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Suffering is not a justification for assisted suicide


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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

The Bible has many predictions about the future that came to pass.  Like Isaiah ch53 predicted 700 years before it came to pass.  Hardly something mere men could predict.  Proof that it originated from God.

As bcsapper identified above, it will be pointless to continue along these lines with you.

My suggestion?  Jump off a bridge; if God exists he will save you!

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The only valid justification for assisted suicide is that someone wants it.  If they are lucky enough to find a medical professional willing to assist, that should be the end of it.

I don't honestly see the point of a life of constant, unending pain without hope of relief. The real problem is a lot of our governments are so determined to prevent people from taking too many d

You have to be careful though.  Somebody going through bad depression might want assisted suicide.  Depression is generally a temporary thing.  Killing people for temporary reasons is not a good polic

29 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

An irresponsible, thoughtless and dangerous suggestion.  

Its fine.  He will come back with a verse from the Bible that God does not allow fools to jump off bridges.;)

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11 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

An irresponsible, thoughtless and dangerous suggestion.  

You see.....He thanks you for your support because he isn't stupid enough to jump off the bridge putting his faith in God only.

But he likes bullshitting us with Bible verses and sending us to web pages where the existence of God can readily be confirmed.  ^_^

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On 2/14/2021 at 12:38 PM, blackbird said:

I am sorry you have a brother going through that.  You are correct in saying unless one is in the situation, they don't really know what it is like.  Hopefully the intravenous pain killers he is receiving are providing much-needed relief for him.  It naturally causes you and his loved ones around him a great deal of distress.  It is understandably why you would wish it would all end.  But there are a number of serious reasons why man should not take it into his own hands to end life.  Here is an article that enumerates some of those reasons.  I hope you will not dismiss this out of hand but give it serious consideration over time.

10 Reasons to Ban Assisted Suicide

1.  Assisted suicide turns doctors into killers.

The American Medical Association rejects physician-assisted suicide in the following terms:

“Allowing physicians to participate in assisted suicide would cause more harm than good. Physician-assisted suicide is fundamentally incompatible with the physician’s role as healer, would be difficult or impossible to control, and would pose serious societal risks.”

2.  Assisted suicide endangers the weak and vulnerable.

 Wherever assisted suicide has been legalized, safeguards to protect the ill have been inadequate, watered down or eliminated over time. People who deserve society’s help are instead treated like chattel and offered death.

3.  Assisted suicide laws give societal approval to killing. 

Legislation that allows people to end their lives automatically creates incentives to seek death as a cost-saving option. The elderly and infirm are seen as burdens and can easily be disposed of.  Suicide becomes the easy way out.  

4.  Just call it what it is: suicide.  

Under the false guise of ‘compassion,’ all sorts of euphemisms are being used to force this dangerous legislation on America -- phrases such as “aid in dying,” “end-of-life options,” and “death with dignity.” But there is no getting around the truth: these laws allow doctors to administer drugs designed to facilitate suicide.  Even more insidious, the lethal drugs are falsely labeled as “medication” while designed to do the exact opposite of any true medicine.

5.  Assisted suicide laws are unfair to the disabled.  

The vast majority of those requesting assisted suicide in Oregon was not because of pain, but the loss of functional ability. The mindset involved in allowing the practice of assisted suicide equates disability with a “loss of dignity.”  But, every day, thousands of disabled Americans rely on the assistance of others, without any loss of dignity. 

6.  Assisted suicide laws lead to euthanasia.  

Euthanasia, defined as “the practice of intentionally ending a life in order to end pain and suffering,” has followed wherever assisted suicide laws have been enacted. Instead of the suffering person requesting it, euthanasia is administered by others with or without patient consent.  Dr. Herbert Hendin writing in Psychiatric Times sums up what’s happened in the Netherlands:

“The Netherlands has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress and from voluntary euthanasia to involuntary euthanasia (called “termination of the patient without explicit request”).”

In fact, the Dutch now kill patients and babies born with deformities.

7.  Assisted suicide laws put the poor at risk. 

Those without financial resources are most at risk from this dangerous legislation. Suicide becomes the cheap alternative for the poor who cannot afford costly treatment and medication. By passing assisted suicide laws, the state takes an interest in promoting the suicide of its citizens in order to save money.  In fact, many insurance companies also favor assisted suicide because is saves them a lot of money.

