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Universities, from merit to mediocrity


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

See ?  Cites explain things...

Actually they don't some of them, as you can see in this case you made a conclusion based on your view. If you read carefully you will realize I said I don't struggle with this idea of racism. I do recognize tribal tendencies but for this individual they are irrelevant. The brief couple of seconds of automatic pre-judging other individuals go away quite quickly when the other person is doing the right thing and are a productive member of society. 

See ? Cites don't really explain things.

Edited by Independent1986
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Society is in a total war over facts and spin.  Virtually every aspect of society that has any influence is infected by it.  Many (not all) want to push their own agenda, to control the narrative.  We

No cites for most of this, and the single cite is misrepresented by you in your summary.  My thoughts are that alt right hysteria is a thriving cottage industry.

I think that CNN has become just as bad as FOX.  We can blame both networks all we want, but the very sad part is that since they are corporate media, they very clearly are operating on a profit motiv

Maybe if students took courses like engineering, accounting, business and medicine they wouldn't be so unhappy at not being able to find jobs.

The woke but godless, the arrogant but ignorant, the violent but physically unimpressive, the degreed but poorly educated, the broke but acquisitive, the ambitious but stalled—these are history’s ingredients of riot and revolution.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/07/09/woke-fragility-protesters/

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On 7/2/2020 at 7:35 PM, Independent1986 said:

Below are my personal views on this matter:

*Academic merit results from the successful performance of individuals regardless of background.

*Individuals success is no longer considered a reference point for evaluation in universities, only collective traits are now the priority: gender, race, religion, etc.

*The Government is pumping money through programs like OSAP for people to chase their dream and the average to enter a university it can be as low as 60%.

*Critical thinking is not a priority in universities anymore, professors in social science classes main priority is not to teach but to discredit our Western Civilization.

*There are calls for mathematics itself to be open for interpretation and a sign of a racist culture: https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/10/math-racist-university-illinois-professor/

*A record number of students favor socialism over capitalism.

Thoughts ? 

What evidence is there that hiring women and minority groups has led to a decline in the quality of education in Canada?

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

Maybe if students took courses like engineering, accounting, business and medicine they wouldn't be so unhappy at not being able to find jobs.

The woke but godless, the arrogant but ignorant, the violent but physically unimpressive, the degreed but poorly educated, the broke but acquisitive, the ambitious but stalled—these are history’s ingredients of riot and revolution.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/07/09/woke-fragility-protesters/

"Among Canadians aged 25 to 64 with postsecondary qualifications, 81.4% were graduates in fields important for building a strong social infrastructure, such as education, communications, justice, health and others. Contributing to the advancement of Canada's science and technology competitiveness, 18.6% of working-age Canadians with postsecondary qualifications graduated from science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields."

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171129/dq171129a-eng.htm

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Abies said:

What evidence is there that hiring women and minority groups has led to a decline in the quality of education in Canada?

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.  - Ayn Rand.

Affirmative action requires discrimation against the individual just because he/she is part of a certain group (not by choice). It is also an insult to minorities and women that worked hard to succeed.

It is too much currency in circulation, in this case too many "universities". How can you call yourself a math student when majorities of schools allow you in with a 60% functions/calculus mark ? I am not trying to put people down but everyone is unique, some people are better in art or trades.

You know what happens when is too much of something ? Its value goes down. 

I don't have time to do the research,  I am open to read what it is being posted.

Edited by Independent1986
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35 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.  - Ayn Rand.

Affirmative action requires discrimation against the individual just because he/she is part of a certain group (not by choice). It is also an insult to minorities and women that worked hard to succeed.

It is too much currency in circulation, in this case too many "universities". How can you call yourself a math student when majorities of schools allow you in with a 60% functions/calculus mark ? I am not trying to put people down but everyone is unique, some people are better in art or trades.

You know what happens when is too much of something ? Its value goes down. 

I don't have time to do the research,  I am open to read what it is being posted.

Affirmative action does not say let someone who failed math into a math degree or a position where one is required. It says that when you have two equally qualified people, preference should be given to minority or women in order to tackle discrimination against those groups.

Claiming people should be hired based on merits is good and all but it does nothing to deal with the inherent bias people have against minority groups and women.

Funny how when wanting to hire more women and people from minority groups people always insinuate that they aren't qualified.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Maybe if students took courses like engineering, accounting, business and medicine they wouldn't be so unhappy at not being able to find jobs.

The woke but godless, the arrogant but ignorant, the violent but physically unimpressive, the degreed but poorly educated, the broke but acquisitive, the ambitious but stalled—these are history’s ingredients of riot and revolution.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/07/09/woke-fragility-protesters/

The best new degree out there is the WaFB. Woke as Fuck Barista. You're guaranteed a job at a large corporation with that sweet baby hanging on your wall. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Abies said:

It says that when you have two equally qualified people.

