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Capitol riots and the future of Canadian democracy


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2 hours ago, GrittyLeftist said:

Anyone following Trump is an extreme right winger - where else on the spectrum could they possible be located?  Having read that article, it does not claim that anyone on the left or the center helped storm the capitol building.  

 

I can't wade through the rest of your editorial without stopping first at your universal generalization about Trump supporters or even the possibility that there may be some who attended a march on the Capitol who don't buy into all of the BS served up by CNN and other organs of liberal elitists who decided that everything bad can be hung around Donald Trump without anyone else being held even partially responsible. 

A real, full investigation of the Jan.6 debacle will likely indicate that there was a hardcore of rightwing revolutionaries in the lead...many having military and/or policing experience, who had drawn up elaborate plans for how to conduct an invasion of the Capitol Building with a small, aggressive force equipped to seek out and take hostages inside. The fact that they were provided maps locating some of the important offices of senators and lower house reps, as well as some details on the schedule for that day, really needs to be opened up!  But, how many of the marchers, including those going up and easily allowed to enter the building by likely collaborating Capitol Police were really part of a revolutionary plot?

Just sayin, if I was a plotter organizing a takeover, and was looking to add a few recruits before going in, the last guy I would want with me would be Q-Shaman! Except possibly as a distraction or decoy!  Nevertheless, as it stands now, that buffoon could end up with as many or more years behind bars as anyone involved....including  those who brought zip cuffs with them.

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On 2/20/2021 at 6:46 PM, myata said:

Are we certain of that though? How many smaller places went into disarray when the main employer closed? The problem with fisheries caused pain in the Atlantics for decades. And that's with all the social nets and what if they weren't there? Watch your family starve or work for pennies? Or get paid for bringing stuff that gives temporary relief from all troubles into the community? Or... sure we want to go there?

And the Army, with all respect, is paid for from the same public purse. And what if we woke up to find it empty one day?

I've had a strained relationship with an old high school buddy of mine who became career Armed Forces until  he retired and took on regular work to add to his pension.  Seems he is full of contradictions as he gets older. He is full of scorn for everyone he considers a bum, but careful to keep his own earnings below a point where he ends up paying more income tax! Somehow that's different than someone on social assistance not wanting their benefits removed as they're counted against earned income! 

When we were young, we were at the crest of a boomer population entering the workforce all at once and having to deal with low wages and unemployment. When we did militia training at the end of high school, he decided army life was for him/while I decided there was no way in hell I would ever want to be a soldier....wartime or peacetime! So, I knocked around and floundered well into my 20's, never making a lot of money until I was close to 30. Found college a waste of time.....glad it was cheap back then though! I appreciated my elective classes more than the accounting and business classes I was supposed to be shaping a career from. 

And today, I avoided the temptation to criticize and condemn my youngest son when he struggled aimlessly after leaving school, even though he got into the drug experimentation that I avoided or was not drawn towards. I just had to hope that his intelligence and social skills would be enough to help him find good-paying work that he enjoyed (how few times that is mentioned!) and paid decent money. And yet he's still living at home, because rent in a new realm where $800,000 houses drives up rental accommodations past the point where $24.00 per hour still isn't enough to have a one bedroom apartment. As soon as he gets a real serious girlfriend...who's already calculated that she needs a boyfriend with a good, steady job before she can finally leave home.........well, let's say I'm just hoping he's saving some of his money now!

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7 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

One question: Are "lazy" people happy? Yes, or if not, why not? Why aren't they enjoying "taking advantage" of income support or programs created for low income people. 

My estimation would be someone's income would have to be pretty low, if it's a net benefit for them to quit work for CERB, UI or welfare...which leads me to ask why employers can't pay living wages for work that may be considered entry level and lacking prestige, but someone has to do it nevertheless, or the business owner has to either pay more money or improve working conditions (why is that option so rarely mentioned?).

 So, rightwing thinking is to condemn those at the bottom of the economic hierarchy instead of asking why they are there, let alone why a handful like McCains and Irvings or other rich east coast families became superrich. If someone frames economic success or failure as 100% due to individual strengths and weaknesses, then there is no other option for processing the predicament we are all faced with today, which I will claim shows clearly the failure of relying on capitalism far too long!

An economic system that is dependent on continuous growth, can only turn increasingly ruthless and psychotic, devouring itself when there are no easier ways of making a profit from investment. As time goes on, more and more people start asking hard questions about the system that rules over us and if we have the time, how does it succeed in maintaining control when, as Marx noted 150 years ago, there are many times more of us than there are of them. Playing identity politics is a place to start, but it's not just about race, ethnicity or place of origin, blaming the poor for their poverty, their high levels of depression and other mental illness.

