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Canada's national debt out of control...


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3 hours ago, cougar said:

I see nothing.  Do you see anything?

No explanations, that's OK.  Most people are confused.

But if you are ever afraid of the National Debt and the taxes the Government wants from you, show them this, and tell them to go and collect from these guys first.  I think of stopping paying tax to the government till they sort this mess first and prove to me that tax was paid.

 

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Canada just basically deferred the pain.  Economic pain now or economic pain later paying back the debt (with interest).  People have to eat, but the full economic effects of this won't be felt for a

Canada is running up 600+ billion in deficit spending and our MP's want the summer off.  Utter horse manure.

I don't see you even mentioning the pandemic and unfavorable economic conditions in the past couple of years.  What do you expect Trudeau to do; or you thought Scheer was going to do better ......for

13 hours ago, cougar said:

No explanations, that's OK.  Most people are confused.

But if you are ever afraid of the National Debt and the taxes the Government wants from you, show them this, and tell them to go and collect from these guys first.  I think of stopping paying tax to the government till they sort this mess first and prove to me that tax was paid.

Having once worked for Canada Revenue I invite you to try this and see how far it gets you. Meanwhile CRA will be seizing your bank accounts.

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4 hours ago, Argus said:

Having once worked for Canada Revenue I invite you to try this and see how far it gets you. Meanwhile CRA will be seizing your bank accounts.

If they did not seize the bank accounts of those involved in the KPMG scam, they sure cannot come after me.    Same principle applies:  If everyone tells them they will not pay before the rich pay, tough luck for them.  They have to bend down.

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31 minutes ago, cougar said:

If they did not seize the bank accounts of those involved in the KPMG scam, they sure cannot come after me.    Same principle applies:  If everyone tells them they will not pay before the rich pay, tough luck for them.  They have to bend down.

I'm not sure what world you live in, but in this one things just don't work that way.

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22 hours ago, cougar said:

I see nothing.  Do you see anything?

Who the money is owed to? - I see nothing solid there either

The money is owed to people that purchase the bonds, be it individuals or other company's, banks, or  governments why is this so hard to comprehend. At the end of the day, these people or organizations are going to want their money, because nothing is for free... Maybe another poster can explain it better.

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3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The money is owed to people that purchase the bonds, be it individuals or other company's, banks, or  governments why is this so hard to comprehend. At the end of the day, these people or organizations are going to want their money, because nothing is for free... Maybe another poster can explain it better.

This is going to be only a  small chunk .  Most money comes from somewhere else.  Did you watch the You-Tube video I posted on p.7?

Have you heard of the government doing a fire sale of bonds because they need more money to get further into debt?  I haven't. 

You are very far from the truth.

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On 7/13/2020 at 2:33 PM, Army Guy said:

The money is owed to people that purchase the bonds, be it individuals or other company's, banks, or  governments why is this so hard to comprehend.

Because it's hard to comprehend how these investors managed to amass savings of $350 billion dollars that Canada just borrowed. Presumably these are the same investors who also parted with $2 trillion to pay for Trump's descent into communism.  Australia hit up the same people for $270 billion.

What's harder to comprehend is that this money was just sitting around waiting to be borrowed and presumably there's a lot more on tap just itching to be loaned out at any governments whim.  The only thing more reckless than all the borrowing going on seems to be all the reckless lending that's going on.

I'm just guessing but presumably we loan money to other countries to so do we have borrow that first or do we have a big bottomless savings account somewhere we can tap into? 

Edited by eyeball
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3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Because it's hard to comprehend how these investors managed to amass savings of $350 billion dollars that Canada just borrowed. Presumably these are the same investors who also parted with $2 trillion to pay for Trump's descent into communism.  Australia hit up the same people for $270 billion.

What's harder to comprehend is that this money was just sitting around waiting to be borrowed and presumably there's a lot more on tap just itching to be loaned out at any governments whim.  The only thing more reckless than all the borrowing going on seems to be all the reckless lending that's going on.

I'm just guessing but presumably we loan money to other countries to so do we have borrow that first or do we have a big bottomless savings account somewhere we can tap into? 

Large institutions buy government bonds, then make them available to, among others, small investors. I own some myself. Albeit through an ETF. My uncle owned the old fashioned kind, paper certificates that had these little tear-off squares for each year that you'd collect interest. I know because I remember being there when his safety deposit box was opened. Millions of Canadians own government bonds, either directly or through various other investment vehicles, including their pension plans - which buy a TON of government bonds.

Thus if we were to repudiate our debt, as some think can be done, one of the first things which would happen would be every pension plan in Canada, public and private, going bankrupt.

