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Suffering is not a justification for assisted suicide


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On 2/10/2021 at 8:46 PM, blackbird said:

Another point I would add to this is that the Supreme Court speaking on this subject included a requirement that there be some consideration in the MAID to take into consideration those people who oppose MAID. 

You are opening an incredibly broad subject. 

First keep in mind that many of us have received an assisted prolonged life beyond what nature ever intended.  Many of us are either too old or too weak or too fat or too lazy or too handicapped to ever exist under normal circumstances in natural environments.  But we have been supported by our "humane" system, where the life of every wild animal is sacrificed to provide comfort to the old, lazy and ugly.   Even people born with two heads have more chances of survival than a normal healthy cougar for example.

And now we are discussing the cases of those same old sick people unable to fend for themselves reaching way beyond the limits of their natural lives and asking for death to reduce their pain and suffering and having the Supreme Court debate over years on the subject, of course on our tax money.

Quite perverse if you ask me.

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The only valid justification for assisted suicide is that someone wants it.  If they are lucky enough to find a medical professional willing to assist, that should be the end of it.

I don't honestly see the point of a life of constant, unending pain without hope of relief. The real problem is a lot of our governments are so determined to prevent people from taking too many d

You have to be careful though.  Somebody going through bad depression might want assisted suicide.  Depression is generally a temporary thing.  Killing people for temporary reasons is not a good polic

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

If it is not my life then who's is it? gods, the governments, who's ? who has the power to make those decisions or better yet do you think it is a mistake to allow someone the choice? 

If it is wrong to take ones life why is there no consequences to do so, why is there not a national government sponsored program to convince everyone that your choice is the only right choice, to suck it up , or my favorite,  Stop complaining , rub some dirt on it , get over it pussy, and live with the pain and suffering.... 

Canadians, politicians have known for decades that our palliative care system sucks, and have we done anything to correct that, no we have not, the only ones concerned are the people that it effects the rest of Canadians don't give a shit. I mean it has been months that the military uncovered what was wrong with out palliative care system, has the liberals stepped up try to change all of that. This is just another example of how the people and government just don't want to act.

So laying in bed with soiled underwear on, little to no medical care when needed, and to the outside world you have been warehoused to died, some stat on someone's profit Sheet ...if this has not spurred action by the people or government , then that says something about who we are as human beings... And Canadians thought to be nice and  polite are really just assholes willing to let this type of problem pass with out concern... 

 

 

 

Yes the government has failed miserably to take care of the old people in care homes. It is a complete disaster.  As far as the government is concerned, they are willing and ready to oblige the population with medical assistance in suicide.  It is far less expensive to help the people kill themselves at $400 a person than it is to provide proper palliative care which could cost tens of thousands of dollars a year.  The answer is not to cave in to the death culture but to demand and force the government to provide proper care for people or throw the government out.

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3 minutes ago, cougar said:

You are opening an incredibly broad subject. 

First keep in mind that many of us have received an assisted prolonged life beyond what nature ever intended.  Many of us are either too old or too weak or too fat or too lazy or too handicapped to ever exist under normal circumstances in natural environments.  But we have been supported by our "humane" system, where the life of every wild animal is sacrificed to provide comfort to the old, lazy and ugly.   Even people born with two heads have more chances of survival than a normal healthy cougar for example.

And now we are discussing the cases of those same old sick people unable to fend for themselves reaching way beyond the limits of their natural lives and asking for death to reduce their pain and suffering and having the Supreme Court debate over years on the subject, of course on our tax money.

Quite perverse if you ask me.

"quite perverse"   ...to take care of society's handicapped, ill and old people?  hmmm   The writer of Mein Kampf would probably agree with you.

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Just now, blackbird said:

Yes the government has failed miserably to take care of the old people in care homes. It is a complete disaster.  As far as the government is concerned, they are willing and ready to oblige the population with medical assistance in suicide.  It is far less expensive to help the people kill themselves at $400 a person than it is to provide proper palliative care which could cost tens of thousands of dollars a year.  The answer is not to cave in to the death culture but to demand and force the government to provide proper care for people or throw the government out.