8.  It pressures dying people to end their own lives.  

Those coping with terminal illness are pressured to take the easy way out. “Not being a burden” becomes a powerful temptation to end one’s life.  Instead of cherishing the sunset of life, a terminally ill person’s last moments are deliberately cut short. Laws of this type also allow relatives and family members to kill in order to access inheritances and take advantage of the situation. 

9.  3.4 million nurses oppose assisted suicide.  

The American Nurses Association, which represents 3.4 million registered nurses, has clearly stated that:"... the nurse should not participate in assisted suicide. Such an act is in violation of the Code for Nurses [...] and the ethical traditions of the profession."

10.  Assisted suicide laws go against the Law of God. 

The practice of suicide goes against the 5th Commandment: “Thou shalt not kill.”  This commandment prohibits the murder of oneself or the murder of others. The state has no right to approve laws contrary to the moral and Divine Law.  And all people of good will should firmly reject assisted suicide and stand up for morality and right reason.

Do you know what the difference is between civilization and savagery?  The difference is respect for natural law.  Even the pagans knew how natural law is engrained in our rational human nature.  We tend to do good and avoid evil.

So, to kill oneself or to “help” another person kill himself shatters that fundamental principle of natural law and paves the way for a new "stone age" of dog-eat-dog barbaric savagery.

And -- as history demonstrates -- the gap between “assisted suicide” and mandatory suicide can be very narrow.  Who can guarantee that the legalization of “assisted suicide” today won't prepare the way for a new version of Auschwitz cremation ovens tomorrow?

God bless you and please help us defend moral values by subscribing here.

Well, thank you for your hopefully sincere condolences, not sure with all the added evangelical proselytizing material, but I'll take it as a given. 

Now, what if? What if he was suffering? I know that I would want assisted suicide available as an option if needed, and I don't see how it is in any sense 'merciful' for the victim and family members to be forced to linger on unto death in a state of pain and misery where death provides the only relief from suffering! 

In my brother's case, he has unfortunately been like so many people who don't think about thinking through these things and making arrangements beforehand. In his case, he is of limited intellect, but was smart enough to earn a modest living doing relatively simple/but strenuous work in the time when having a strong back was more important than having brains in many jobs before automation, the computer revolution, and before entire industries vanished without a trace. He was never married, so he leaves no children or a spouse as dependents, so making his funeral and other final arrangements is much easier than where family members may end up fighting against each other over what remains of his estate. 

So, in the end, I would say the present rules dealing with cancer patients and others with terminal illnesses are already too restrictive, and instituting an outright ban like the writers in the extremist conservative Catholic site you linked are captives of strict ideological purity and nothing they have to say on euthanasia, abortion, homosexuals, or socialists, is of any merit. It's just more authoritarian Catholic ideology to maintain all of the present systems of oppression!

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10 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Well, thank you for your hopefully sincere condolences, not sure with all the added evangelical proselytizing material, but I'll take it as a given. 

Now, what if? What if he was suffering? I know that I would want assisted suicide available as an option if needed, and I don't see how it is in any sense 'merciful' for the victim and family members to be forced to linger on unto death in a state of pain and misery where death provides the only relief from suffering! 

In my brother's case, he has unfortunately been like so many people who don't think about thinking through these things and making arrangements beforehand. In his case, he is of limited intellect, but was smart enough to earn a modest living doing relatively simple/but strenuous work in the time when having a strong back was more important than having brains in many jobs before automation, the computer revolution, and before entire industries vanished without a trace. He was never married, so he leaves no children or a spouse as dependents, so making his funeral and other final arrangements is much easier than where family members may end up fighting against each other over what remains of his estate. 

So, in the end, I would say the present rules dealing with cancer patients and others with terminal illnesses are already too restrictive, and instituting an outright ban like the writers in the extremist conservative Catholic site you linked are captives of strict ideological purity and nothing they have to say on euthanasia, abortion, homosexuals, or socialists, is of any merit. It's just more authoritarian Catholic ideology to maintain all of the present systems of oppression!

I'm glad if your brother is not suffering.  That is a big plus.  Hopefully the pain medication will continue to work for him.

