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Covid Is Turning Us Into a Socialist/Fascist Country


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9 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'm far more concerned about the global  stupidity rate which appears to be around 50%.

You have to consider the entire population needs lessons on things.   Canada just learned one here - that governments sometimes do things.

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By the time covid is gone, the enduring legacy of it will be: 1) Massive carnage among small to medium businesses, while mega-corporations like Home Depot, FB and Amazon experience growth  2

I think the planning and organization required to pull off a world wide pandemic in order to implement (Fascism? Socialism? Communism?) in Canada is well beyond the capabilities of our Government, or

Wait what?  If you raped somebody you get released because they don’t want you to catch covid?  But if you’re a business owner and open up without authorization or something, you can be jailed and the

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10 hours ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

If a human life is worth 10 million whats on the liability side????

I'm not the one who started placing dollar values on human lives just to make Trudeau's deficit look good, I'm not really in the business of estimating the value of human lives. 

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14 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'm far more concerned about the global  stupidity rate which appears to be around 50%.

What a coincidence. 50% of the population drinks stupidity from a firehose when they watch CTV and CNN. 

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You have to consider the entire population needs lessons on things.   Canada just learned one here - that governments sometimes do things.

If by 'things' you mean: intentionally bring as much covid into the country as possible, rack up catastrophic debt  and use the Bank of Canada like a personal chequing account, you'd be correct. 

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17 hours ago, eyeball said:

All that changes are the causes of death. The base value of ten million US$ is adjusted for different currencies (the article for example notes the value is $7.6 million when calculating for our country) and i would expect inflation is also factored in overtime but the method used to value a human life and the cost of saving one is done according to a standard that economists have been using for decades. There's all sorts of information about VSLs.

Like you I'm not an expert at economics but unlike you I don't let my puzzlement lead me to conclude I must know better than the experts do which is a phenomenon that COVID appears to exploit mercilessly.

You see the same phenomenon with climate change.  Its the standard for conservative methodology I guess - it can be changed to mean anything or nothing...no expertise required. 

 

Your right I am not an expert at economics, in fact There is very little that I am an expert in, what i do know is to be suspicious  of anything the government does do or use to explain to us stupid taxpayers on how they use our money....this is one of those examples. So yes i did question it...and in this case the "experts" are more magicians than experts....one would think that they could have atleast standardized the formula so we could calculate the same answers.

Yes there is a lot of info about VSL, but not any in any official federal Canadian web site, nor are there any examples of where such info is used on a regular basis, not saying it is not used, just there is no info on any fed site or examples of how it is used.  

-Goggle also shows that there are many different ways to calculate VSL, each are very different and each comes up with a very different figure, "go figure" no standardization in any of them, basically you can pick which one sells your objective more effectively...

- because there are so many ways to calculate VSL , each country can have multiple VSL per country, for each year  for instance Canada has a range form 2.8 mil to 8.8 mil for the same year...i mention that because those figures would certainly effect your end calculation would they not. you could have an end state of 350 bil saved to 1.5 trillion as you suggested..

- in fact each one of the ways of deciding a VSL is based on best guesses, and not by hard figures, these VSL are used to convince taxpayers that the governments decision is based on facts , when in reality they are nothing more than best guess...and Lastly they are only used when saving a life, and only when it suits them, not when the government has to pay out for a death, here they have designed another magical math formula designed to save the government maximum money.. 

There are several reasons, however, to be skeptical of policies proposed by government agencies in this area.

PEOPLE DO NOT ACCURATELY PERCEIVE RISKS

  • Individuals have cognitive biases that do not allow them to accurately assess the risks they face.
  • People often overestimate small risks and underestimate relatively large risks, which can inflate VSL calculations for small environmental hazards.
  • Policymakers, voters, and politicians are also subject to these biases which leads to over-reaction to and over-regulation of small risks.

THE VSL MAY BE OVERESTIMATED DUE TO PUBLICATION BIAS

  • Publication bias occurs when journals are more likely to publish studies that find large or statistically significant VSL estimates, while studies with small VSL estimates are less likely to be published.
  • Some studies suggest VSL estimates may be significantly overestimated due to publication bias. Accounting for this bias may reduce VSL estimates by as much as 70 to 80 percent.

MANY STATED PREFERENCE STUDIES ARE UNRELIABLE

  • Stated preference studies ask people how much they would be willing to pay to reduce risk in a hypothetical situation.
  • Stated preference studies are subject to “hypothetical bias” that can inflate VSL estimates because people say they are willing to pay more to avoid risk than they actually are.
  • Stated preference studies regularly fail scope tests. Preferences estimated from these studies do not appear rational. In other words, willingness to pay estimates from these studies are not related to the size of the risk.