Claiming people should be hired based on merits is good and all but it does nothing to deal with the inherent bias people have against minority groups and women.

Funny how when wanting to hire more women and people from minority groups people always insinuate that they aren't qualified.

Who exactly decides when 2 individuals are equally qualified ? Is it Harvard that has a system with different averages for different groups ? Which genius from the sociology department developed an algorithm to ensure a transparent process is in place ?

 In the few instances that Artificial Intelligence was used for hiring, Amazon had one, it was shut down quickly when the results were not politically correct. Here is an idea, sensitivity classes for the Artificial Intelligence.

Martin Luther said that humanity is like a man mounting a horse who always tends to fall off on the other side of the horse.

What is funny is your focus on using minorities and women to hint that because I stand for a strong individual focus system I am being discriminatory.

Qualified and hard working individuals from these groups don't need spokespersons to defend them. They get up and they earn it ! I had someone confide in me one time that they were afraid that people would think he got his job because of affirmative action. The conversation was short and to the point. I just reminded him of his high grade that he achieved and that rarely he picks up his phone because he is constantly working.:D

If you excuse my mediocrity, will search for those cites soon :lol: when I will have some time, right now my white immigrant privilege woke me up after 3 hours of sleep to begin another 12-15 hours work day. 

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13 hours ago, Abies said:

 18.6% of working-age Canadians with postsecondary qualifications graduated from science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields."

That's nice. Are those the ones out in the streets, do you think?

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12 hours ago, Abies said:

Affirmative action does not say let someone who failed math into a math degree or a position where one is required.

That's not true and I've posted cites to that effect. Students of colour are being allowed into programs their grades would never get them into were they white. And the curriculum is being watered down because they are failing to often.

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It says that when you have two equally qualified people, preference should be given to minority or women in order to tackle discrimination against those groups.

That's a theory but is unrealistic. I know people in government and that's never the way it works. Managers/directors are given quotas and directed to meet them. They pressure HR to hire a warm body, as long as it's somewhat capable, of doing the way. In no way are they taken over an equal white person. In fact, some adverts specifically say, "no white people'.

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Claiming people should be hired based on merits is good and all but it does nothing to deal with the inherent bias people have against minority groups and women.

The only evidence you have of 'inherent bias' is that newcomers to Canada are not as economically prosperous as native born Canadians. But given their differing origins, and the known fact of inferior literacy and linguistic skills that's hardly  surprising.

In the US, the evidence is again unequal outcomes, where it is presumed that all unequal outcomes are derived from bias (without evidence). In fact, unequal outcomes, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, are largely culturally based. Asians and Jews do better than Whites because of the priority parents put on education, and because of fewer single parent families. Blacks perform worse do to more single parent families and a low cultural priority on education.

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Funny how when wanting to hire more women and people from minority groups people always insinuate that they aren't qualified.

If they were as qualified as white people they wouldn't need preference given to them.

Edited by Argus
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Penn State University made a statement saying conservative voices are important.

And now it has been forced to retract it.

The message of inclusivity was swiftly met with fire by left-wing students who, according to the school newspaper, “found the Tweet harmful towards students of color and ignorant of the systemic issues that oppress people of color in the United States today.” A number of the offended students statements were then published in the Collegian, where the message was called “disgusting” and a “humiliation for communities of color.”

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/09/penn-state-retracts-statement-saying-conservative-voices-are-important/

 

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A researcher at the University of Maryland has been fired for publishing statistics which run counter to the narrative of racist police.

On June 2, I cited a study from researchers at the Michigan State and the University of Maryland that concludes, “We did not find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime.” This study analyzed 917 officer-involved fatal shootings and found that that “per capita racial disparity in fatal shootings is explained by non-White people’s greater exposure to the police through crime.” The study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences last year.

The College Fix reports that Stephen Hsu was fired from Michigan State University for citing this study and posting an interview of one of its authors, Michigan State colleague Joe Cesario, on his blog. He posted the interview with Cesario on June 2, the same day I cited the study.

On June 25, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Graduate Employees Union was calling for Hsu’s head on twitter. The Journal pointed out that among other things, “The union also faulted him for having ‘directed funding to research downplaying racism in bias in police shootings.’”

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-asian-american-researcher-fired-michigan-state-administration-advancing-facts-police-shootings/

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On 7/8/2020 at 9:24 AM, WestCanMan said:

This topic blends quite naturally with the "No room for debating with the left" topic. 