I am not Roman Catholic.  My only rule of faith is the King James Bible.  But I agree with the ten points listed on page 2 why MAID must be opposed.  I disagree with Roman Catholic religious theology for the most part.  But I agree with them on these subjects.  If it is in the Bible, we can only agree.  This is a question of taking someone's life, which is condemned in the Bible.  There are only few exceptions when human life may be taken, such as defense in war, defense in police work, and capital punishment for murderers.  Aside from that, there is no allowance in the Bible for taking life because one thinks it will reduce suffering. At what point would a line be drawn.  Leaving it up to the individual also does not make it right.  MAID opens a pandora's box.   It was first legalized in 2016 with a certain number of restrictions but that put Canada on the slippery slope and now the new legislation is proposing to make it even easier to get MAID.  It will put many people at increased risk, especially handicapped people, older people who might not be able to think clearly, people with mental issues and even young people and others.  Many people suffer depression at different times in their life and many might think this is an easy way out.  I don't see opposition to MAID as authoritarian or oppressive.  Human life is sacred and must be protected at all stages from conception to natural death.  The reason as I have said is because God condemns killing humans.  The Bible says in Genesis God created man in his own image and gave a special place in the world.  He place a soul and spirit in man and even though we must face death, our soul does not die but returns to God who gave it.  We will be held accountable for our lives on earth after death.  So it is not my personal opinion and it is not my wish that anyone suffer, but I must follow my Creator who alone creates life and ends it. 

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22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I'm glad if your brother is not suffering.  That is a big plus.  Hopefully the pain medication will continue to work for him.

I am not Roman Catholic.  My only rule of faith is the King James Bible.  But I agree with the ten points listed on page 2 why MAID must be opposed.  I disagree with Roman Catholic religious theology for the most part.  But I agree with them on these subjects.  If it is in the Bible, we can only agree.  This is a question of taking someone's life, which is condemned in the Bible.  There are only few exceptions when human life may be taken, such as defense in war, defense in police work, and capital punishment for murderers.  Aside from that, there is no allowance in the Bible for taking life because one thinks it will reduce suffering. At what point would a line be drawn.  Leaving it up to the individual also does not make it right.  MAID opens a pandora's box.   It was first legalized in 2016 with a certain number of restrictions but that put Canada on the slippery slope and now the new legislation is proposing to make it even easier to get MAID.  It will put many people at increased risk, especially handicapped people, older people who might not be able to think clearly, people with mental issues and even young people and others.  Many people suffer depression at different times in their life and many might think this is an easy way out.  I don't see opposition to MAID as authoritarian or oppressive.  Human life is sacred and must be protected at all stages from conception to natural death.  The reason as I have said is because God condemns killing humans.  The Bible says in Genesis God created man in his own image and gave a special place in the world.  He place a soul and spirit in man and even though we must face death, our soul does not die but returns to God who gave it.  We will be held accountable for our lives on earth after death.  So it is not my personal opinion and it is not my wish that anyone suffer, but I must follow my Creator who alone creates life and ends it. 

I'm pretty sure that the medical world has to sign off on any request for death, and people with mental health issues, or not enough intellect will be screened out. And like you said already, we all have to go before the big guy and be judged, it is their life to do as they wish, it is them that will be judged not. Besides god is forgiving is he not ?

If human life is sacred and must be protected at all times, why has god allowed wars, famines, murder, rape, torture, and all the other crap humans do to each other. Or is he just have powers in the after life ? I ask that question because that God is way behind in taking the lives of mankind's worst. Or maybe he just gave up, because we are just to f**ked up.  

 

It's been my experience that there a lot of people who should be struck dead right now for the evil they have done to others,

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I'm pretty sure that the medical world has to sign off on any request for death, and people with mental health issues, or not enough intellect will be screened out. And like you said already, we all have to go before the big guy and be judged, it is their life to do as they wish, it is them that will be judged not. Besides god is forgiving is he not ?

If human life is sacred and must be protected at all times, why has god allowed wars, famines, murder, rape, torture, and all the other crap humans do to each other. Or is he just have powers in the after life ? I ask that question because that God is way behind in taking the lives of mankind's worst. Or maybe he just gave up, because we are just to f**ked up.  

 

It's been my experience that there a lot of people who should be struck dead right now for the evil they have done to others,

The "sign off on any request for death" is wrong from the start.   Such a law or practice is evil in itself.  As I have said repeatedly, killing is forbidden in God's written revelation to man, the Bible.  On top of that, "will be screened out" is not necessarily true.  A man in Chilliwack, BC, who was not really old, suffered from depression and had mental issues, but he was given assisted death against the wishes of his relatives.