There's also the public shaming of people who end up drug-dependent and unlikely to find gainful employment or being able to hold down a job, in a typical non-union workplace where an employer can hire and fire at will with no explanation or recompense. If we have an explanation that a civil society should be striving for full employment (recognizing that there is a 2 to 3% who can be considered unemployable because of a range of issues). IF the ruthless rightwing approach to dealing with the 'dependent' unemployables is followed, then leaving them on the streets to die of exposure is an acceptable course of action. If you are a socialist or follow actual Christian moral principles, then such these 'mora hazard' arguments against providing real universal programs aren't justifiable!

 

1. Are you saying that if your happy it is ok to game the system , while most of Canadians have to work hard for what we have. How do we explain those people who have been on welfare for entire generations, gran parents, father , mothers and now their kids... What i'm saying is this, a huge number are gaming the system, to lazy to change their lot in life, why work when they can stay at home and do F*** all. Are they happy I'm going out on a ledge here and say yes they are, if they were unhappy they would have made another choice like working...

2. Well the number being thrown around for people between the ages of 14 and 17 years old collecting CERB was 700,000. Of those 350,000 had family incomes of over 100,000 ... Companies here can't hire in those age groups because if they earn more than a certain amount their CERB gets cut. so they are refusing to work....they also said that 8.5 million Canadians are tasking the CERB odds are most of them are ligit, let go from there jobs but alot of them are gaming the system, so many were afraid they would have to pay it all back, until Justin gave everyone a X-mas present...

3. Relying on capitalism to long, thats funney shit right there.... I guess you have never been in a communist country, or one run by dictatorship. you should try it for a while, and I'll bet my retirement savings you won't be complaining to long about western democracy. Shit this is the new thing now, I am depressed, or suffer from mental health issues... give me a break want to earn the right to whine then come up with a valid reason,

I meet a little girl in Afghanistan who had her mother raped in front of her, her father killed and her hands cut off all for the crime of going to school, that girl fights for women's rights every day in a strictly mens world where she is consider nothing more than property ... she has earned the right to complain but she does not, she works on changing her world...and she is doing that through choices she makes everyday...

4. It is probable to late to say i don't want to sound like a dick, but tell me why i should give a shit because someone else makes a bad decision, and now relies on the public for survival, but refuses to make choices to change their life's for the better.  better yet why does the public not force those decisions on them.

Now we are calling it ruthless right wing approach, and i have no christen values. i wonder how many leftists out there have walked by a drug addict to high to do anything, or even offered to buy them something to eat, i see it all the time downtown , everyone is walking by and just looking the other way, and i can tell you this we are not all ruthless right wingers, since the majority of fredricton are from the green party.... how many have you helped out before judging me or right wingers...

Everyone is reasonable for their own choices and actions. And if they throw up their hands and say I can't or won't then someone should be able to do it for them. This entire issue is not going to change until the addicts see they can't get anything from it. 

 

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

1. Are you saying that if your happy it is ok to game the system , while most of Canadians have to work hard for what we have. How do we explain those people who have been on welfare for entire generations, gran parents, father , mothers and now their kids... What i'm saying is this, a huge number are gaming the system, to lazy to change their lot in life, why work when they can stay at home and do F*** all. Are they happy I'm going out on a ledge here and say yes they are, if they were unhappy they would have made another choice like working...

 

So, your economic analysis is all based on grievance against those you perceive may be free riders? And that is after assuming you can get inside their heads to decide what they are thinking. 

I would say we should all put a shoulder to the wheel to get this cart out of the ditch we're in. But, even if everyone contributes equal effort, some people's efforts are greater than others. Should those who are bigger and stronger hold back a little and make the weaker among us strain harder to force them to make equal contributions?

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2. Well the number being thrown around for people between the ages of 14 and 17 years old collecting CERB was 700,000. Of those 350,000 had family incomes of over 100,000 ... Companies here can't hire in those age groups because if they earn more than a certain amount their CERB gets cut. so they are refusing to work....they also said that 8.5 million Canadians are tasking the CERB odds are most of them are ligit, let go from there jobs but alot of them are gaming the system, so many were afraid they would have to pay it all back, until Justin gave everyone a X-mas present...

