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Ulterior Motives Behind Restrictions?


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8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you think the pandemic is being used as an excuse to restrict the actions of the population for other reasons?

No.  Similar actions by authorities resulted in similar conspiracies being floated by some portion of the public during the Spanish flu.  Fines and arrests of people who refused to follow public health orders happened, same as today.  Once the pandemic ended, public health orders ended, and life returned to normal. 

This is what will happen this time too - governments want their economies to grow, create tax revenue, get themselves re-elected - paying or forcing people to stay at home is not a viable option for government.

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11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you think the pandemic is being used as an excuse to restrict the actions of the population for other reasons?

No. I think that's a dumb idea without any logic or evidence behind it.

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4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Once precedents are set for the removal of liberties they can be removed again.  Be careful what you support.  

What kind of precedent?  There aren't any rights challenges being made in courts.

The people are pretty unhappy with this situation, so I can't imagine what they would be able to use this as a precedent for.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

What kind of precedent?  There aren't any rights challenges being made in courts.

The people are pretty unhappy with this situation, so I can't imagine what they would be able to use this as a precedent for.

Actually there have been.  A father and his autistic child were issued a ticket for being in a parking lot.  I don't think livelihoods and freedom of movement within borders should be shut down except under the most conditional and temporary circumstances.  

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25 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Actually there have been.  A father and his autistic child were issued a ticket for being in a parking lot.  

2. I don't think livelihoods and freedom of movement within borders should be shut down except under the most conditional and temporary circumstances.  

1. Ok - what's the challenge ?  What is the legal basis ?  Or is this just a complaint in the press ?
2. Ok that's what you think.  Now back to your post: you said freedoms can be removed again if the pandemic is used as a precedent.  I'm asking for an example of why/how that would happen.  Got anything ?

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9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok - what's the challenge ?  What is the legal basis ?  Or is this just a complaint in the press ?
2. Ok that's what you think.  Now back to your post: you said freedoms can be removed again if the pandemic is used as a precedent.  I'm asking for an example of why/how that would happen.  Got anything ?

We currently have a return to carding, entry of homes without warrants, firings for legal behaviour due to public shaming in government organizations.  Get on the wrong end of government politically, upset the wrong compliance officer, and face arbitrary enforcement.  Perhaps we see restrictions on auto use/movement, freedom of association, size of gatherings, stay at home orders, etc in the name of "climate/health and public safety emergencies.  It's clearly doable and would be supported by some posters on this site.

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21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We currently have a return to carding, entry of homes without warrants, firings for legal behaviour due to public shaming in government organizations.  Get on the wrong end of government politically, upset the wrong compliance officer, and face arbitrary enforcement.  Perhaps we see restrictions on auto use/movement, freedom of association, size of gatherings, stay at home orders, etc in the name of "climate/health and public safety emergencies.  It's clearly doable and would be supported by some posters on this site.

Not really.  And you didn't answer my questions in 1.

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17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Once precedents are set for the removal of liberties they can be removed again.  Be careful what you support.  

Yeah, pretty sure similar objections were raised when mandated seat belt use was introduced.  Its a "removal of our liberties" that's never gone away; mask use, curfews and shutdowns will all end, unlike seat belt laws.   

Its hard to imagine what benefit the government would gain by keeping people masked and businesses shut once the pandemic ends.  Maybe you could explain that part.

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On 1/13/2021 at 2:59 AM, Michael Hardner said:

You have seen the numbers?

It's a miracle! . . . . . . . cancer, respiratory disease, heart failure, etc.  have all been cured.  They're not in the stats anymore.  We can all hide behind the couch and tease the cat . . . until 'our leaders' can direct us to peek out the back door and squint in the sunshine . . . . 

Mike, have you seen the numbers?  Get approval from 'your' leader before you attempt an answer.

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16 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

It's a miracle! . . . . . . . cancer, respiratory disease, heart failure, etc.  have all been cured.  They're not in the stats anymore.  We can all hide behind the couch and tease the cat . . . until 'our leaders' can direct us to peek out the back door and squint in the sunshine . . . . 

Mike, have you seen the numbers?  Get approval from 'your' leader before you attempt an answer.

Provisional data on causes of death, January to April 2019 and January to April 2020.

 

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16 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/01/14/police-do-not-have-power-to-stop-drivers-to-enforce-new-stay-at-home-order-ontario-tells-police-chiefs.html

 

As a precaution my employer gave everyone a roe letter to show police just in case.  I'd suggest everyone to carry a copy of a recent pay stub as well.  

