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Covid Is Turning Us Into a Socialist/Fascist Country


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2 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

And then get ejected from the store.  But yeah if you have time to waste go for it.  

 

No, they will just ask you to put it back on.   Store staff are not police officers.

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By the time covid is gone, the enduring legacy of it will be: 1) Massive carnage among small to medium businesses, while mega-corporations like Home Depot, FB and Amazon experience growth  2

I think the planning and organization required to pull off a world wide pandemic in order to implement (Fascism? Socialism? Communism?) in Canada is well beyond the capabilities of our Government, or

Wait what?  If you raped somebody you get released because they don’t want you to catch covid?  But if you’re a business owner and open up without authorization or something, you can be jailed and the

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, they will just ask you to put it back on.   Store staff are not police officers.

And if they refuse?  You could probably get away with it once, but they'll remember you.  If someone kept it up they can be barred from the store.  No shirt no shoes no mask no service.

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3 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

And if they refuse?  You could probably get away with it once, but they'll remember you.  If someone kept it up they can be barred from the store.  No shirt no shoes no mask no service.

 

Look...we can play with this all you want.   Many people don't even wear the mask properly when they do.

The socialists and fascists can't get as much control as they think/want.

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7 hours ago, Boges said:

When people who think things should be business as usual say the vulnerable need protecting, would the vulnerable not be the morbidly obese then? 

Morbidly obese, very elderly, people with respiratory diseases (CF, emphysema, heavy smokers, mesothelioma,....). Some of those people a lot more than others, but I think you must know the list.

Some people need to take special precautions every flu season, and especially now. 

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

People who get old, who are born with compromised immune systems or who develop them, people who have cancer or COPD, hypothroidism, diabetes or a plethora of other diseases - all expendable, all to blame for being at risk of dying of Covid.

This is just disingenuous and accusatory/idiotic blather.

The people that you are talking about are at risk every year from the flu, common low-level infections, or falling on ice, etc.

Do you think that we can take the time to bubble-wrap our entire society to protect those people? If we burst our wallets doing that, then how can we afford to save the lives of people who get hit by cars, or get other diseases which are normally curable? There are 38M people in this country, it's impossible to make it so that everyone lives to 83. 

We already have universal health care here and no one is bemoaning the extra care that some people need for their entire lives. Don't act like we're not doing enough. Destroying the economy makes it so that we have no money to save anyone from anything. 

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Also, how come so many of the folks who said "lets get back to work while protecting the vulnerable" also tend to be the ones who object to wearing a mask?  Can only be some massive plot by pro-eugenics people to eliminate undesirable characteristics - like being old, fat or sick.

Wearing a mask on public transit or on an airplane is sensible but for life in general it is not. Some people need to take extra precautions and they already know that. 

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They don't actually care about mental health; its just a ploy to make themselves look like they care beyond their personal and immediate convenience.

I get that you haven't been told to care about mental health by CNN or CTV, so you don't, but you have no clue what other people actually care about, you can only guess. Considering how wildly inaccurate all of your other comments are your guesses probably aren't worth hearing. Feel free to stick to the facts of the matter. Facts are important and useful.

 

Mental health issues are statistically proven to rise with jobless/poverty rates. That's a fact. I don't think we need to get into a discussion about the various ways in which mental health affects children or our society in general, but just understand that at some point a line is crossed where the damage done by lockdowns & covapidity vastly outweighs the benefits of overzealous actions. Blocking travel from China made sense. Blocking access to public parks and shutting down the economy does not make sense. 

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21 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Wearing a mask on public transit or on an airplane is sensible but for life in general it is not. Some people need to take extra precautions and they already know that. 

Everybody should take the "extra precaution" of wearing a mask in public indoor spaces to avoid infecting the "vulnerable".  Masks protect others much more than they protect the wearer.

So which is it?  We  - everybody - takes precautions, Covid infections remain low and we don't have to shut things down again (as some places are already doing);

OR

Vulnerable people take precautions that protect others, Covid infection rates rise, hospitals are overwhelmed, people die, restrictions are increased, impacting the economy and creating mental health issues from job loss and vulnerable people being stuck home alone.

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8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Everybody should take the "extra precaution" of wearing a mask in public indoor spaces to avoid infecting the "vulnerable".  Masks protect others much more than they protect the wearer.