The question of why God allowed wars, famines, murder, rape, torture, etc. is a common question.  According to Biblical theology or teaching, it is because man rebelled against God  when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.  They were tempted by the serpent (Satan) and fell for it.  This was commonly called the fall of man.  It immediately meant all their descendants were born with a corrupt, fallen nature and the world became a corrupt evil place with wars, diseases, crime, etc.  God is sovereign and man who was created by God should not question or argue with God as to why these things happen.  The Bible does answer a lot of these questions.  I am not a theologian and can only give or find some basic answers about some things.  Many answers are also available to Google.  God still is in control of this world and life.  He gave man free will also, but with man's fallen nature, man on his own chooses evil continually.  God allows this for his greater purposes and glory.  But he also sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to be the Savior for those who believe in him.  That is what the Bible is mainly about.  

Yes there is forgiveness, but only for those who accept and believe on his Son Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.  The Bible makes it clear there is no forgiveness apart from one becoming a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

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On 2/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, Aristides said:

I don't want to get into an abortion debate but when does ones control over their own body end, should it end and if so, why?

That IMHO is a fairly simple thing: when their choice costs the life of another genetically distinctly different and viable human being.

Choosing to off yourself and/or getting some help to do so is a profoundly individual right that people are denied.  I agree, they should be required to undergo a psychiatric analysis before being given a green light, but this is something that painfully SHOULD be the only person who has every right to choose - that individual.   Conversely, when it comes to offing and unwanted child, I don't hear ANY of this deep concern for loving thy neighbour and protecting their life.

That we DO need is an extremely simple definition of exactly what you ask: when is a person a person (thus their life must be protected by the state) and when can the state (or worse yet another individual) have the right to take that life.  No politician we have ever had possesses the brains and balls to tackle that one.

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20 hours ago, blackbird said:

I'm glad if your brother is not suffering.  That is a big plus.  Hopefully the pain medication will continue to work for him.

I am not Roman Catholic.  My only rule of faith is the King James Bible.  But I agree with the ten points listed on page 2 why MAID must be opposed.  I disagree with Roman Catholic religious theology for the most part.  But I agree with them on these subjects.  If it is in the Bible, we can only agree.  This is a question of taking someone's life, which is condemned in the Bible.  There are only few exceptions when human life may be taken, such as defense in war, defense in police work, and capital punishment for murderers.  Aside from that, there is no allowance in the Bible for taking life because one thinks it will reduce suffering. At what point would a line be drawn.  Leaving it up to the individual also does not make it right.  MAID opens a pandora's box.   It was first legalized in 2016 with a certain number of restrictions but that put Canada on the slippery slope and now the new legislation is proposing to make it even easier to get MAID.  It will put many people at increased risk, especially handicapped people, older people who might not be able to think clearly, people with mental issues and even young people and others.  Many people suffer depression at different times in their life and many might think this is an easy way out.  I don't see opposition to MAID as authoritarian or oppressive.  Human life is sacred and must be protected at all stages from conception to natural death.  The reason as I have said is because God condemns killing humans.  The Bible says in Genesis God created man in his own image and gave a special place in the world.  He place a soul and spirit in man and even though we must face death, our soul does not die but returns to God who gave it.  We will be held accountable for our lives on earth after death.  So it is not my personal opinion and it is not my wish that anyone suffer, but I must follow my Creator who alone creates life and ends it. 

Okay, I guess we're at an impasse then. Because using common sense and critical thinking to analyze a problem and find the best solution, is my method for making decisions and deciding what's right and what's wrong. I don't agree with just following a  2000 year old rule book ( or more correctly-- someone else's interpretation of an internally contradictory collection of books). 

You're a follower of a Divine Command-Deontology (rules-based systems) .... and I definitely am not! And haven't been since I escaped from fundamentalist shackles decades ago, when I wanted to do my own thinking on just about everything. 

I don't fall completely within the strictures of any one of the other moral systems developed over the eons. I believe some study and self-reflection should be done to develop a system of Virtue Ethics...which was first plotted out by Aristotle a long time ago. His thinking was to develop a subconscious sense of what's right and wrong, so that you know right from wrong immediately, before you have to see the problem laid out in front of you. Catholic theologians commenting on the NT believed that Jesus's statements of 'knowing the law in your heart' followed this line of thinking....if you're a moral person, I don't need to tell you what the rules are

But, a standpoint based on virtue ethics is going to be hard to use to convince others! So, I would say Utilitarian or Consequentialist systems are the best methods to think through what the best solutions are to wider social problems that affect everybody, or could affect everyone. The problem is that utilitarianism...supposedly finding the best solutions for the majority and doing the least harm to the fewest, are difficult to agree upon, so that's why many social issues never get fully resolved. Then there's the problem of weighting the scales to favor monied interests looking for profitable advantage....and that's why "civilization" is so screwed up today!