Stopped at check-points and road-blocks . . . . . show papers.  Gunpoint?  Police State?  Canada?

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12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We currently have a return to carding, entry of homes without warrants, firings for legal behaviour due to public shaming in government organizations.  Get on the wrong end of government politically, upset the wrong compliance officer, and face arbitrary enforcement.  Perhaps we see restrictions on auto use/movement, freedom of association, size of gatherings, stay at home orders, etc in the name of "climate/health and public safety emergencies.  It's clearly doable and would be supported by some posters on this site.

I don't think it is the cause for these actions, rather I defer to human stupidity- the one constant we can hold onto and believe in, in most any circumstance.

But that does not mean there are no "forces" who would take advantage of the situation for their own purpose, whether it be economics or environmental. That to me is not even a controversial idea. Yes they would.

Mr. Trudeau let the cat out of the bag when he said- "Maybe it's an opportunity for 'The Great Reset'.

Edited by OftenWrong
sticky, sticky keys
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On 1/14/2021 at 2:03 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Once precedents are set for the removal of liberties they can be removed again.  Be careful what you support.  

I agree with this caution.   As I believe I mentioned in some other related post to this topic, suspension of freedoms should only be possible in a declared emergency, war, etc. i.e. the kind of thing that a PM or Premier alone could never declare, but would require some VERY specific terms and parliamentary vote to declare.   Of course, since we don't have recall, that is still a bit problematic, but until we learn to change from rule-by-special-interest to actual representative democracy in our form(s) of government, it's the best we can do.

I can support travel restrictions in the case of pandemic, I think even you would have to admit for rather obvious reasons.  But, I sure don't take the issue of suspending personal rights and freedoms lightly.

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On 1/12/2021 at 10:16 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Do you think the pandemic is being used as an excuse to restrict the actions of the population for other reasons?

No.   But then Trump claimed his election was rigged.  Everyone can claim whatever they wish.

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14 hours ago, cougar said:

No.   But then Trump claimed his election was rigged.  Everyone can claim whatever they wish.

You illustrated my point in another thread that there are many people like you who like the restrictions for reasons other than fighting the pandemic.  

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You illustrated my point in another thread that there are many people like you who like the restrictions for reasons other than fighting the pandemic.  

You start a subject and when the going gets tough, slide on a tangent.

You asked what people believe; I told you, I do not believe the restrictions have any secret agenda.

Now you tell me I like the secret agenda the restrictions have........

There are things I like that I will not deny.  I like that there are less planes in the sky and less noise and pollution.  I like it that the economy cannot be brought up to its pre-covid levels.  Growth, expansion and environmental degradation are scary - you see that manifest in floods, incessant rains, wild fires, hurricanes and other kinds of extremities.  I like that the movement of people is somewhat restricted so they do not do further damage.

On the flip side of the coin, I was supposed to take a trip across the ocean to see my aging parents - haven't been back in 10 years.  Not sure how and when this can happen again.

So, no need to get overly excited and to try to score a victory.  We are all losers one way or another.

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1 minute ago, cougar said:

You start a subject and when the going gets tough, slide on a tangent.

You asked what people believe; I told you, I do not believe the restrictions have any secret agenda.

Now you tell me I like the secret agenda the restrictions have........

There are things I like that I will not deny.  I like that there are less planes in the sky and less noise and pollution.  I like it that the economy cannot be brought up to its pre-covid levels.  Growth, expansion and environmental degradation are scary - you see that manifest in floods, incessant rains, wild fires, hurricanes and other kinds of extremities.  I like that the movement of people is somewhat restricted so they do not do further damage.

On the flip side of the coin, I was supposed to take a trip across the ocean to see my aging parents - haven't been back in 10 years.  Not sure how and when this can happen again.

So, no need to get overly excited and to try to score a victory.  We are all losers one way or another.

My thread asked a question.  It didn't make an assertion.  I'm glad that at the very least you see how your appreciation/support for the restrictions because of your other "environmental" concerns could strip away the things you value.

The danger of admiring the kinds of totalitarian policies that radically reduce viral spread is that they radically reduce many other things that we need and value as humans.  Without an accounting of how those restrictions are raising non-Covid death rates and hurting people, there can be no true accounting of the value of having so many restrictions versus not having them.   Be careful what you wish for.

 

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