So which is it?  We  - everybody - takes precautions, Covid infections remain low and we don't have to shut things down again (as some places are already doing);

OR

Vulnerable people take precautions that protect others, Covid infection rates rise, hospitals are overwhelmed, people die, restrictions are increased, impacting the economy and creating mental health issues from job loss and vulnerable people being stuck home alone.

At the beginning of the outbreak, when covid was possibly a dangerous pandemic, it was extremely important to take serious common-sense precautions like blocking travel from infected populations & wearing masks. 

We did absolutely nothing for almost 2 months, and we got lucky. Covid isn't the kind of thing that you have to shut a country down over.  

Sooo...C19 is here, we know how generally-mild it is, the time for widespread & drastic action has passed.

The most important thing to do now is remember how important PPE is for the future, and that blocking travel from infected areas isn't racist.  

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22 minutes ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

No more moral hazard....lets just protect everyone from every risk until we go broke...

This article bears reading again.

 

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Your money or your life? Coronavirus-era economics makes us ask grim questions about how to value each other

The pandemic is forcing us to ask these grave and unsentimental questions. This is something pandemics do: They foment unrest and radical thinking. Which is more important: our money, or our lives? How should we measure the damage the pandemic is doing? In economic terms? Or in human costs? Should one matter more than the other? Who knows better, the doctors or the economists? What is the economic cost and value of saving a human life?

To the surprise of many, that last question actually has an answer.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-your-money-or-your-life-coronavirus-era-economics-makes-us-ask-grim/

 

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A human life has an official government value: roughly US$10-million.

It’s known as the “value of a statistical life,” or VSL, and was figured out decades ago by economists trying to determine the value of saving a life – to know if new pollution standards or a drug therapy were actually worth the added cost of producing them. By now the calculation has been performed so many times it is roughly standardized...

 

...In other words, if physical distancing saves 140,000 Canadian lives over the course of the pandemic – another conservative estimate – that’s worth $1.5-trillion. That’s more than seven times the projected $200-billion cost of the Trudeau-Morneau bailout. Physical distancing may be an economic nightmare, but it’s also a solid rebuke to bottom-line assessments of the value of human existence.

 

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On 8/6/2020 at 1:58 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, they will just ask you to put it back on.   Store staff are not police officers.

They can order you to leave their private property or refuse to serve you.  if you don't comply then cops can be called because you're both trespassing and breaking the mask law thingy.

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16 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

USA death rate is 3.2%, which is higher than the actual # because nowhere near every COVID case has been tested. So you're looking at a 97% survival rate at the very worst, and it's likely higher than that.

That'll only be about 10 million by the time COVID-19 is as common as the cold.

Can't get there fast enough eh?

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31 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

USA death rate is 3.2%, which is higher than the actual # because nowhere near every COVID case has been tested. So you're looking at a 97% survival rate at the very worst, and it's likely higher than that.

They don't count every Covid death, because some people die at home.  We'll never know for sure how many actually died from Covid, and we won't know for a while what the actual fatality rate is, or how many survivors suffer long term effects.  There's way more we don't know than do know, at the moment.  

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10 hours ago, eyeball said:

This article bears reading again.

 

 

 

Some people think we have unlimited resources (money is a resource) Money is a limited resource and what you spend in one area means you can't spend in another area.

One way to look at the cost of the virus is all the money we spent to keep people at home doing nothing is a hole which will have to be filled in the future with people working 

to pay for it. What will probably happen is the Government will have less money for schools roads transit etc. Productivity has declined during the virus and so will our standards of living.

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1 hour ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

Some people think we have unlimited resources

Did you read the article in its entirety? Some people think the econonic fears pandemics give rise to are ill informed at best and dangerous at worst. 

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14 hours ago, dialamah said:

They don't count every Covid death, because some people die at home.  We'll never know for sure how many actually died from Covid, and we won't know for a while what the actual fatality rate is, or how many survivors suffer long term effects.  There's way more we don't know than do know, at the moment.  

The threat is really for older people and people with compromised health.  We're doing this all for them.  In my age group the fatality rate in Canada is 0.5%, which probably accounts for people already sick with compromised immunity, like cancer treatments or whatever.  There's also zero deaths in Canada for people under 20 y/o, which supports school reopenings.