AGENCIES HAVE INCENTIVES TO MAXIMIZE BUDGETS

  • Public Choice Theory suggests that government agencies are incentivized to use policies and procedures designed to maximize budgets.
  • Agencies are incentivized to use larger VSL estimates to increase the likelihood that their proposed regulations will pass a benefit-cost test.
  • Agencies have the incentive to ignore or avoid doing benefit-cost analysis on regulations that would not pass.

POLITICAL OR BUREAUCRATIC CONSIDERATIONS MAY TRUMP BENEFIT–COST ANALYSIS

  • VSL estimates are subject to political pressure.
  • It is politically unpopular to reduce the VSL because the public perceives reducing the VSL as lowering the value of life.
  • When the Environmental Protection Agency tried to reduce VSL estimates for senior citizens to reflect older people’s lower willingness to pay for risk reduction, Congress prevented this change from happening to avoid upsetting constituents.
  • Ignoring or avoiding benefit-cost analysis can lead to over-regulation.

 

https://www.strata.org/vsl/

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In the OP, West Can wrote

"Remember that liberal politicians on both sides of the border did everything possible to kill people via covid at the outset - now they all act like they're the champions of the cause. They did things like oppose travel bans, encourage large gatherings in Feb and March, encourage rioting & looting (large groups of people in close proximity exerting themselves and looting buildings), told people NOT to wear masks, put infected people into care homes... (Honestly, lib sycos need to look over that list and try to find a single example of me not being 100% correct - and what I'm saying is = "Libs/Dems intentionally killed tens of thousands of people")."

WC, I have to point out some errors. What documentation do you have to say the Government "encourage(d) rioting & looting (large groups of people in close proximity exerting themselves and looting buildings)?

You refer to the Public Health officials telling "people NOT to wear masks." At that time, no one was supposed to leave their residence for other than essential needs. You don't need a mask if you are not in close proximity to anyone outside your immediate household. We should still be "staying the blazes home," to quote a certain Premier.

What evidence do you have that the Government intentionally inserted infected people into care homes?

Where is the evidence that the Government "intentionally killed tens of thousands of people?"

Why would the Government kill tens of thousands of citizens. How do you see that as a way of getting votes?

I take no pleasure in having to defend the Grits, but your mistaken claims require correction.

 

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7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

If by 'things' you mean: intentionally bring as much covid into the country as possible, rack up catastrophic debt  and use the Bank of Canada like a personal chequing account, you'd be correct. 

 The word they use for the money they are spending is "they are making an Investment".......when they pay people to stay home and foreign people to come here and work on farms...Its an investment......or a con to keep food prices low so people think there is no inflation!!!!!

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To those who point out that it is the elderly and chronically ill that die, you should know that if you are really lucky, maybe you too will live to be elderly. I am a senior but I am not a demographic. I am a tax-paying citizen. If I can avoid people who fail to take precautions, my chances, based on family history and lifestyle, give me reason to believe I will live and contribute to the country for another thirty years. It is only a demographic when it isn't about you. :)

Edited by Queenmandy85
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28 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

To those who point out that it is the elderly and chronically ill that die, you should know that if you are really lucky, maybe you too will live to be elderly. I am a senior but I am not a demographic. I am a tax-paying citizen. If I can avoid people who fail to take precautions, my chances, based on family history and lifestyle, give me reason to believe I will live and contribute to the country for another thirty years. It is only a demographic when it isn't about you. :)

That's great pops. let us know when you're 90 and living in a home, demented, and when you get it then we can talk about whether you should be given drastic rescue measures, or allowed to die in dignity.

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9 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

That's great pops. let us know when you're 90 and living in a home, demented, and when you get it then we can talk about whether you should be given drastic rescue measures, or allowed to die in dignity.

There is no dignity in dying. Most seniors do not suffer from dementia. If you mind your manners and avoid ticking off your elders, you may be lucky enough to live to be 90. My Great Uncle Jack lived to be 104. I have a photo of him giving a speech in top hat and tails when he was 100. I see Captain Sir Tom Moore raising lots of money for the healthcare system. 

If you are unfortuate enough to be " 90 and living in a home, demented," we can talk and you can tell me what you would give to have a few more years, days or even minutes of life. It is not right to be cavalier about someone else's life. It is too precious, especially when it is your own.

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51 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There is no dignity in dying. Most seniors do not suffer from dementia. If you mind your manners and avoid ticking off your elders, you may be lucky enough to live to be 90. My Great Uncle Jack lived to be 104. I have a photo of him giving a speech in top hat and tails when he was 100. I see Captain Sir Tom Moore raising lots of money for the healthcare system. 