So, isn't the problem how the government calculates CERB payments? Seems they should easily be able to set up a more graduated payment scale that wouldn't penalize someone for their earnings. What if someone is getting paid well, but their job is only temporary? Do they have to keep reapplying for CERB? A lot of people you're pointing fingers at and declaring lazy and unproductive may just be trying to avoid getting cut off benefits they may still need if whatever job they're going to work at is taken away or the employer disappears.

I don't fault JT on this one. I wasn't paying too close attention to how CERB was playing out, except stories of all the chaos, fraud and potential fraud involved in setting it up. BUT looking at the disaster south of our border, with skyrocketing crime rates already making cities unlivable, and homeless people dying of exposure every time the temperature drops, would you rather have an imperfect system of benefits for those out of work because of a pandemic, or apply the US survival of the fittest strategy, which for some reasons, determines the already rich to be the most fit! 

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3. Relying on capitalism to long, thats funney shit right there.... I guess you have never been in a communist country, or one run by dictatorship. you should try it for a while, and I'll bet my retirement savings you won't be complaining to long about western democracy. Shit this is the new thing now, I am depressed, or suffer from mental health issues... give me a break want to earn the right to whine then come up with a valid reason,

I meet a little girl in Afghanistan who had her mother raped in front of her, her father killed and her hands cut off all for the crime of going to school, that girl fights for women's rights every day in a strictly mens world where she is consider nothing more than property ... she has earned the right to complain but she does not, she works on changing her world...and she is doing that through choices she makes everyday...

 

Right, except if you are including Cuba on your shrunken communist list, I've gone to Cuba several times and prefer Cuba much more than the Mexican and other Caribbean resorts; because, except for the extremely expensive ones in Cancun, Aruba or the Bahamas, the beach resorts in Cuba are much safer, even without security guards with automatic weapons standing guard everywhere!

The worst thing about vacationing in Cuba is that you can't avoid being pestered by panhandlers looking for US dollars. Even some resort employees will risk asking to be paid in dollars for extra services...even though they can be fired for doing so. On the plus side, the cities - including Havana - are not teeming with urban poor living on the brink of starvation...as every other major city is dealing with today. A communist society has much less of a gap in incomes and living standards than the capitalism you celebrate - which allows a few to be worth billions while increasing numbers of people fall through the cracks. 

Since we've had a few Forces veterans apply for work in recent years and not last for long because of mental issues connected with depression or PTSD etc., I have to ask what your impression is of Canadian soldiers who can't cut it in civilian life after leaving the military? In the US, for all of the back-slapping they do every damn football game about "thanking our veterans," the largest single demographic among the homeless in the US are veterans from foreign wars, who returned, received some medical attention and no doubt a few too many prescriptions, and once their VA benefits are used up, they're kicked out the door and having flashbacks for the rest of their lives! It would be nice if "thanking our troops" included whatever assistance is needed by vets, but that isn't happening today!

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4. It is probable to late to say i don't want to sound like a dick, but tell me why i should give a shit because someone else makes a bad decision, and now relies on the public for survival, but refuses to make choices to change their life's for the better.  better yet why does the public not force those decisions on them.

Now we are calling it ruthless right wing approach, and i have no christen values. i wonder how many leftists out there have walked by a drug addict to high to do anything, or even offered to buy them something to eat, i see it all the time downtown , everyone is walking by and just looking the other way, and i can tell you this we are not all ruthless right wingers, since the majority of fredricton are from the green party.... how many have you helped out before judging me or right wingers...

Everyone is reasonable for their own choices and actions. And if they throw up their hands and say I can't or won't then someone should be able to do it for them. This entire issue is not going to change until the addicts see they can't get anything from it. 

 

What if you were the one who made the bad decision?? 

I prefer to offer food to the increasing numbers of panhandlers we're seeing these days( rather than money), but otherwise, I'll give them money, even if I know full well they'll try to buy drugs with it as soon as able! 

And my judgment of rightwingers is that I consider their arguments and type of thinking to be useful tools the ruling classes who have a boot on our necks can use against all of us when they feel they need to in the future.

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12 hours ago, Right To Left said:

I've had a strained relationship with an old high school buddy of mine who became career Armed Forces until  he retired and took on regular work to add to his pension.  Seems he is full of contradictions as he gets older. He is full of scorn for everyone he considers a bum, but careful to keep his own earnings below a point where he ends up paying more income tax! Somehow that's different than someone on social assistance not wanting their benefits removed as they're counted against earned income!

