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Just so that there are fewer amazing (last-minute) discoveries for our esteemed public experts, here's some questions - and hopefully, well in advance of the block "this is still oh so new to us but we're trying...." response.

As everyone (should) know by now, not all vaccines are equal. For example, some vaccines are proving less effective against new strains. South Africa temporarily suspended rollout of Astra-Zeneca vaccine as it has shown limited efficacy against the dominant strain. That of course was South Africa but how certain can one be that Health Canada would do the same? (see e.g. "travel from Wuhan ...").

Question 1: Will citizens know in advance what vaccine they're booked with, and be able to chose the type they prefer?

Question 2: Should the vaccination plan, including the details like geographic coverage and vaccine type(s) be made public, and maintained current?

Or what if we discovered, some months later and only thanks to investigative prowess of CBC that entirely by chance and confluence of constellations MPs, GGs, CEO, board and family members etc were given one (or two) particular types, and everyone else, the regular folk, everything else? Let's try to remember that all vaccines are procured with funds from the public budget.

Question 3 (on the matter of  amazing discoveries): what does "approval" mean in this situation, if the time from the approval to application can be up to a year, or longer?

One would think that someone must be thinking about this (and looking too), but then how can one be sure? (see "travel from Wuhan...")

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1. If there was sufficient supply your family doctor would decide what kind of vaccine you should receive. But since the supply shortage, the government will jab any vaccine they could get into your arm regardless whether it would fit your physical and health conditions or not....ūüôĄ

2. The wealthy and powerful always have more choice than common people. After last year Trump's bizarre covid infection and rapid recovery story, my wife came out a conspiracy theory that Trump wasn't infected by Covid-19 virus but was secretly ejected with Chinese inactive vaccine. The active ingredient of an inactive vaccine is dead virus. When it is injected into human body, the recipient will be tested positive science it has the antigen in its blood. But since dead virus can't duplicate, they will be neutralized shortly after the recipient's body begins to produce antibody and will no longer be tested positive a few days later. The true infected patient usually needs far more time to recover since the virus still duplicate even the body begins to generate antibody. The result won't turn to negative until the antibody generation enters "mass production" phase, which usually needs many weeks or even many months. 

I usually hate conspiracy theory, but I have to admit her theory sounds. Trump had motive to be vaccinated before began his election campaign because he didn't want to wear mask to tarnish his tough man image before his supporters, and then not like US, UK and Russia, Chinese inactive vaccines were tested in many foreign countries like Brazil and UAE, where Trump's friends were more easy to lay their hands on these vaccines.

3. "Approval" means if China or Russia do something which the Western countries haven't do it before, it is an unproven method to deal with the covid-19. For example:

After their vaccines passed phase II clinic trial, which means the safety of the vaccines have generally been proven but the effectiveness hasn't been proven yet, China and Russia began to use their vaccine on high-risk group populations like doctors and nurses under emergency use. Their logic is simple: even if these vaccines not work, they won't cause more harm than not using them since phase II clinic trials have showed they are generally safe; but if they works, they will save many lives.

Since Western countries didn't think this way, the western media immediately began to attack Russia and China "using unproven vaccine" on people.

But.....but recently, due to some bad planning and management, many recipients in Western countries have found there are no vaccine for the second shot after they received the first one, so the authorities tell them they can wait longer than "proven" 4 weeks interval---like to extend the interval to 6 weeks to many months, or use other vaccine instead, like the first shot is Moderna and the second they give you an Oxford....

My question is: had¬†these western governments proven these methods before to use¬†them on the general public?ūüėú

And where are these so-called independent Western mainstream media?ūüėā¬†

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9 hours ago, xul said:

3. "Approval" means if China or Russia do something which the Western countries haven't do it before, it is an unproven method to deal with the covid-19. For example:

On this point, one needs to ask a very simple question: is there any way to verify, even theoretically but independently the claims (any claims) produced by or approved by governments in these, and other similar countries? The problem is of course, that the harder it becomes to obtain answers to valid and reasonable questions in this country, the closer it drifts in essence if not high words on democracy, to those aforementioned.