If you are unfortuate enough to be " 90 and living in a home, demented," we can talk and you can tell me what you would give to have a few more years, days or even minutes of life. It is not right to be cavalier about someone else's life. It is too precious, especially when it is your own.

It's not up to other people to destroy their lives so that you're at less of a risk.  Practicing mitigation and distancing, wash your hands, eat right and exercise.

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36 minutes ago, Shady said:

It's not up to other people to destroy their lives so that you're at less of a risk.  Practicing mitigation and distancing, wash your hands, eat right and exercise.

What happened to the "We're all in this together?"  I'm not sure what you mean by people destroying ther lives.

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14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Wearing a mask is destroying your life?  Doesn't that seem just a little bit silly?  

Never said that.  Great strawman though! :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What happened to the "We're all in this together?"  I'm not sure what you mean by people destroying ther lives.

I'm not sure what you mean by we're all in this together.

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2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If you are unfortuate enough to be " 90 and living in a home, demented," we can talk and you can tell me what you would give to have a few more years, days or even minutes of life. It is not right to be cavalier about someone else's life. It is too precious, especially when it is your own.

No need to act like you're the only person who is old, or who knows what death is all about. We are all in the same boat in case you forgot. I've had people die in my arms who were very sick, so I know what getting to that point in life is like. And despite any yearnings to live that may seem normal now while all's still going well, there's also a point when the person needs to be let go. That's called humane and dying with dignity. Yes, there is such a thing. I assure you it happens every day in hospitals all across the land, in the most considerate and humane way possible.

Enough with leftists moaning and whimpering about life and death. I'll tell you right now, you gonna die. The pertinent issue to the topic here is questioning the need to fight the virus at all costs.

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I think what he means is this pandemic is a Canadian problem, one that will require action and sacrifices from all of us if we are to overcome it... whether we are just starting out in life or coming to the end of our life's cycle ..... 

 

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9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

No need to act like you're the only person who is old, or who knows what death is all about. We are all in the same boat in case you forgot. I've had people die in my arms who were very sick, so I know what getting to that point in life is like. And despite any yearnings to live that may seem normal now while all's still going well, there's also a point when the person needs to be let go. That's called humane and dying with dignity. Yes, there is such a thing. I assure you it happens every day in hospitals all across the land, in the most considerate and humane way possible.

Enough with leftists moaning and whimpering about life and death. I'll tell you right now, you gonna die. The pertinent issue to the topic here is questioning the need to fight the virus at all costs.

WOW, good pep talk coach , shit even I'm depressed now...Somehow i think you missed Queens message... Just curious where is the line in the sand for you, while fighting this virus.

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17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think what he means is this pandemic is a Canadian problem, one that will require action and sacrifices from all of us if we are to overcome it... whether we are just starting out in life or coming to the end of our life's cycle ..... 

 

Everyone is sacrificing.  That's why everybody is wearing masks.

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Not everyone, we still have thousands of beach goers, travelers, plus the i don't care any more crowd, I mean we have already  heavily damage our economy for decades to come, and yet some refuse to compile with a few social distancing rules. 

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11 minutes ago, Boges said:

1) That's not really a huge sacrifice. 

2) Not "everyone" is wearing masks. 

1) That and distancing is all that's required.

2) 99% of people are.

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1 minute ago, Shady said:

1) That and distancing is all that's required.

2) 99% of people are.

1) And it's still something many Americans don't seem to get. See the Sturgis bike rally going ahead this year. 

2) Cite. 

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6 minutes ago, Boges said:

1) And it's still something many Americans don't seem to get. See the Sturgis bike rally going ahead this year. 

2) Cite. 

1) Them and many protesters too.

2) https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/majority-canadians-wearing-masks-public-study

Anyways, I'm not sure what you're point is.  Unless you wanna turn this topic into another Trump/America thing like you do every other topic.  Enough.  Get some help with your problem.

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1 minute ago, Shady said:

1) Them and many protesters too.

Many protestors also wear maskts. 

Quote

Your link indicates 13% never do. So at the very best it's 87%. 

And extra 32% seldom do. That's a nebulous statistic. I seldom wear a mask because I rarely go into indoor public places. I'm mostly at home, in my car at work and outside. I've even stopped going to the gym, even though I technically can now. 

 

Quote

Anyways, I'm not sure what you're point is.  Unless you wanna turn this topic into another Trump/America thing like you do every other topic.  Enough.  Get some help with your problem.

You can't really debate this issue without comparing how Canada and Europe have responded and how the US has. The differences can't really be more stark. 

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