It is the 21st century now, there is barely any distance barriers and very smart people all around the globe ready to work long hours for pennies. Nothing is guaranteed, and we want to behave like those dinosaurs that merrily chewed on (few) remaining leaves not noticing that they are shrinking and disappearing.

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6 hours ago, myata said:

It is the 21st century now, there is barely any distance barriers and very smart people all around the globe ready to work long hours for pennies. Nothing is guaranteed, and we want to behave like those dinosaurs that merrily chewed on (few) remaining leaves not noticing that they are shrinking and disappearing.

And I would go out on a limb and venture to say that you're not one of the people  ready to work long hours for pennies! But, instead profit in some undisclosed way by having a globalized system that forces others to be turned into slave labour.

At one time, long long ago, that's why nations had tariffs and import duties to prevent bloodsucking leeches like you from profiting off the misery of others! And today, this is the people living in the 'under-developed' nations who being cleared off of common lands and left with one option to survive, and one option only: move into dirty, dangerous, already overcrowded city hellholes and compete with other desperate former farmers for sweatshop jobs, and try to earn enough to buy food at the local market...and hope it isn't tainted either! 

If it's a textile manufacturer, the t-shirts or shoes are being produced by a third party sweatshop operative, who produces brand name products for big name retail chains who don't want their names connected directly with the ways their imported products are made. And that brings us right back to tariffs and duties! If big capitalist leeches (and those down the chain who also profit) want to outsource manufacturing, they should pay for the money they saved by not hiring local workers!

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15 hours ago, Right To Left said:

So, your economic analysis is all based on grievance against those you perceive may be free riders? And that is after assuming you can get inside their heads to decide what they are thinking. 

I would say we should all put a shoulder to the wheel to get this cart out of the ditch we're in. But, even if everyone contributes equal effort, some people's efforts are greater than others. Should those who are bigger and stronger hold back a little and make the weaker among us strain harder to force them to make equal contributions?

 

Right, except if you are including Cuba on your shrunken communist list, I've gone to Cuba several times and prefer Cuba much more than the Mexican and other Caribbean resorts; because, except for the extremely expensive ones in Cancun, Aruba or the Bahamas, the beach resorts in Cuba are much safer, even without security guards with automatic weapons standing guard everywhere!

The worst thing about vacationing in Cuba is that you can't avoid being pestered by panhandlers looking for US dollars. Even some resort employees will risk asking to be paid in dollars for extra services...even though they can be fired for doing so. On the plus side, the cities - including Havana - are not teeming with urban poor living on the brink of starvation...as every other major city is dealing with today. A communist society has much less of a gap in incomes and living standards than the capitalism you celebrate - which allows a few to be worth billions while increasing numbers of people fall through the cracks. 

Since we've had a few Forces veterans apply for work in recent years and not last for long because of mental issues connected with depression or PTSD etc., I have to ask what your impression is of Canadian soldiers who can't cut it in civilian life after leaving the military? In the US, for all of the back-slapping they do every damn football game about "thanking our veterans," the largest single demographic among the homeless in the US are veterans from foreign wars, who returned, received some medical attention and no doubt a few too many prescriptions, and once their VA benefits are used up, they're kicked out the door and having flashbacks for the rest of their lives! It would be nice if "thanking our troops" included whatever assistance is needed by vets, but that isn't happening today!

What if you were the one who made the bad decision?? 

I prefer to offer food to the increasing numbers of panhandlers we're seeing these days( rather than money), but otherwise, I'll give them money, even if I know full well they'll try to buy drugs with it as soon as able! 

And my judgment of rightwingers is that I consider their arguments and type of thinking to be useful tools the ruling classes who have a boot on our necks can use against all of us when they feel they need to in the future.

1.  Like I said before i grew up on the poor side of the tracks, i grew up with people that gamed the system for all that is worth, including my sister who was on welfare for over 15 years, she was gaming the system because it is set up that way. Most Canadians work hard for everything they have, because they have pride in what they do, and they don't want a hand out if they don't need one, thinking they would be taking away from someone that may need it..... In the Maritimes this practice of gaming the system is a real problem, and the government is OK with it, you seem to be ok with it...after all it is not their money but taxpayers money, and I'll be damned if I'm going to feel sorry for calling them out on it. When they know damn well what they are doing, and to damn LAZY to contribute to anything....But hey I'm the asshole for working hard my entire life, contributing to our nation in a meaningful way...   