Factual, logical, accurate and on-point comments which damage alt-left narratives and can't be denied are met with shrill & baseless accusations. 

free-speech.jpg?fit=781%2C439&ssl=1

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On 7/10/2020 at 9:32 AM, Argus said:

A researcher at the University of Maryland has been fired for publishing statistics which run counter to the narrative of racist police.

It's been proven over and over again that freedom of speech laws don't give you the right to yell "BOMB" in an airport or tell the truth on college campuses. 

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On 7/3/2020 at 8:53 PM, Michael Hardner said:

And yet you refer to ideas as diseases.  And I'm supposed to be the one siding against free speech.

You should be able to appreciate that ideas are hardly the same thing as ideology - in spite of the etymology.

I have a fair bit of experience with people who have entered academia to pursue academic excellence and expand the base of knowledge and end up running away from the extreme leftist political environment that destroys any academic ethics that might be trying to survive.  This is hardly a new thing.  My wife encountered ultra-racist academics over 40 years ago in a faculty of education where aboriginal students were given a pass on the academic requirements for both entry and graduation - ending up with the same qualifications as those who actually DID the work and legitimately passed the exams.   An engineer who worked for me became a good friend, and his wife (a genuine maritime liberal) insisted that our views on that subject (after we had lived in the North for a decade) were very racist, so she enrolled in a class at our nearby university in aboriginal studies.  She was (is) a "type A" personality/student and was stunned to see her marks come in middle of the pack when she knew fully well she had aced the course content while people who should never have been given a passing grade were granted top rank.   She was a lot less liberal/Liberal after that experience and her prof went on to become an NDP cabinet minister.   Fast forward a couple of decades and our eldest was teaching and in grad school (sciences at same institution) and was the ONLY fluently anglo (her second language) person in her group and required (by faculty supervisor) to review all papers published in her department as the English was so bad that it would reflect on the ratings of their faculty.  In reality she found that not only was the English unacceptable, but the science wasn't all that good either.

The political component of the failure of our academic, cultural and economic world is very significant and very real.

Edited by cannuck
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1 hour ago, cannuck said:

1. You should be able to appreciate that ideas are hardly the same thing as ideology - in spite of the etymology.

2. I have a fair bit of experience with people who have entered academia to pursue academic excellence and expand the base of knowledge and end up running away from the extreme leftist political environment that destroys any academic ethics that might be trying to survive.  This is hardly a new thing.  My wife encountered ultra-racist academics over 40 years ago in a faculty of education where aboriginal students were given a pass on the academic requirements for both entry and graduation - ending up with the same qualifications as those who actually DID the work and legitimately passed the exams.   An engineer who worked for me became a good friend, and his wife (a genuine maritime liberal) insisted that our views on that subject (after we had lived in the North for a decade) were very racist, so she enrolled in a class at our nearby university in aboriginal studies.  She was (is) a "type A" personality/student and was stunned to see her marks come in middle of the pack when she knew fully well she had aced the course content while people who should never have been given a passing grade were granted top rank.   She was a lot less liberal/Liberal after that experience and her prof went on to become an NDP cabinet minister.   Fast forward a couple of decades and our eldest was teaching and in grad school (sciences at same institution) and was the ONLY fluently anglo (her second language) person in her group and required (by faculty supervisor) to review all papers published in her department as the English was so bad that it would reflect on the ratings of their faculty.  In reality she found that not only was the English unacceptable, but the science wasn't all that good either.

3. The political component of the failure of our academic, cultural and economic world is very significant and very real.

1. The quote I commented on is 'fight back against harmful thinking'.  And so we see that more people than we thought are against free speech after all.
2. Ok, well your personal experience is noted
3. Except that, if you try to look at it objectively it ends up in a hearing of personal experiences.  I have spent a lot of time, for example, looking into accusations of repression of academic freedom and it was *almost* all just noise-making and attention-getting to various angertainment outlets.  That said, there are definitely areas of concern - a few individual cases that are known, as well as a general climate of anti-liberalism and intolerance.  The problem is that no one is willing to look at this problem - which IS a political problem - outside of a political context.

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1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Except that, if you try to look at it objectively it ends up in a hearing of personal experiences.  I have spent a lot of time, for example, looking into accusations of repression of academic freedom and it was *almost* all just noise-making and attention-getting to various angertainment outlets.  That said, there are definitely areas of concern - a few individual cases that are known, as well as a general climate of anti-liberalism and intolerance.  The problem is that no one is willing to look at this problem - which IS a political problem - outside of a political context.