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On 2/8/2021 at 8:16 AM, myata said:

On this point, one needs to ask a very simple question: is there any way to verify, even theoretically but independently the claims (any claims) produced by or approved by governments in these, and other similar countries? The problem is of course, that the harder it becomes to obtain answers to valid and reasonable questions in this country, the closer it drifts in essence if not high words on democracy, to those aforementioned.

The so-called independent evaluation is myth. For example: If you want to buy a F-35, how could you find an independent expert who knows F-35 better than those who work for Lockheed Martin?

If you were a Canadian expert on vaccinology, before you decided to bad-mouth Pfizer's or Moderna's vaccine, should you consider that maybe someday you had to work for them when Canadian government sold your company or department to US just like they sold Bombardier C Series to Airbus? 

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33 minutes ago, xul said:

The so-called independent evaluation is myth. For example: If you want to buy a F-35, how could you find an independent expert who knows F-35 better than those who work for Lockheed Martin...

For me, there's no question: I like that myth better than the best and warmest care of the never-ending Politburo.

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49 minutes ago, myata said:

For me, there's no question: I like that myth better than the best and warmest care of the never-ending Politburo.

Putting¬†belief over logic......this is why God has abandoned his believers-----he built hundreds $ worth CPUs¬†in their head, but they only¬†use them¬†to record what holy books tell them like¬†$5 worth USB thumb drives. What disappointing creations.¬†ūüėú

 

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4 hours ago, xul said:

Putting belief over logic......

Are you trying to say that worshiping Politburo blindly and unreservedly (otherwise one will need something independent: sources of information; checks and balances; laws and courts etc) is anyhow more logical than an old scripture?

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If you take in idea of someone or something (like politburo, God, government, media, your professor, your book, "independent source of information" or your dad...etc.) blindly without any your own thinking, you are worship someone or something. 

God gives you a brain to think, not just take in information from so-called independent sources to store them like cheap a USB thumb drive. You need to do analysis to any information, regardless it from dependent or independent source, before taking it in.

Take Chinese vaccines for example:

After seeing¬†so many countries buying Chinese vaccines(showed in video below), my analysis is that I could hardly believe that all of these countries' doctors and scientists are fooled by CCP politburo and suggest their governments to spend hundreds millions $ to buy¬†so-called¬†"unproven" Chinese vaccine....ūüėõ

The fact that hundreds of millions foreigners receive these vaccine itself is the prove that their safety and effectiveness since CCP's politburo has no control over these counties' people's mouths. If there were some people died or got seriously ill after being vaccinated by Chinese vaccine, we would see it on VOA, BBC, CNN, FOX.....

Serbia:

UAE:

Indonesia:

Zimbabwe:

Parkistan:

Hungary:

Colombia:

Turkey:

Brizal:

Thai:

Egypt:

Philippines:

Seychelle:

 

Equatorial Guinea:

Congo Republic

......

 

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I bet most Canadians, Americans....have never known that Chinese vaccine makers have sold their vaccines to dozens of countries in the world because their so-called independent mainstream media don't meant them to see these, which would definitely raise doubts to the effectiveness of the authority and the system. Controlling public to access unfavorable information to keep the system safe isn't the exclusive patent of dictatorship.....

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5 hours ago, xul said:

I bet most Canadians, Americans....have never known that Chinese vaccine makers have sold their vaccines to dozens of countries in the world because their so-called independent mainstream media don't meant them to see these....

 

You would lose that bet....

 

Quote

Chinese Covid-19 vaccine far less effective than initially claimed in Brazil, sparking concerns

...Sinovac has signed deals to provide 46 million doses of its Covid-19 vaccine to Brazil, 50 million doses to Turkey and 7.5 million doses to Hong Kong. It'll also supply 40 million doses of vaccine bulk -- the vaccine concentrate before it is divided into vials -- to Indonesia for local production.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/asia/sinovac-covid-vaccine-efficacy-intl-hnk/index.html

 

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And so, as Health Canada is preparing to approve Astra-Zeneca-Oxford vaccine that has shown limited efficacy against some novel strains, how do we ensure that the vaccines are distributed fairly and equitably? In my view this is a fair question and the time to answer it is right now. I'd like, for my fellow regular citizens and myself to have the same access to the same quality and efficiency products, procured at public expense, as MPs and GGs and the board and family. While this is still a democracy of course.