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20 hours ago, Argus said:

Large institutions buy government bonds, then make them available to, among others, small investors. I own some myself. Albeit through an ETF. My uncle owned the old fashioned kind, paper certificates that had these little tear-off squares for each year that you'd collect interest. I know because I remember being there when his safety deposit box was opened. Millions of Canadians own government bonds, either directly or through various other investment vehicles, including their pension plans - which buy a TON of government bonds.

Thus if we were to repudiate our debt, as some think can be done, one of the first things which would happen would be every pension plan in Canada, public and private, going bankrupt.

I don't see why it needs to be strictly repudiated unless every pension plan in Canada decides to follow along and jump off the bridge like everyone else. In any case I've seen people and companies go bankrupt before and a few years later they were right back up on the very same horse that bucked them off.

Am I to believe that 4- 5 months ago millions of Canadians had $630 billion on hand and they all just invested it in Ottawa's bonds?  I mean that is what you're saying happened right, Canadians parted with $630 billion in real money.  It's been solicited, loaned and spent.  Did these people and institutions borrow the money they loaned out or something? That seems retarded but these are retarded times so I won't be surprised to learn they must. I'm quite certain we lend money to other countries right?

So who the hell just has $630 billion sitting around waiting to snap up bonds like that?  There's just too many square pegs and round holes in this business to make sense of either we're flat broke or we're not - my experience of both being a lender and a borrower just does not mesh with what I'm being told is the case with national debt.

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9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

...So who the hell just has $630 billion sitting around waiting to snap up bonds like that?  There's just too many square pegs and round holes in this business to make sense of either we're flat broke or we're not - my experience of both being a lender and a borrower just does not mesh with what I'm being told is the case with national debt.

 

Brokers, investors, and funds, from around the world are waiting to snap them up, not just in Canada.   $630 billion is a very small portion of the estimated $100 TRILLION world primary and secondary bond market.    Government bonds are usually purchased at auction by several methods...treasury bills, notes, etc.   The world bond market trades more than $630 billion USD...each day.

Most of my retirement portfolio is in domestic and foreign government/corporate bonds through bond funds, earning a healthy 8% right now.

The world bond market is much larger than the world stock/equity market.

 

 

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Brokers, investors, and funds, from around the world are waiting to snap them up, not just in Canada.   $630 billion is a very small portion of the estimated $100 TRILLION world primary and secondary bond market.    Government bonds are usually purchased at auction by several methods...treasury bills, notes, etc.   The world bond market trades more than $630 billion USD...each day.

Okay good to know. It sounds like people are as eager to lend governments around the planet as much money as they're eager to borrow.

Where's the downside again?

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Governments are like people they have credit ratings and a limit on what they can borrow...use to be based on the gold standard, and to a point most countries still have large piles of gold around, except Canada we spent most of it already....meaning a country could only print money based on how much gold it had to cover the debt.

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12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Governments are like people they have credit ratings and a limit on what they can borrow...use to be based on the gold standard, and to a point most countries still have large piles of gold around, except Canada we spent most of it already....meaning a country could only print money based on how much gold it had to cover the debt.

This is all old Before Times stuff that apparently stopped mattering decades before COVID-19.  With the exception of the odd tax haven everyone is in the hole now and still filled with eager lenders.

If gold still has to be part of the equation just base money on the gold we have stored underground or is whistling over head around the solar system.  I mean that's gotta be more real than just precipitating money out of thin air isn't it?

In the meantime so long as lenders are still so eager for us to borrow their money...what, me worry? Why? Is there a danger the mint will run out of printer toner or something?

Edited by eyeball
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2 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is all old Before Times stuff that apparently stopped mattering decades before COVID-19.  With the exception of the odd tax haven everyone is in the hole now and still filled with eager lenders.

Greece and Argentina would like a word with you.

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On 7/10/2020 at 10:41 PM, cougar said:

Yes, Their scheme is slightly different but equally unsustainable.  They are asking you to pay more than what you take.  At one point you can no longer do that as there is nothing out there to grab and give to them.

Canada's federal government is not a Ponzi scheme.

We all pay taxes. We pay more in than people take out. 

 

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The entire banking system and its financing of all private borrowing is based on the difference in interest rates between what banks pay the central bank and the higher rates we pay the banks.  The central bank can control the level of economic stimulus based on the interest rates it sets.  It can also engage in buying debt directly (quantitative easing).  This can carry on indefinitely as long as investors continue to have faith in the currency and are willing to hold and make investments in it (buying stuff priced in the local currency).  What's more, the values of all major currencies are stabilized through currency swaps in the Libor.  Yes it may seem reassuring to have currency backed by gold or a commodity like oil, yet the values of all commodities are also based on market demand and speculation.