I'm not America-stupid, I still wear my mask willingly, but we also have to put the stats in perspective.  COVID is certainly much more fatal and more easily spread than the flu, but everyone who gets it aren't dropping like flies.  The overall fatality rate is around 3.8% for known cases, mainly among seniors.  Compare that to 10% for SARS.

Yes there are concerns for long-term effects, like when you get pneumonia.

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15 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The threat is really for older people and people with compromised health.  We're doing this all for them.  In my age group the fatality rate in Canada is 0.5%, which probably accounts for people already sick with compromised immunity, like cancer treatments or whatever.  There's also zero deaths in Canada for people under 20 y/o, which supports school reopenings.

Don't forget that 15% of the people who get this thing need hospital treatment, and another 5% wind up in critical care with a hose stuffed down their throat.

 

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17 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

A human life has an official government value: roughly US$10-million.

It’s known as the “value of a statistical life,” or VSL, and was figured out decades ago by economists trying to determine the value of saving a life – to know if new pollution standards or a drug therapy were actually worth the added cost of producing them. By now the calculation has been performed so many times it is roughly standardized...

 

...In other words, if physical distancing saves 140,000 Canadian lives over the course of the pandemic – another conservative estimate – that’s worth $1.5-trillion. That’s more than seven times the projected $200-billion cost of the Trudeau-Morneau bailout. Physical distancing may be an economic nightmare, but it’s also a solid rebuke to bottom-line assessments of the value of human existence.

 

 

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Well,” he said, “let’s take a group of 10,000 workers. Let’s say they face a risk of one chance in 10,000 – that, on average, one member of this group is going to die from a job injury. And suppose these workers are willing to do this job in return for an extra thousand dollars pay per year. For the group of 10,000 workers, the extra thousand dollars pay would add up to 10 million dollars. And that’s the amount of means they require in terms of compensation for the one expected death for their group.”

Prof. Viscusi paused. “It's valuable in figuring out the benefits of social distancing,” he said.

 

Does anyone else think these numbers are made up? I have tried to find a source that would back this up but there is not one....   Maybe it is just me but your article pulls numbers out of his ass, and the explanation of it all is also out of his ass.....meaning that VSL could be anything you want it to be simply by changing the numbers....in reality we are not talking about just 10,000 workers we are talking millions, and i'm almost sure most jobs with any risk involved pay out more than simple 1000.00 dollars a year.... 

Here in Canada this is what a government workers life is worth, a soldier gets one years wages, plus a free burial, and spouse gets access to Supplementary death benefits (sort of a life insurance only paid out monthly ) and all toll not even close to 10 million , not even close to one million, maybe you might get 300 k...

in other words your not saving 1.5 trillion. This whole article is a sham to provide answers why the we are going this route of shutting everything down... 

 

to put some context behind these numbers the Flu kills between 2000 and 8000 Canadians each year. no shut down of economy,

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-deaths-reality-check-1.1127442#:~:text=" The flu is serious%2C" he tells us,winter companions include coronavirus%2C adenovirus and Streptococcus pneumonia.

Tuberculosis kills more people than any other infectious disease, according to information shared by the United Nations (UN) on Tuesday.

Around 1.5 million people died from the bacterial infection in 2018, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported, bringing attention to World Tuberculosis Day on March 24.

Over 4,000 people die of tuberculosis every day. or 1.5 million people in 2018... all with out a global shut down,  WHY ? 

https://www.dw.com/en/who-tuberculosis-is-the-worlds-deadliest-infectious-disease/a-52895167

Covid has claimed over 725,000 people globally....

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8 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Does anyone else think these numbers are made up? I have tried to find a source that would back this up but there is not one....   Maybe it is just me but your article pulls numbers out of his ass, and the explanation of it all is also out of his ass.....meaning that VSL could be anything you want it to be simply by changing the numbers...

All that changes are the causes of death. The base value of ten million US$ is adjusted for different currencies (the article for example notes the value is $7.6 million when calculating for our country) and i would expect inflation is also factored in overtime but the method used to value a human life and the cost of saving one is done according to a standard that economists have been using for decades. There's all sorts of information about VSLs.

Like you I'm not an expert at economics but unlike you I don't let my puzzlement lead me to conclude I must know better than the experts do which is a phenomenon that COVID appears to exploit mercilessly.

