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Several European nations suspend use of Astra-Zeneca vaccine


myata

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More bad news about AZ from Europe:

EU identifies 169 cases of brain blood clot linked to AstraZeneca vaccine

The findings come as a major hurdle in the global fight against the pandemic and a shift in the stance of the regulator, which had last week backed the vaccine and said there was no increased risk of blood clots in general from the shot.

Now they recommend not giving to anyone younger than 30.
It's ok... it's not ok... it's ok for the younger, not ok, it's ok for elderly, not ok.

This is what happens when knee-jerk reactionary dimwits follow the reports of the day, unvetted scientific disinformation some of it even coming from our international adversaries. The interwebs are a free-for-all information bullshitting superhighway.

Apparently it also causes a severe reduction in a persons intelligence, but that is unsubstantiated, for now.

Edited by OftenWrong
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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes but you are the one who has written them off. Co-lateral damage?

No, you did. The few who died from vaccine reactions matter to you, the thousands who died because they didn't have access to any vaccine don't.

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7 hours ago, Aristides said:

the thousands who died because they didn't have access to any vaccine don't.

absolute bull roar. Is that all you do, make baseless accusations toward others?

Boring.

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11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

absolute bull roar. Is that all you do, make baseless accusations toward others?

Boring.

I really don’t think you are that thoughtless but why do you seem more concerned about the tiny minority who might have a clot from this vaccine than the thousands who died because there was no vaccine.

Let me ask you a question. You said before that you would sue the government if someone close to you died from a clot from the AZ vaccine. What if that person really wanted the vaccine but the government said no and that person then contracted Covid and died. Would you sue then and if not why not?

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2 hours ago, Aristides said:

I really don’t think you are that thoughtless but why do you seem more concerned about the tiny minority who might have a clot from this vaccine than the thousands who died because there was no vaccine.

Let me ask you a question. You said before that you would sue the government if someone close to you died from a clot from the AZ vaccine. What if that person really wanted the vaccine but the government said no and that person then contracted Covid and died. Would you sue then and if not why not?

 

Canada has taken a unique position on AZ due to our predicament with incompetent procurement of vaccines. We are stuck with whatever we can get. The US donated us some 1.5 million doses the other day. On the same day, they stopped producing AZ at their vaccine manufacturing plant.

Secondly this bit about waiting 4 months for the second dose. Canada is going it alone in that. Well, I'm not sure if we are. Maybe some other poor countries that have no vaccine need to stretch it out to the max as well. Unless the company provides research that the virus is just as effective, Canada's inoculation program may cause more unnecessary deaths.

Those are some basic examples of how Canadians need to take undue risks, because of the situation the government created.

Edited by OftenWrong
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At the moment BC is limiting AZ to those between 55 and 65, Europe for anyone over 18 and Britain for anyone over 30. We are actually more restrictive than the other countries that have approved it.

Humans willingly consume plenty of things that are bad for them and almost none of them have the potential to save lives. Eventually the government has to say, this is what we know about this vaccine, how effective it is and what we think the risks are. It is up to you to decide whether you want it or not.

I'm not really comfortable with going four months but existing knowledge seems to justify it. One thing is pretty obvious, the virulence of these new variants makes getting at least one shot into as many people as possible a major priority.

Edited by Aristides
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I agree we are forced to accept sub-par health care for ourselves and the future of our children. That doesnt mean we should cover up or make excuses, for what amounts to clear incompetence.

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33 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I agree we are forced to accept sub-par health care for ourselves and the future of our children. That doesnt mean we should cover up or make excuses, for what amounts to clear incompetence.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by sub par. We really don't seem to have been ahead of this at any point, even after a year we are being more reactive than proactive and certainly we could be doing better if we could manufacture our own vaccines but you can blame every government since the eighties for letting that happen.

 

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We have plain facts today:

1. The story was reported in Canada almost a week after it was known elsewhere.

2. The vaccine was suspended / updated some three weeks after other countries.

These are just facts, feel free to verify. So what does it tell us about the the responsiveness and quality of public health practices in this country? What we already didn't know from "travel from Wuhan", 18 years after SARS.

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1 hour ago, myata said:

We have plain facts today:

1. The story was reported in Canada almost a week after it was known elsewhere.

2. The vaccine was suspended / updated some three weeks after other countries.

These are just facts, feel free to verify. So what does it tell us about the the responsiveness and quality of public health practices in this country? What we already didn't know from "travel from Wuhan", 18 years after SARS.