That is testimony that the rest of the country has little to no regard for our post-secondary academic institutions.  They have politicized themselves into obscurity, but we as idiot taxpayers get sucked into funding the massive social engineering project of the left.   Answer: cut off funding for this kind of BS and require actual academic merit to become a student.   A BA and often BSc is no longer much of a value in the workplace, but should not be dismissed as of value to broaden one's horizons - but why do you expect me to fund that???   Perfect example of fiddling while Rome burns.

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43 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1. That is testimony that the rest of the country has little to no regard for our post-secondary academic institutions. 
2. They have politicized themselves into obscurity, but we as idiot taxpayers get sucked into funding the massive social engineering project of the left.   Answer: cut off funding for this kind of BS and require actual academic merit to become a student.   
3. A BA and often BSc is no longer much of a value in the workplace, but should not be dismissed as of value to broaden one's horizons - but why do you expect me to fund that??? 
 

1. Likely true
2. Sorry, I'm not buying it.    I really am not interested in the topic describes hysterically as a 'massive social engineering project of the left'.  I am calling it 'hysteria' in response to your statement, but I will look at a problem expressed soberly and with evidence.
3. I think a lot of arts and science graduates find employment that validates the hard work they put in to get a degree.

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On 7/10/2020 at 12:04 AM, Abies said:

Affirmative action does not say let someone who failed math into a math degree or a position where one is required. It says that when you have two equally qualified people, preference should be given to minority or women in order to tackle discrimination against those groups.

Claiming people should be hired based on merits is good and all but it does nothing to deal with the inherent bias people have against minority groups and women.

Funny how when wanting to hire more women and people from minority groups people always insinuate that they aren't qualified.

There is no inherit bias against minority groups.  Unless you think people look at the race checked off in an application and toss it aside.  Maybe decades ago, but not anymore.  Not for a long time.  Discriminating against White and Asian students to foster "equality" is wrong.  Discrimination in any form based on somebody's skin colour, religion, race, sex, etc is always wrong.  No matter what direction you push it.

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On 7/10/2020 at 12:10 PM, Argus said:

That's nice. Are those the ones out in the streets, do you think?

Nope.  Definitely the gender studies, sociology and art degrees though.

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3 minutes ago, Shady said:

1. There is no inherit bias against minority groups.  Unless you think people look at the race checked off in an application and toss it aside.  Maybe decades ago, but not anymore.  Not for a long time. 
2. Discriminating against White and Asian students to foster "equality" is wrong.  Discrimination in any form based on somebody's skin colour, religion, race, sex, etc is always wrong. 
 

1. We just had a diversity discussion where I work - a major corporation.  Directors and VPs (of colour) hosted and detailed their experiences.  "no inherent bias" doesn't seem to be true, as they were all under 50 years old, some under 40.
2. There are positive ways to boost people based on their characteristics, without shutting others out.  Why do it that ?  Because people think it's a good idea.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. We just had a diversity discussion where I work - a major corporation.  Directors and VPs (of colour) hosted and detailed their experiences.  "no inherent bias" doesn't seem to be true, as they were all under 50 years old, some under 40.

How many were born here?

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. There are positive ways to boost people based on their characteristics, without shutting others out.  Why do it that ?  Because people think it's a good idea.

There is no reason, in Canada, for racial hiring. We do not have a history of discrimination or slavery which has kept racial minorities down for we do not have a history with racial minorities (except natives). Almost all racial minorities in Canada are immigrants or their children. And whatever prejudice they have received is more likely based more on their 'differentness' as opposed to their skin color.

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8 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. How many were born here?

2. There is no reason, in Canada, for racial hiring. We do not have a history of discrimination or slavery which has kept racial minorities down for we do not have a history with racial minorities (except natives). Almost all racial minorities in Canada are immigrants or their children. And whatever prejudice they have received is more likely based more on their 'differentness' as opposed to their skin color.

1. I'm thinking probably none, but the experiences were here and in the US.
2. As I said, some very smart people of colour contradicted your assertion.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Sorry, I'm not buying it.    I really am not interested in the topic describes hysterically as a 'massive social engineering project of the left'.  I am calling it 'hysteria' in response to your statement, but I will look at a problem expressed soberly and with evidence.


3. I think a lot of arts and science graduates find employment that validates the hard work they put in to get a degree.

2.  Would love to have the time to collect data and citations, but unless someone is paying my bill that isn't going to happen.

3.  Some do, but from what I understand many have great difficulty getting what they consider adequate and/or appropriate placements.  One of our kids did vetmed, so had no trouble doing exactly what she trained to do.  The other has four different degrees, and has never had to apply for a job (always sought out) until now that she is way overqualified for just about anything and works far below the kinds of offers she got from the science community.  She was a campus counselor for many years, so heard a lot of the employment frustration from a broad spectrum.

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