Without full transparency in this matter I have little trust that the system will perform as it declares to. We need public open data and statistics: which vaccines are delivered where? One which ones politicians and other public managers got.

Edited by myata
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22 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You would lose that bet....

 

 

I bet the majority of western people don't know that Chinese "unproven" vaccines have been sold to dozens of countries worldwide. You told me I would lose the bet because a Chinese inactive vaccine showed¬†less effective than US mRNA vaccines...ūüėú

For you information, inactive vaccines are theoretically meant to less effective than mRNA vaccines because mRNA can get into your cells and trigger both cellular immunity and humoral immunity, but inactive vaccines only count on humoral immunity since they are dead virus which couldn't get inside your cells. 

But effectiveness is only one factor to evaluate the worthiness of a vaccine. Inactive vaccines can be stored in normal fridge temperature, which give them advantage on storage and transportation. This is why there are so many countries buying these inactive vaccines. Since the dead virus can't get into your cells, inactive vaccines are supposed to have less side effectiveness. Millions worldwide have been injected these vaccines, no serious side effect being reported yet. mRNA on the other hand....though serious side effects are rare, but still lots of people are afraid of it and reluctant to take the shots:

 

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22 minutes ago, xul said:

I bet the majority of western people don't know that Chinese "unproven" vaccines have been sold to dozens of countries worldwide.

 

You make a lot of bets...do you also bet that a lot of Chinese don't know that proven western vaccines have been sold to many nations around the world ?

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8 hours ago, myata said:

And so, as Health Canada is preparing to approve Astra-Zeneca-Oxford vaccine that has shown limited efficacy against some novel strains, how do we ensure that the vaccines are distributed fairly and equitably? In my view this is a fair question and the time to answer it is right now. I'd like, for my fellow regular citizens and myself to have the same access to the same quality and efficiency products, procured at public expense, as MPs and GGs and the board and family. While this is still a democracy of course.

Without full transparency in this matter I have little trust that the system will perform as it declares to. We need public open data and statistics: which vaccines are delivered where? One which ones politicians and other public managers got.

You sounds like there were many vaccine makers waiting in queue to sell their vaccines to Canada so Canadian could be a little picky....

But in reality:

India to ‚Äėdo its best‚Äô to get coronavirus vaccines to Canada, PM Modi tells Trudeau

Now Trudeau is begging India to sell vaccine to Canada. He forgets weeks ago, he angered Modi by expressing support to Indian farmers who rioted against Modi's new farm acts.

Quote

Indian¬†Prime Minister Narendra Modi¬†says his country ‚Äúwill do its best‚ÄĚ to help Canada get¬†COVID-19 vaccines¬†but stopped short of making any specific guarantee that India would ship doses to Canada.

 

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56 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You make a lot of bets...do you also bet that a lot of Chinese don't know that proven western vaccines have been sold to many nations around the world ?

China has never been as such small mind as US government and media. If you knew a Chinese private company bought the right of selling BioNTech vaccine in China before Pfizer bought it, you would not bet.

BioNTech, Fosun Pharma initiate Covid-19 vaccine candidate trial in China

There is a real story which sounds like a joke. The Taiwanese separatist President¬†vowed to ban¬†any Chinese vaccines in Taiwan and told her voters that¬†she would buy vaccines from US. But when she approached Pfizer, Pfizer told her that¬†it couldn't sell Pfizer vaccine to Taiwan since Fosun Pharma had already bought the right of selling BioNTech vaccine in Chinese market from BioNTech,¬† and Taiwan was include in Chinese market.ūüėõ¬†Now she has to pay extra money to Pfizer so Pfizer could pay Fosun Pharma as compensation, and She still need to wait in queue until¬†all her American masters get shots first.¬†

And if you knew where the active ingredients of Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine are made.....