I really don't give a crap, take it or don't take it. Just stop whining about it.

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4 hours ago, Aristides said:

At the moment BC is limiting AZ to those between 55 and 65, Europe for anyone over 18 and Britain for anyone over 30.

In Germany the age limit for AZ is 60 and above. Those krauts know what they are doing, apparently.

Italy just announced 60.

In Sweden, the age is 65 and up.

Pick your poison.

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5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

"several dozen cases that came mainly from Europe and the United Kingdom, where around 25 million people"

Several dozen incidences of clots among 25 million people.   I can see where it would be much safer to avoid the vaccine and hope you don't catch the disease that kills 2 in 100, or it's cousin that kills 4 in 100.  Yup, makes sense.

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Posted (edited)

Here's some numbers, just thinking aloud feel free to correct or add. So AZ of now has administered 200 mil. dozes worldwide. About a hundred of rare blood clot incidents were identified mostly in Europe (and even in the UK 30 cases were identified only after the concerns were raised). It's impossible to know how many cases were seen in other countries but taking Germany numbers (31 : 2.7 million, i.e. approx. 1 : 100,000, UK's numbers lower, 1 : 500,000).

Now imagine an adult with a reasonably safe lifestyle, healthy and outside of higher-risk age group. For an average adult the risk of being infected in a year could be less that 1 : 100 (city of Kingston numbers, outside of peak areas). In this group, the risk of hospitalization following a confirmed case is also about 1% or higher, depending on the age and other factors. Combined, it makes the risk of hospitalization from Covid approx. 1 : 10,000 (or higher, depending on the age, etc). For comparison, the risk of an injury in a traffic accident in Canada in one year is 150,000 : 30 million or 1 : 200. So, looks like about a hundred times lower, under the assumptions (feel free to correct).

And now the important part. For an individual as described, the cost of negative action i.e. doing nothing appears to be very low (much lower than traffic accident that is assumed low). On the other hand, the result of a positive one (getting vaccinated) carries lower but non-zero risk of severe consequences including death. So how does one approach this dilemma? Do nothing with low risk, or get up go somewhere and get it with a very low chance of a clot. Does it worth it or would it not?

Every individual would think and decide based on the available information. However, our experts don't seem to grasp this individual aspect of the decision for them it's a matter of general statistics and general benefits certainly outweigh general risks but is the information people are looking for? Or they would they be more interested in "how safe it is for me, now"? And once again, expert arguments don't always make sense to a regular citizen who thinks not in terms of abstract millions on paper but his / her own health that is one.

Edited by myata
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Its a moot point what I or anyone here thinks. You people can cheerlead for what you know little about, all you want.

Simple fact is, hardly anyone wants to take AZ and adter the shenanigans about it in the past few weeks, its a hard sell. You can blame the governments in their poor handling of messaging on this.

Because we reacted before truly knowing, and flip flopped to and fro. Most people think it foolish to take chances on that shit.

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49 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Its a moot point what I or anyone here thinks. You people can cheerlead for what you know little about, all you want.

Simple fact is, hardly anyone wants to take AZ and adter the shenanigans about it in the past few weeks, its a hard sell. You can blame the governments in their poor handling of messaging on this.

Because we reacted before truly knowing, and flip flopped to and fro. Most people think it foolish to take chances on that shit.

That's just not true.

https://www.westerlynews.ca/news/lower-mainland-pharmacists-face-overwhelming-demand-for-astrazeneca-shots/

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/strong-early-response-oxford-astrazeneca-rollout-metro-van-55-65s-1.5971514

Edited by Aristides
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2 hours ago, Aristides said:

I can google too, and show you links where it is being rejected by people in Quebec, for example.

It's human nature to fear things especially the way the government and media handled the information.

------------------------------------

Some Montrealers refusing AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine ...
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca › some-montrealers-refusing-a...

Responding to AstraZeneca fears, Arruda urges Quebecers to ...

Covid-19 in Spain: What happens to people in Spain who ...
The Italian authorities have announced that anyone who refuses an AstraZeneca shot will be able to get another type at a later ...
Why are Italians refusing the AstraZeneca vaccine? | ITV News
YouTube · ITV News
Common questions
Why was the AstraZeneca vaccine halted?

European Healthcare Workers Are Refusing AstraZeneca ...
Thousands of healthcare workers are refusing to take the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine over concerns about side effects and efficacy, with some ...