It's not the government that failed, it's Canadians that have failed, the government does not take any action unless it will get them reelected, or the majority of Canadians get on board and put some pressure on the government , none of that has happened, because Canadians don't give a shit. There is nothing in it for them.

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12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"quite perverse"   ...to take care of society's handicapped, ill and old people?  hmmm   The writer of Mein Kampf would probably agree with you.

Yep, when you kill off the healthy wildlife able to provide for themselves only to extend more or less useless lives, it is perverse to the core!

Then you have developing countries with humans breeding like rabbits in them; populations kept somewhat in check as a result of diseases, hunger and war.  But we are the noble people who will bring medication, food and peace to help those nations get their populations out of control.  And to what end, if I may ask?????

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8 minutes ago, cougar said:

Yep, when you kill off the healthy wildlife able to provide for themselves only to extend more or less useless lives, it is perverse to the core!

Then you have developing countries with humans breeding like rabbits in them; populations kept somewhat in check as a result of diseases, hunger and war.  But we are the noble people who will bring medication, food and peace to help those nation get their populations out of control.  And to what end, if I may ask?????

I don't think you can compare humans with animals.  God has given man dominion over all animals.  This is why we eat animals, fish, and fowl.

"3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6  Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7  All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; {All…: Heb. Flocks and oxen all of them} 8  The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!" Psalm 8:3-9 KJB

As for your other point about breeding, people are free to have as many children as they wish.  Yes, there are diseases and wars in the world.   It is not a perfect world and never has been since the fall of man in the garden of Eden when Eve ate the forbidden fruit.  Man fell and the world became a corrupt, evil place.   However, in spite of that, God still commands man to love thy neighbour as himself.  So the first order is for one to take care of himself and his own family.  Since we have a government that is able to throw hundreds of billions of dollars out there to take care of people and since the governments in the country set up a public health care system, it should include care for the old, infirm, handicapped, and elderly.

 

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5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't think you can compare humans with animals.  God has given man dominion over all animals.  This is why we eat animals, fish, and fowl.

"3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6  Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7  All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; {All…: Heb. Flocks and oxen all of them} 8  The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!" Psalm 8:3-9 KJB

As for your other point about breeding, people are free to have as many children as they wish.  Yes, there are diseases and wars in the world.   It is not a perfect world and never has been since the fall of man in the garden of Eden when Eve ate the forbidden fruit.  Man fell and the world became a corrupt, evil place.   However, in spite of that, God still commands man to love thy neighbour as himself.  So the first order is for one to take care of himself and his own family.  Since we have a government that is able to throw hundreds of billions of dollars out there to take care of people and since the governments in the country set up a public health care system, it should include care for the old, infirm, handicapped, and elderly.

 

Animals eat animals, fish, and fowl. They'll eat us too, if we let them.

If you look at this issue through a religious lens, that's fair enough, but you then only have the right to control your own behaviour. 

You have no right to try and control anyone else's.  They probably don't share your beliefs.

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

But that's just your God.  What about the other Gods?  Hindus, for instance.  I can't imagine which one of them will be looking out for me in my final moments.  Or the Haida?  I lived in BC for a long time.  Maybe I come under them now.  Apparently they have two that might play a part.  Ta'xet and Tia.  One for peaceful death, one for violent death.  So if I'm in the hospital awaiting my helpful medical professional and her trusty syringe, Tia smiling benevolently upon me, Ta'xet is going to be secretly opening elevator doors when the elevator is on another floor in the hope I might need moving. 

Or, given my heritage, The Dagda.  (I had to look that one up.  See what you have wrought?)

All that said, the Bible is no authority.  Written by men long after any events that might have included what those at the time considered godly interventions, and changed over the years by revisions and translations, I would put no more stock in that book as an authority on how I should live my life and arrange my death than I would the Mabinogion.  And I'm not Welsh.