On this topic here, my thinking is that much unnecessary suffering is caused by a majority of people who live in denial of death and can't face it, so they make bad decisions on these life and death issues for themselves and others.

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On 2/12/2021 at 10:06 AM, bcsapper said:

The only valid justification for assisted suicide is that someone wants it. 

If they are lucky enough to find a medical professional willing to assist, that should be the end of it.

You have to be careful though.  Somebody going through bad depression might want assisted suicide.  Depression is generally a temporary thing.  Killing people for temporary reasons is not a good policy for society to have.  So no, just because somebody asks for it isn't the end of it.    

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On 2/17/2021 at 12:26 PM, Right To Left said:

Okay, I guess we're at an impasse then. Because using common sense and critical thinking to analyze a problem and find the best solution, is my method for making decisions and deciding what's right and what's wrong. I don't agree with just following a  2000 year old rule book ( or more correctly-- someone else's interpretation of an internally contradictory collection of books). 

You're a follower of a Divine Command-Deontology (rules-based systems) .... and I definitely am not! And haven't been since I escaped from fundamentalist shackles decades ago, when I wanted to do my own thinking on just about everything. 

I don't fall completely within the strictures of any one of the other moral systems developed over the eons. I believe some study and self-reflection should be done to develop a system of Virtue Ethics...which was first plotted out by Aristotle a long time ago. His thinking was to develop a subconscious sense of what's right and wrong, so that you know right from wrong immediately, before you have to see the problem laid out in front of you. Catholic theologians commenting on the NT believed that Jesus's statements of 'knowing the law in your heart' followed this line of thinking....if you're a moral person, I don't need to tell you what the rules are

But, a standpoint based on virtue ethics is going to be hard to use to convince others! So, I would say Utilitarian or Consequentialist systems are the best methods to think through what the best solutions are to wider social problems that affect everybody, or could affect everyone. The problem is that utilitarianism...supposedly finding the best solutions for the majority and doing the least harm to the fewest, are difficult to agree upon, so that's why many social issues never get fully resolved. Then there's the problem of weighting the scales to favor monied interests looking for profitable advantage....and that's why "civilization" is so screwed up today!

On this topic here, my thinking is that much unnecessary suffering is caused by a majority of people who live in denial of death and can't face it, so they make bad decisions on these life and death issues for themselves and others.

The problem with anyone using his own reasoning as the ultimate guide of truth and error is that it has proven to be a failure throughout history and is not a reliable or trustworthy guide.  We don't need to look far in history to realize that.  The Communists, the Naziis both thought there own reasoning or ideology was the best there was.  It resulted in 100 million deaths in the 20th century and unimaginable suffering and continues to cause that.  The prisons are full of people who thought their own way was the right way.  Society is full of people who think their own way is the best way.  Sometimes, they are fortunate that it works out for them in business or their personal life.  Often it does not work out.  The Bible on the other hand reveals why our own way is the wrong way.  It teaches how there is a far larger dimension to life and the world than the visible material universe.  It teaches us that the material universe will not bring genuine lasting happiness.  It teaches us that our own way may be disastrous and will not lead us down the best path.  It teaches us that there is a God who created us and created everything for his own glory.  It tells us that God loves us and that we are primarily accountable to him.  It teaches us that there is a purpose for our lives and that human life is a gift from God and it is sacred, that is, that only God has the right to end it.  Even though there is often suffering in life, we need to look to him and his word for understanding of how to deal with it.  There is a reason for everything even though we may not fully understand it.  We need to trust in him.

But before one can trust in him, there must be a complete transformation.  In the Bible, that is called the new birth.  The gospel of John speaks about that.  It can't be just a desire to change one's ways and try to be a good person or do good deeds.  That is not what the transformation is.  It requires a new birth as spoken in the first chapters of the gospel of John.  One must be delivered from this present evil world and transformed into the kingdom of God's Son.  One then becomes a child of God.  It can happen instantly when one turns or is converted to Christ.  It is not done by good works.  It is accomplished by God's grace through faith.  Ephesians ch2:  8, 9  Anything short of that will not do it.  This faith is a gift from God and it comes through study of the word of God.  "17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17 KJB

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7 hours ago, Shady said:

You have to be careful though.  Somebody going through bad depression might want assisted suicide.  Depression is generally a temporary thing.  Killing people for temporary reasons is not a good policy for society to have.  So no, just because somebody asks for it isn't the end of it.    