Data finds 36% of people refuse COVID vaccine due to side ...
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org › side-effect-fe...
Mar. 29, 2021 — According to new ONS data, 36% of UK people who are vaccine ... The European Medicines Agency cleared AstraZeneca vaccines for use ...

Do not refuse AstraZeneca, health professionals say ...
https://www.sherbrookerecord.com › do-not-refuse-astr...
Guay said with the risk of a third wave on the horizon, the population should not refuse the AstraZeneca vaccine, insisting it is safe and effective ...

Quebec health officials reassure population about ...
https://globalnews.ca › news › quebec-health-officials-a...
This comes as some people who made appointments are leaving without getting a shot after refusing to get the AstraZeneca injection. Vicki and ...


Third of all Danes would refuse AstraZeneca vaccine as ...
https://www.independent.co.uk › World › Europe
Mar. 25, 2021 — In total, 1053 people were asked with results showing that 33 per cent of Danes would decline to get a shot of AstraZeneca's vaccine if it were ...

Benefits of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh any risk ...
https://www.theguardian.com › world › mar › germany-s...
Amid fears that the suspensions might lead to people refusing to have the vaccine, Downing Street said the AstraZeneca jab “remains both safe ...

France, Italy avoid Oxford vaccine as UK program surges ...
https://www.arabnews.com › node › world
France has already limited the use of the vaccine on people above the age of 65 ... told Italian newspaper La Stampa he had refused the AstraZeneca vaccine, ... Like France, Italy has limited use of the AstraZeneca vaccine to people under 55 ...

Emmanuel Macron crisis: France refusing AstraZeneca after ...
https://www.express.co.uk › News › Politics
3 days ago — FRANCE is expected to suffer a major setback in its push for national immunity because people are refusing the AstraZeneca vaccine.

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People are refusing the vaccine for some interesting reasons.

Significant number of Ontario PSWs refuse their COVID vaccine

There have been concerns from the beginning of the provincial vaccination campaign that certain cultural groups would not be as welcoming of the vaccine as others. Cultural factors may be what is at play here.

A study released by Statistics Canada on COVID-19 showed that 77% of black Canadians said they were very unlikely to take a COVID vaccine.

That study, conducted last September, showed that except for those identifying as Latin American, 66%, or Filipino, 58%, most ethnic groups were closer to 50% in saying they were unlikely to get a vaccine.

....

And yet, those are the very communities where the virus prevails, and for whom we are under lockdown.

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What we see here, is an apparent collusion of some expert and health administration communities to skew this individual evaluation of the risk by, let's guess, massive propaganda. In any objective evaluation of the media reports, policies, advice it can be concluded that level of individual risk perceived from the reports will be far higher than the actual, in most communities.  Sure, with the best intentions, and you can bet it was tried before and almost always with some unexpected (and not always wanted) surprises. The only question that needs to be answered here would be: is it intentional? Is there a directive, on paper or otherwise, to dramatize and emphasize the risks in the public communications. Would be great to hear from our great investigative reporting on this but not holding my breath (taking into account AZ reporting lag).

A more honest and in my view productive alternative would be just to provide current, accurate and complete to the maximum possible extent information efficiently and professionally, while focusing on developing and implementing working solutions that have demonstrable effect in slowing or containing the pandemics. That is, speak and communicate not with words, but actual, visible results. Yes there are examples, but: is it possible here, with this bureaucracy that hasn't changed in 150 years and counting?

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On 4/8/2021 at 9:39 PM, OftenWrong said:

Its a moot point what I or anyone here thinks. You people can cheerlead for what you know little about, all you want.

Simple fact is, hardly anyone wants to take AZ and adter the shenanigans about it in the past few weeks, its a hard sell. You can blame the governments in their poor handling of messaging on this.

I would take AZ today if I could. The benefits far outweigh the risks for me. I do understand why governments are concerned by VIPIT, a potentially fatal condition that seems to be caused by the vaccine, and would want to protect healthy young people from it. Any time I get in a car I’m taking on risk. Life is full of such decisions but we don’t consider most of them. 

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10 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Any time I get in a car I’m taking on risk. Life is full of such decisions but we don’t consider most of them. 

As long as it is an informed conscious decision and one is aware of objective risks. The problem is that the perception of risks here, produced by massive media propaganda may not be objective even remotely. That raises concerns about the lasting effect it may have on the society. If distorting the objective reality by concentrated reporting is acceptable for one purpose / end, then why not for the others / any / all?

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