2. For the most part the majority of Canadians do put their shoulders into moving the cart forward, but in saying that there are lots of Canadians that are quit happy sitting on the cart watch the rest of us struggle... to those people i say F*** that get your ass down here and help or atleast try. We all get it some times everyone needs a helping hand, or a leg up from all of us, but others are just as happy to watch others do all the work.  

3. YA Cuba is really nice if your a tourist, which explains everything about why so many risk their lives to escape to the States... how do you explain that ? If living here is becoming an issue and your falling in love with how communisms treats it's citizens and how the grass may seem greener, then make a choice and do something about it, move there, try it for a year or so come back and tell us all how wonderful it is... Every shit hole I've traveled to while in the military has had a common theme they were a communist country, or run by a dictator, or terrorist...  

4. 

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Since we've had a few Forces veterans apply for work in recent years and not last for long because of mental issues connected with depression or PTSD etc., I have to ask what your impression is of Canadian soldiers who can't cut it in civilian life after leaving the military?

Not sure where your going with this question, I say that because I'm one of those guys, 3 tours in Bosnia,1 tour with MFO Sinai desert and 3 in Afghanistan as an Infantry soldier, i have had a few jobs after the military, and like you said did not stay employed at any of them longer than 3 years, and yes it all stemmed from my PTSD and depression, but mostly because of the lack of understanding about PTSD and its symptoms by my employers and co workers. and myself fro not understanding the symptoms either.   it's not contagious, and it is not permeant, with the proper treatment anyone can over come it, some in a few years while others can take much longer. Today I've learned to live with my ghosts, thanks to help from VAC and the OSI clinics. It was not that i could not handle a civilian job at the time, because they did not even compare in size or scope, complication, not to mention how dangerous it was..

The US has more governmental and private organization for their vets than Canada could ever dream of, their citizens stand firmly behind their vets... In Canada vets are still taking our government to court to win rights and benefits regular citizens already have, rights that were taken away by a simple piece of legislation, on a side note the opposition could have repelled this decision but chose not to, because at the time it saved 340 million dollars. there are vets who have to seek out medical assistance to prove to the government their legs or limbs have not grown back over the last year, or lose what ever benefits they have now... sounds retarded right, it happens every year in Canada.,.. " they are asking for more than we can afford right now" Justin is on a path to spend just over 400 billion dollars and not one cent has gone to our vets...

you bring up many valid points about the US vets, but here in Canada things are a lot less cheery, and for the majority of Canadians they are good with all of it, this is the message i hear loud and clear, most do not give a shit...these men and women have given much more than just service to their country, they have sacrificed time with family and children, they have come home to mental illness that claims their marriages, seeing their children, addiction to drugs and alcohol, homelessness, and then death or suicide. all of this is not new to Canadians , our military has the highest suicide rate in our nation, but no one cares.. we don't want your thanks, we wanted you to have our backs, nothing more. i guess it was way to much to ask for. 

5. I am no different than anyone else , and i have made my share of mistakes, the difference is i dusted myself off, learned from them and continued forward... like the majority of Canadians have done... 

6. I only give them food, more for my piece of mind, as i don't want that on my conscience in case they pass on while on the drugs my money help purchase.. So i take them to a restaurant and have a meal with them, so I'm not that heartless, I'm still a dick but not a heartless dick... 

7. I think that neither side has the monopoly on good ideas, right or left, Our government we have right now is the government the majority of Canadians want, in in my opinion the one they deserve, and if they burn it to the ground, then in those last moments we can take joy in punching a liberal in the throat. massive social programs are not going to be sustainable in the future considering debt load, "if we get a budget soon" something is going to have to give. or we could spend like it was 1999 and pass all this on to our kids....or go the route of Greece...

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21 hours ago, Right To Left said:

My estimation would be someone's income would have to be pretty low, if it's a net benefit for them to quit work for CERB, UI or welfare...which leads me to ask why employers can't pay living wages for work that may be considered entry level and lacking prestige, but someone has to do it nevertheless, or the business owner has to either pay more money or improve working conditions (why is that option so rarely mentioned?)

I think the short answer is: nobody is interested. One cannot dictate wages to private businesses other than the absolute minimum as it would upset the free market model. Public sector has become one giant corporation, that is incapable of meaningful change and does not like to change. And the number of those in-between just isn't sufficient for a significant change. So change became impossible in this environment. It's OK for the unions, departments, programs, etc, even private business to ask for more taxpayer dollars though for less than clear return. It just isn't called "welfare".

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