, this moment. Funny how Mr. Trudeau doesn't want to jump on that. I know I would...

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

50 years of predominantly liberal governments, including majorities, have brought us here.

Conservatives have held power for 21 of those years, plenty of time to address the "wrongs" of the Liberals and persuade Canadians they were the party who could deliver what Canadians want.  They failed at both.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Ain't it funny how Mr. Trudeau hasn't offered a great idea to say, we are going to really change our ways and reach out to natives, and end the poverty and the hardship they endure?

I agree; Trudeau has failed miserably here.   Here's an entire list of his failings.

Quote

Some of which certainly is the fault of Canada's legacy of their treatment.

You may be the exception to the rule, but generally it's Conservatives who blame natives for the situation they're in, and insist that we, as a society owe them nothing, that what happened in the past is over and the people affected need to get over it and just move on.  

It seems pretty clear to me that Canadians overall want what Liberals claim they stand for; the Conservative platform is slightly less appealing.   It's also clear to me, if not you, that neither party really delivers what most Canadians want.

15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah, you go ahead and do all that lady. Yo go find the money for it too.

I have an idea - defund police to contribute towards more humane and less violent interventions!  Oh, wait - they already thought of that!

15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

But until the level of violence goes down, don't you take away one cop. We need more money in that, not less.

Maybe it will end up in disaster, but then again - maybe it won't.  Conservatives screamed about how a $15 minimum wage would destroy businesses, but at least in Seattle, the results have not been catastrophic - as a matter of fact, economists can't really decide if it's effects have been more positive or more negative

If having fewer police officers, but more social workers and more social supports is a success or a failure will be known in time.  But the status quo clearly isn't working, because innocent people are being killed by overzealous police.  Here's a clip of a white guy, clearly surrendering, but shot anyway after a neighbor put in a (false) report of domestic abuse.  If the current protests result in fewer innocent people of any race getting killed by the people that are sworn to protect us, that's a positive imo.

 

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9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Maybe it will end up in disaster, but then again - maybe it won't.

That sounds like a gamble not even worth considering. No brainer. Ok for training and reforms, and a long term goal to use more mental health services.

Not ok with the blame and the reactionary way this is being implemented. That is the difference.

Other stuff- whaboutisms, etc. I haven't heard conservative leaders say they don't care to help natives. The question is more fundamental than yes or no. What is real help, long term self-sustaining help, that is what conservatives ask.

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32 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not ok with the blame and the reactionary way this is being implemented. That is the difference.

I agree that reactionary responses are less likely to lead to success.  The plan that Seattle has put together is the start of a long-term plan.  But its being presented by too many conservatives as "getting rid of the police, there'll be mayhem.  Blame liberals!".  A purely reactionary and hysterical response, imo.

39 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The question is more fundamental than yes or no.

Yes, it is more nuanced than that.

40 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What is real help, long term self-sustaining help, that is what conservatives ask.

I expect if you asked Canadians, including natives, they'd agree that throwing money at the problem isn't helpful; a plan that results in long-term, self-sustaining help is the goal.  

So far, neither party has delivered, despite ample opportunity to do so.  Yet, you want to blame Liberals exclusively.  Why is that?

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3 hours ago, dialamah said:

you want to blame Liberals exclusively.  Why is that?

- They show themselves as if above reproach, which is a blatant lie.

- They are the ones in power now.

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19 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Both sides have always used twaddle, but not to the extent that we see today where it causes mass unrest, protests with vandalism and political leaders actually fan the flames of rioting burning and looting in the streets.
Let's cut the crap for once, or are you not capable of coming down from that leftist holy mountain.

2. We the ordinary folk of this country have put up with enough of the left's constant mad drive toward equivalence in all things everywhere, no matter how false or misguided. Until it even takes away things that are good and virtuous, for the sake of an idea.

3. We the common wheal who have no voice are sick and appalled by this goofy political side show. I mean, no more cops? Are you frikkin kidding me?

1. I think that your claims are a little extreme, but I admit not knowing the extend of the 'unrest'.  And I wouldn't say that the Democrats or whatever use it to a different extent than anyone else.
2. You're a Culture Warrior, by your language.  I am not.  I reject the culture wars as being ridiculous and beside the point.
3. 'No cops' is indeed a goofy idea.

 

 

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19 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

1.  Do Canadians here feel comfortable talking about people in terms of "black" and "white"? Because I generally don't. I don't see it necessary to describe people along those lines, and I generally don't need to in my normal daily dialog. I think this is in stark contrast with the overtly racial dialog in the United States.

 

2.  Not a problem that is endemic, but is directly personal- Whites are to blame. And they are to blame for all their shortcomings, the high crime rate, gang culture, drug culture, broken homes. BLM does not agree that responsibility for solving any of these problems lies within the black community.

3. Their carte-blanche hatred and dismissal of police is absurd.  

4. Most people who are intelligent enough can see that there are many blacks who have done extremely well, and indeed are admired and even loved by our society. Great sports athletes come to mind. Also great actors, comedians and dramatic. There was even a black president.

 

1. I don't feel uncomfortable with it and I doubt people on here feel uncomfortable.
2. I think 'blaming' a culture is unproductive.  I don't agree with BLM doing it, but I also doubt that they do since they rely on Whites to give them money.  They're against 'white supremecy' but that's not blaming whites.  https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
3. I would need a cite for "carte-blanche hatred".  It is a very extreme claim.
4. I don't think that adds up to much, though.  What can we conclude from the idea that blacks are successful exactly ?

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

- They show themselves as if above reproach, which is a blatant lie.

I don't think Conservatives are any different in terms of claiming moral superiority over Liberals.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

They are the ones in power now.

Do you express the same contempt for Conservatives when they're in power?

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