Nevertheless, debt is debt.  We owe it back at interest, even when the rates are low.  Avoid debt but not at your peril.  We've certainly gotten very used to cheap money.  Rates won't stay low forever and you need a certain amount of inflation to inflate your way out of debt, which is why we must avoid deflation.  We may not like rising costs, and we need wages to rise along with them to keep pace, but seeing asset values plummet is the scariest scenario.  The challenge going forward will be maintaining some semblance of minimal inflation and growth, somehow, at at time when our economy is far below capacity and beyond sluggish.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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4 hours ago, Argus said:

Greece and Argentina would like a word with you.

They're probably laughing their asses off at the pickle everyone's joining them in.

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1 hour ago, August1991 said:

We all pay taxes. We pay more in than people take out.

Then why are we in debt?

Government also controls all remaining resources and land.  They dispossess of land by selling it to businesses and then charging annual taxes on same land thus increasing revenues.

However, taxing land, means whoever has the land must generate income on same land to pay taxes.  A mine may extract all ore and then get rid of the land,  forestry will take the trees and then leave the land and so on and so forth, but the interesting part to me is when taxes exceed the productivity of the land in any way. Extraction of resources will leave the government will useless land they cannot sell any more, like landfills and contaminated sites for example.  Those are growing.   So the assets values will go down at one point, whatever that will bring along.

Despite all explanations so far, I continue to maintain our government is a Ponzi scheme.

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On 7/17/2020 at 12:37 AM, cougar said:

Then why are we in debt?

....

Canada -the country, the people, the rocks/trees, this space on this planet -is not in debt.

1. We have more real assets (rocks/trees) than paper claims on these assets.

2. We have a sustainable society.

==========

Some Canadians are in debt.  They borrowed to buy a house. Other Canadians have savings. They lent to to the Canadians in debt.

Overall, added together, Canadians are not in debt. Even if we add what Justin Trudeau recently borrowed on our behalf, we are not collectively in debt.

In 1946 for example, Canadian governments borrowed much more than our federal government is borrowing now.

But if Trudeau Jnr keeps borrowing/spending as he's done recently, then we may have a problem. So far, the federal government is not a Ponzi scheme. 

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On 7/17/2020 at 12:37 AM, cougar said:

Government also controls all remaining resources and land.

...

This is a complicated question: define "control". What do you "own"?

Do you control/own the land/air above your home? If an Air Canada plane flies directly above your house, can you charge Air Canada for using the "air space" above  your land?

=====

Cougar,

You ask good questions. Ask more. 

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20 hours ago, August1991 said:

"we are not collectively in debt. "

 

This is a complicated question: define "control". What do you "own"?

Do you control/own the land/air above your home? If an Air Canada plane flies directly above your house, can you charge Air Canada for using the "air space" above  your land?

 

We may not be collectively in debt, because what is supposedly owed by our government to the banks and those behind the banks is owed to the winner of our Monopoli game in Canada.  As I said those winners do not expect to collect all of their bogus winnings, but they can collect as much as you can afford to pay them.   They have ways to do their calculation and squeeze the last cent out of your pocket to the point where you barely survive.

What do I "own"?  Philosophically speaking  I own nothing.  None of us owns anything.  We borrow substance from the environment and give it back upon our demise.

But a fucking capitalist government will make you believe you can own land and stuff, so they can sell those to you.  They can charge you for water and the next step is to start charging you for air.  They can install breathing meters on you and ask you to pay based on your consumption.  If you can't pay, air supply to you is cut off, till you can pay, which will be about 180 seconds.

With all this being said.  I am surprised there are so many people (almost everyone), who accept being screwed and obediently bend over instead of fight for their actual freedom.

Edited by cougar
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1 hour ago, cougar said:

 

 

1 hour ago, cougar said:

But a fucking capitalist government will make you believe you can own land and stuff, so they can sell those to you.  They can charge you for water and the next step is to start charging you for air.  They can install breathing meters on you and ask you to pay based on your consumption.  If you can't pay, air supply to you is cut off, till you can pay, which will be about 180 seconds.

With all this being said.  I am surprised there are so many people (almost everyone), who accept being screwed and obediently bend over instead of fight for their actual freedom.

Communism doesn't work.  According to you . . . capitalist governments don't work.  Tell us what does work.  Be specific if you're able.

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2 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

 

Communism doesn't work.  According to you . . . capitalist governments don't work.  Tell us what does work.  Be specific if you're able.

What do you expect me to do?  Re-write the Marxist manifests here to explain how the world is supposed to be run by people and for people?

I am not going to be comparing socialism with capitalism to determine which is better.  

We can have a brand new political order with a brand new name , where the name does not matter.  

What matters is how we can get our freedom back and shift focus to the important things in life.

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