Like I said, If they are lucky enough to find a medical professional willing to assist, that should be the end of it.

I'm sure a medical professional will be able to figure out if something is just temporary.  If they decide to go ahead anyway, I'm okay with that.  Depressed people have rights too.

Maybe they can find Dr Nick...

 

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14 hours ago, blackbird said:

The problem with anyone using his own reasoning as the ultimate guide of truth and error is that it has proven to be a failure throughout history and is not a reliable or trustworthy guide.  We don't need to look far in history to realize that.  The Communists, the Naziis both thought there own reasoning or ideology was the best there was.   It resulted in 100 million deaths in the 20th century and unimaginable suffering and continues to cause that. 

Religious folks don't have any kind of a better record, do they.  Religious wars, 'Christian' countries invading other countries, Christians oppressing those 'savages' they come across in their travels, or oppressing women or gays, etc.  Christianity and other religions have resulted in 100s of millions of death, and continues to inflict unimaginable suffering on millions of people around the world.

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

The prisons are full of people who thought their own way was the right way

Plenty of Christians and religious people in prison, you know.  Religious people, including Christians, steal, assault, rape and murder just like non-religious people.

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

The Bible on the other hand reveals why our own way is the wrong way

The Bible (and the Koran and the Torah and any other 'holy book') teaches us that God's people can and should do whatever God tells them to, even if it causes death and unimaginable pain and suffering to other people.  In order to make God's people feel better, the text is littered with aspirational instructions:  "Love your neighbor as yourself"; "Do not covet your neighbors stuff"; "Do not murder", along with promises "If you do what I say, even if it harms other people, you get a special reward after you die."

Of course, no dead person - religious or not - has ever corroborated the reward or lack thereof.  Very convenient!

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

But before one can trust in him, there must be a complete transformation.

My sister had a complete transformation when she discovered Q.  Now she knows that the space beings are going to be coming to our rescue, and that the ills of our lives will be taken away when they get here; Trump will be announcing it at some point.  We don't even have to die to experience all this goodness.  If I'm going to believe in some 'all-powerful invisible savior' I think I'd choose the one who doesn't need me to die to get my reward.  

But in the meantime, I'm going to stick with the idea that humans can choose their own path, and if someone feels that only death will relieve their pain, then I think they should be able to choose that path.  

By the same token, if any physician does not feel this is something he or she can support, they should not be required to participate.  

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Religious folks don't have any kind of a better record, do they.  Religious wars, 'Christian' countries invading other countries, Christians oppressing those 'savages' they come across in their travels, or oppressing women or gays, etc.  Christianity and other religions have resulted in 100s of millions of death, and continues to inflict unimaginable suffering on millions of people around the world.

 

I won't try to answer all of your points now because of time required.  But will answer this one and leave the rest for later.

If you are speaking about religious folks, you are correct.  There are many different religions in the world.  The so-called Christians that committed war crimes and started wars were not Bible-believing Christians.  Romanism is not Biblical Christianity.  Hitler and his henchmen were Roman Catholics.  So if you are judging by all the false religion in the world, of course you could say they started a lot of religious wars.  But my comments were specifically referring to the teachings of the Bible which forbid unjust killing and aggression.  Bible believers don't oppress women and gays.  That is another fallacy you have fallen for.  The Bible teaches men are to love their wives as themselves (Ephesians).  Bible believers don't believe in homosexuality and don't believe it is the proper way to live, but they don't oppress them or bother them.  I was specifically referring in my comments to the Bible as a guide, not various religions and people.  They are not a guide.  Communist revolutions has resulted in at least 100 million deaths in the 20th century.  The world wars killed more people in the 20th century that any other wars all through the history.  They were not exactly religious wars.  Jesus taught to love thy neighbour as thyself.  I can't see how you can fault true Biblical Christianity for that.  Missionaries who are following the Bible do not "oppress the savages" as you claim.  They teach them the true gospel and try to help them live a civilized life in accordance with Bible teaching.

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15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I won't try to answer all of your points now because of time required.  But will answer this one and leave the rest for later.