The Bible is the authority and there is only one God, the God who inspired men to write the Bible.  I cannot go into it all here because it would take forever.  But you can easily Google and read the evidence yourself if you are interested in finding out or at least weighing the evidence.

"There are many books today that claim to be the Word of God. The Koran, the Islam holy book, claims to be the Word of God. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God. The Hindus believe the Bhagavad Gita is the source of eternal truth. Karl Marx, with his atheistic worldview, claimed his writing, The Communist Manifesto, was the ultimate truth. We Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live by. How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? Can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God? The answer is yes."

Check this website called Evidence and Answers.

Authority of the Bible – Evidence and Answers

This site does not let me paste the URL here for some reason.  You would have to Google the words Authority of the Bible - Evidence and Answers and look for the website.

 

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10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Animals eat animals, fish, and fowl. They'll eat us too, if we let them.

If you look at this issue through a religious lens, that's fair enough, but you then only have the right to control your own behaviour. 

You have no right to try and control anyone else's.  They probably don't share your beliefs.

I replied above to your comments on the authority of the Bible and God.  I cannot control what other people do and never claimed to.  But everyone who wishes can express their opinions and beliefs in western democratic countries.  Secular humanists, Communists, Socialist, Capitalists, atheists, agnostics, liberals, conservatives, globalists, nationalists, and people with various religious beliefs all express their opinions and governments make the laws based on everyone's opinions and deciding from that.  

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5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Bible is the authority and there is only one God, the God who inspired men to write the Bible.

 

No, I gave the reasons in the post you quoted why the Bible is no authority on anything.  You, of course, are free to believe what you wish.  So are the people you quote as references.  It doesn't change anything.

That said, and back to the original point, you are free to live your life based on your beliefs, within the bounds of secular laws.  If you choose to make the Bible your guide, that is up to you and not something that concerns me.  Those who follow other paths do so as their choice, and such should not concern you.

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No, I gave the reasons in the post you quoted why the Bible is no authority on anything.  You, of course, are free to believe what you wish.  So are the people you quote as references.  It doesn't change anything.

That said, and back to the original point, you are free to live your life based on your beliefs, within the bounds of secular laws.  If you choose to make the Bible your guide, that is up to you and not something that concerns me.  Those who follow other paths do so as their choice, and such should not concern you.

I see you replied right away without reading anything of the reference I gave you which explains why the Bible is the word of God.  I gave you the information to look up.  It is up to you.  If you choose not to read it, that is entirely your choice.

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21 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Animals eat animals, fish, and fowl. They'll eat us too, if we let them.

If you look at this issue through a religious lens, that's fair enough, but you then only have the right to control your own behaviour. 

You have no right to try and control anyone else's.  They probably don't share your beliefs.

I don't "control" anyone.  That is your fiction.  You are free to believe what you wish.

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I see you replied right away without reading anything of the reference I gave you which explains why the Bible is the word of God.  I gave you the information to look up.  It is up to you.  If you choose not to read it, that is entirely your choice.

I know.  I have that choice.  This is not the first time this issue has come up on here, and it is not the first time such material has been presented.  Not only that, I am a Roman Catholic by birth and was taught mainly by nuns during my primary and secondary school years.

Nevertheless, knowing all that I do, I am now an atheist, and have been for many years. 

That said, there is still the unresolved issue of jurisdiction.  You are free to live your life based on your beliefs.  Why should I not be free to live my life based on mine?

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4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't "control" anyone.  That is your fiction.  You are free to believe what you wish.

Well, I said "try", but ok, fair enough.  Assisted suicide for those who choose it.  Natural death for those who don't.

Why are we arguing?

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Just now, Aristides said:

I believe I am an atheist, not certain because whether there is a god or not can't be physically proved either way, but that's what I believe.

There are probably quite a lot of definitions of the word.  I don't believe in a Supreme Being.  I can't prove that one doesn't exist. 

I believe far less in the notion that, if there is a Supreme Being, one of the established religions on the planet has got it right and all the others have got it wrong.

The hubris of man, or just the smarter ones figuring out a way to control the others for their benefit?  Beats me, but I'd bet on the latter.