You see the same phenomenon with climate change.  Its the standard for conservative methodology I guess - it can be changed to mean anything or nothing...no expertise required. 

 

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3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm not America-stupid, I still wear my mask willingly, but we also have to put the stats in perspective.  COVID is certainly much more fatal and more easily spread than the flu, but everyone who gets it aren't dropping like flies.  The overall fatality rate is around 3.8% for known cases, mainly among seniors.  Compare that to 10% for SARS.

I appreciate the clarification on your thoughts, and I agree with you more than disagree.  

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4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm not America-stupid, I still wear my mask willingly, but we also have to put the stats in perspective.  COVID is certainly much more fatal and more easily spread than the flu, but everyone who gets it aren't dropping like flies.  The overall fatality rate is around 3.8% for known cases, mainly among seniors.  Compare that to 10% for SARS.

I'm far more concerned about the global  stupidity rate which appears to be around 50%.

Its just too critical a mass to overcome. I think we're fucked but lets be honest we've pretty much been a sitting duck for a major collapse for years.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, eyeball said:

A human life has an official government value: roughly US$10-million.

It’s known as the “value of a statistical life,” or VSL, and was figured out decades ago by economists trying to determine the value of saving a life – to know if new pollution standards or a drug therapy were actually worth the added cost of producing them. By now the calculation has been performed so many times it is roughly standardized...

A Dodge Ram is worth $60k. Or at least that’s what it would take for you to drive off the lot with a new one. 
A rusty 1985 Dodge Ram that burns oil and needs a transmission has no value outside of a salvage yard. 

Likewise, an 85 yr old with two or more co-morbidities isn’t worth as much as a newborn, or especially an 18 year old immigrating to the country with valuable job skills. Instead of plus $10M, the old, sick people are actually a drain on the economy from the POV of a PM, or a Minister of Health/Finance. They use the medical system more than other Canadians and they’re usually getting pensions, plus no one in that demographic contributes to the economy anymore.  
 

Is that why our government had the policies of “Leave the flights from China open and don’t wear masks”?
 

I’ve read that 81% of our deaths here were care-home residents. I have no way of knowing if that’s true so I won’t even bother posting a link, but the policies that Trudeau espoused from Jan 31 - March 16th certainly point to him not valuing Canadians’ lives at all. 

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11 hours ago, eyeball said:

Did you read the article in its entirety? Some people think the econonic fears pandemics give rise to are ill informed at best and dangerous at worst. 

Yes..... the Pandemic and economics fears are 2 different issues.....the pandemic fast forwarded the economic problem which is debt caused by government policy. Government has basically taken over the economy. There is no moral hazard for companies and individuals. They have spent a lot more money then probably had to spend.....I don't think people realize that the government has no money but the money they take from the people. I don't think that government debt, company debt and consumer debt all at astronomical levels is ill informed. I think its a reality and the consequences won't be fun...

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4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

A Dodge Ram is worth $60k. Or at least that’s what it would take for you to drive off the lot with a new one. 
A rusty 1985 Dodge Ram that burns oil and needs a transmission has no value outside of a salvage yard. 

Likewise, an 85 yr old with two or more co-morbidities isn’t worth as much as a newborn, or especially an 18 year old immigrating to the country with valuable job skills. Instead of plus $10M, they are actually a drain on the economy from the POV of a PM, or a Minister of Health/Finance. The old people use the medical system more than other Canadians and they’re usually getting pensions, no one in that demographic contributes to the economy anymore.  Hence the policy of “Leave the flights from China open and don’t wear masks”.
 

I’ve heard that 81% of our deaths here were care-home residents. I have no way of knowing if that’s true, but the policies that Trudeau espoused from Jan 31 - March 16th point to him not valuing Canadians’ lives at all. 

If a human life is worth 10 million whats on the liability side????

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1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Is that why our government had the policies of “Leave the flights from China open and don’t wear masks”?

I’ve read that 81% of our deaths here were care-home residents. I have no way of knowing if that’s true so I won’t even bother posting a link, but the policies that Trudeau espoused from Jan 31 - March 16th certainly point to him not valuing Canadians’ lives at all. 

He's a globalist idiot who doesn't want to offend anyone by closing flights and wants to save the world by sending our PPE to China in Feb.

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