 

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1 hour ago, xul said:

China has never been as such small mind as US government and media.

 

Sure...that's why the CPC exercises so much control over media in China...a very big mind for total control.   Canada foolishly partnered with China for vaccine development and manufacturing, but the CanSino fiasco bit Trudeau right in the ass.   So Canada turned to the Americans and British instead.

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5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure...that's why the CPC exercises so much control over media in China...a very big mind for total control.   Canada foolishly partnered with China for vaccine development and manufacturing, but the CanSino fiasco bit Trudeau right in the ass.   So Canada turned to the Americans and British instead.

Trying to translate this to common language, the world-famous Canadian bureaucracy knew that there was no chance of it delivering anything in the way practical, working solutions in less than a couple of decades (see SARS-1, zero results). So it decided to save precious taxpayer dollars first (by gambling) and then that didn't work, overspend everybody in the world procuring the most vaccines ever per capita. On paper, of course - how else? And now the time to turn to important business, preachings on following the daily rules and expert lecturing in it together.

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To clarify: the vulnerable groups and those who care for them, hospital workers and others must get it first and whatever is best.

And then the buck stops. This one issue will show us very clearly what we are: still a democracy or already some of a feudal quasiocracy? Are all citizens still equal in the access to quality and effective care at public cost, or some are more equal than others? Let's see it. I'm curious as you are, and the answer is in the air.

Some vaccines offer just better than nothing, plus the sense of satisfaction in the government report of 90% vaccination, and sure, WHO.

Others provide 95% protection against all forms and close to 100% - against more severe ones.

These aren't the same, don't mind the media. And we need to be certain, by seeing it, not hearing that there's a fair and equitable process of distributing these products.

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5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure...that's why the CPC exercises so much control over media in China...a very big mind for total control.   Canada foolishly partnered with China for vaccine development and manufacturing, but the CanSino fiasco bit Trudeau right in the ass.   So Canada turned to the Americans and British instead.

If you read my reply to myata you would know Trudeau turned to India for help since currently there is no help from US and UK...

I remember I told you last year that Cansino was a private company. 3 of 4 founders of the company are Canadian citizens and another one is a Canadian PR. The company raises money from HK stock market and invests heavily on dozens of vaccines but none of them have been approved to sell in Chinese market yet. Its Ad5-nCoV vaccine is developed by its partner Dr. Chen Wei's team who work for the Academy of Military Medical Science of PLA, which means at least part of the funds to develop the vaccine are from the government so it isn't up to Cansino to give its intellectual property away to a foreign countries.

A total control doesn't mean it has better controlling effectiveness than a smart partial control. Local anesthesia sometimes is more deceiving than general anesthesia, which means you think you are conscious and know what's going on in your body but actually feel nothing when the surgeon cuts a big piece of flesh off you back....

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5 hours ago, xul said:

If you read my reply to myata you would know Trudeau turned to India for help since currently there is no help from US and UK...

 

Wrong again...after China failed for Trudeau, Canada entered into contracts with British, American, German, and other western sources.   The Canadian vaccines that are manufactured in Europe for Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna are transported through American distribution channels (UPS, FedEx) in the United States.

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Canadian story vs. Britain, US, UK, India and so on stories is that of a bureaucracy talking about national interests rather than, and in place of implementing practical and effective plan to uphold them. And this country's bureaucracy has been great at that.

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The situation offers an unprecedented opportunity to look in the mirror and get an accurate and complete answer: what we are? Are we still fair and equitable? How much are we still a democracy, and how - democratic-looking aristocracy?

It can be known and seen simply by comparing two numbers: the fraction of the general population vaccinated with more effective types of vaccines; and a similar fraction of the public administration, minus frontline workers.

I don't believe it would be possible to make the distribution fully equitable there's just too many factors: main residence, work place, temporary residence, get away residence, family residence, save precious vials not to go to waste reason and other reasons. But we can find out and see, if we're interested.

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