If you are speaking about religious folks, you are correct.  There are many different religions in the world.  The so-called Christians that committed war crimes and started wars were not Bible-believing Christians.  Romanism is not Biblical Christianity.  Hitler and his henchmen were Roman Catholics.  So if you are judging by all the false religion in the world, of course you could say they started a lot of religious wars.  But my comments were specifically referring to the teachings of the Bible which forbid unjust killing and aggression.  Bible believers don't oppress women and gays.  That is another fallacy you have fallen for.  The Bible teaches men are to love their wives as themselves (Ephesians).  Bible believers don't believe in homosexuality and don't believe it is the proper way to live, but they don't oppress them or bother them.  I was specifically referring in my comments to the Bible as a guide, not various religions and people.  They are not a guide.  Communist revolutions has resulted in at least 100 million deaths in the 20th century.  Jesus taught to love thy neighbour as thyself.  I can't see how you can fault true Biblical Christianity for that.  Missionaries who are following the Bible do not "oppress the savages" as you claim.  They teach them the true gospel and try to help them live a civilized life by reason and Bible teaching.

I can't see the halo over the head of someone like that.  Back in the day they'd put one on them but lower it slightly.  

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22 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

I can't see the halo over the head of someone like that.  Back in the day they'd put one on them but lower it slightly.  

Leviticus is part of the Old Testament law which only applied to Israel several thousand years ago.  It does not apply to Christians and never did.  The only things that apply to Christianity are things like the the ten commandments that are valid through all time and restated in other parts of the Bible or New Testament.

This is not really a debate about abortion but since you ask, "24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24 KJB  This verse and other similar verse show God considers the unborn as persons and therefore they fall under the command "thou shalt not kill".  Exodus 20:13 KJB

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30 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I won't try to answer all of your points now because of time required.  But will answer this one and leave the rest for later.

If you are speaking about religious folks, you are correct.  There are many different religions in the world.  The so-called Christians that committed war crimes and started wars were not Bible-believing Christians.  Romanism is not Biblical Christianity.  Hitler and his henchmen were Roman Catholics.  So if you are judging by all the false religion in the world, of course you could say they started a lot of religious wars.  But my comments were specifically referring to the teachings of the Bible which forbid unjust killing and aggression.  Bible believers don't oppress women and gays.  That is another fallacy you have fallen for.  The Bible teaches men are to love their wives as themselves (Ephesians).  Bible believers don't believe in homosexuality and don't believe it is the proper way to live, but they don't oppress them or bother them.  I was specifically referring in my comments to the Bible as a guide, not various religions and people.  They are not a guide.  Communist revolutions has resulted in at least 100 million deaths in the 20th century.  Jesus taught to love thy neighbour as thyself.  I can't see how you can fault true Biblical Christianity for that.

Gee, that's twice as high as the 50 million number most anticommunists quote at me. Where did you find those other 50 million graves? And how many graves were filled with the victims of capitalism...including fascist state-supported capitalism?

For clarity's sake, Hitler was not a Catholic when he was Chancellor of 3rd Reich Germany. He forced leaders of Catholic, Lutheran and smaller protestant sects to attend special theology conferences he organized, that were intended on uniting all of the different legitimate sects of Christianity into one German religion, or go into exile, or maybe face death. Hitler wanted a united, specifically German Christian Church, and likely didn't give a crap about what doctrines or rituals they professed, as long as they became members of one united German club.

The main reason why you are an anti-communist is because your religious indoctrination has come from a religion that learned some time early on....after a few troubles with Roman authorities, to steer their new religion down a path that would not conflict with state power. That's why the Pharisees could not trick Jesus into condemning a Roman coin with Caesar's image on it as a graven image! Jesus had to turn from first century cult leader into public relations spokesman at times to dance around such loaded questions.

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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Leviticus is part of the Old Testament law which only applied to Israel several thousand years ago.  It does not apply to Christians and never did.  The only things that apply to Christianity are things like the the ten commandments that are valid through all time and restated in other parts of the Bible or New Testament.

This is not really a debate about abortion but since you ask, "24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24 KJB  This verse and other similar verse show God considers the unborn as persons and therefore they fall under the command "thou shalt not kill".  Exodus 20:13 KJB

 

The Old Testament (often abbreviated OT) is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible (or Tanakh), a collection of ancient religious Hebrew writings by the Israelites believed by most Christians and religious Jews to be the sacred Word of God.

Strange, when I was a kid the church did not have a Bible that was cut in half.  

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