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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Well, I said "try", but ok, fair enough.  Assisted suicide for those who choose it.  Natural death for those who don't.

Why are we arguing?

Of course you are free to live your life based on whatever laws allow you to do.  We are all free to agree or disagree with laws.  You want to know why I don't agree with assisted dying or more correctly suicide, I tried to explain.  If you want to know more about the reasons I gave you the references and site to find it.  It's up to you now.  Nothing really to argue about.  But it is fiction to say I control but your beliefs do not control.  Neither of us controls anything except our own lives.  But we could discuss it rationally, like why do claim to be an atheist?  Where do you think everything came from?

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6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I believe I am an atheist, not certain because whether there is a god or not can't be physically proved either way, but that's what I believe.

I realize there are a lot of atheists on these forums.  I have spoken with them for several years.  But I have never heard a rational explanation from one of them where the  creation came from if not from a Creator.

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Just now, blackbird said:

Of course you are free to live your life based on whatever laws allow you to do.  We are all free to agree or disagree with laws.  You want to know why I don't agree with assisted dying or more correctly suicide, I tried to explain.  If you want to know more about the reasons I gave you the references and site to find it.  It's up to you now.  Nothing really to argue about.  But it is fiction to say I control but your beliefs do not control.  Neither of us controls anything except our own lives.  But we could discuss it rationally, like why do claim to be an atheist?  Where do you think everything came from?

I didn't want to know why you didn't agree with assisted suicide.  That was established fairly early on in the thread.

We were arguing about whether or not people other than yourself should have the right to it. You haven't managed to make the point that they should not, beyond that supported by your religious beliefs.  Which are irrelevant when applied to anyone else.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I realize there are a lot of atheists on these forums.  I have spoken with them for several years.  But I have never heard a rational explanation from one of them where the  creation came from if not from a Creator.

I've never heard a rational explanation for a creator, other than that something was created.  That doesn't make the argument, I'm afraid.  It's all a perfectly natural accident.  This universe, and quite possibly, all the others.

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7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I realize there are a lot of atheists on these forums.  I have spoken with them for several years.  But I have never heard a rational explanation from one of them where the  creation came from if not from a Creator.

Well I've never heard a rational explanation from any religion so I guess we are even.

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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I didn't want to know why you didn't agree with assisted suicide.  That was established fairly early on in the thread.

We were arguing about whether or not people other than yourself should have the right to it. You haven't managed to make the point that they should not, beyond that supported by your religious beliefs.  Which are irrelevant when applied to anyone else.

I see my belief in the sanctity of human life is a valid opinion that the government should consider when making the laws.  It is the same reason we have laws against murder or stealing or anything else.  I don't control what other people do or have the right to do.  You seem to think my belief is directly denying the rights of other people, but yours is not.  Your view which you admit is based on atheism, actually doesn't fit in with western civilization's historic Judeo-Christian society.  You worry about your right to assisted dying, but the human rights which you enjoy in western society actually grew out of Judeo-Christian principles of respect for individual human life and dignity.  That is nonn-existent in Communist countries like China.  The individual has no human rights in such systems.

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12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I've never heard a rational explanation for a creator, other than that something was created.  That doesn't make the argument, I'm afraid.  It's all a perfectly natural accident.  This universe, and quite possibly, all the others.

The accident theory has been dismissed by many famous scientists  because it provides no explanation for the complexity of creation and life for example.  The claim of some kind of cosmic accident explains nothing really.  It doesn't even explain how the atomic particles and the laws of physics that govern their motions and actions came into existence.   The existence of a Creator who designed and created everything seems far more logical than to say it all came about by accident.  Even microscopic things like the genes are so complex that it is unimaginable that they just happened by accident.

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5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Well I've never heard a rational explanation from any religion so I guess we are even.

No, not really.  It is far more rational to believe the complex universe required an intelligent designer (God) to design and create it than to say it happened by itself, which makes no sense at all.  Some of the greatest scientists that ever lived will tell you that.

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