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Rethink market capitalism?


myata

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So I can't just take it ?  Seems like social engineering was required at some point....

Maybe, but "at some point" is not a synonym of "sufficient" not to mention, "effective" or "best". In this century and facing these challenges we need to be able to learn and adapt continuously. Or if not, if we choose not to, the evolution gives no assurances. The dinosaurs have learned that the hard way.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Link?

 

Seriously ?   OK...here is one of many "links"...

 

Quote

Successive Liberal governments, including this one, have created an unfavourable environment for investment and commercial success for innovative pharmaceutical companies in Canada. They have made it very difficult for Canadian CEOs to attract investment to Canada despite many attempts by the industry to work with governments to do so. They have made no effort to work with the innovative industry to encourage a partnership that could deliver tremendous value to the health-care system and the economy and give Canadians early access to new medicines and vaccines.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/opinion-why-were-not-doing-better-on-covid-vaccines

 

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  And are there any unintended bad consequences that could occur via changes that have never been tried before, such as happened under communism and free-trade?

2. Thanks buddy.  I send tender kisses!

1. Yes, but our system is an iteration on the excessive social state that was the Soviet Union.  There are always unintended consequences, such as we're living in now.

2. Mwah

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17 minutes ago, myata said:

1. The dinosaurs have learned that the hard way.

1. This analogy implies that the dinosaurs created meteors.

 

The system we are in is clearly not the final social configuration of humankind.  A lot of people seem unhappy with it.

 

We should talk about what the next system would look like.

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22 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This analogy implies that the dinosaurs created meteors.

 

The system we are in is clearly not the final social configuration of humankind.  A lot of people seem unhappy with it.

 

We should talk about what the next system would look like.

What is the best system that you can possibly imagine?

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23 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Seriously ?   OK...here is one of many "links"...

Mega rich drug company CEO blames leftwing governments for lessening drug patents.  Surprisingly does not blame himself, drug companies, or rightwing governments, or explain what exactly is wrong with patents in Canada.

Meanwhile Canada has really cheap drugs and Americans flock here to buy them.

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On 3/24/2021 at 4:18 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Link?

He's not going to provide any links, cause he was already shown the truth before -- it was under Con-servative - Brian Mulroney thoughtful leadership when Canada sold off its vaccine development labs -- Connaught Labs to a private US company...who quickly shut it down and packed up all its equipment to ship to the US.

People who repeat the same old bullshit don't want to look at alternative evidence.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Meanwhile Canada has really cheap drugs and Americans flock here to buy them.

If there was a way to make public sector effective and responsive to the critical needs of the society I would be all for it. As it stands though, the choice is between expensive but available private product and mediocre, sluggish to a stop, time and cost-unlimited maybe. Seriously, can't tell which one is better... or worse if it mattered.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Meanwhile Canada has really cheap drugs and Americans flock here to buy them.

 

Canada still imports most of the drugs, and can't even develop and manufacture its own covid vaccine doses even under license, taking from third world nations (COVAX) instead.

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On 3/23/2021 at 5:36 PM, cannuck said:

We need to put people to work creating wealth, not re-distributing it. 

People in general do not create wealth; they destroy the wealth that is already there.  They have the ability to convert a forest with all its inhabitants - tigers, peacocks, monkeys and all the rest into.....BitCoins (imaginary) and landfills (non-imaginary) garbage.

What needs to be rethought is the Capitalist Model based on constant expansion and population growth.

 

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On 3/23/2021 at 8:36 PM, cannuck said:

It REALLY needs to change.  There is a dramatic difference between "investing" (what markets SHOULD be for - i.e. IPOs and POs) and simply gambling (buying existing equities or artificial instruments such as derivatives to speculate on their value).   We have let the banksters move the movement of money from Main Street (funding that guy who MAKES the gizzmos) to simply trading speculative devices.  This is what allows them to re-distribute trillion$$ that must be covered by inflating the money supply to cover their speculative gains.  THAT is a direct liability to the taxpayer.  Also, shifting the flow of money from investing to speculating means that the barriers to access to market capital to business becomes very high - thus Main Street is de-funded while Wall Street takes the cake and eats it too.

We need to put people to work creating wealth, not re-distributing it.  The welfare bum in the corner house is no different from the Wall Street whiz kid = neither creates any wealth at all, just re-distributes it.  The difference that does exist is one costs the economy billions while the other costs trillions.  We SHOULD have had all this shit on the table in '08, but by then Goldman Sucks literally owned government, so instead of being dashed on the rocks for their treachery they were rewarded with unlimited access to the taxpayers back pockets and given complete run of the legislative and regulatory process that once brought them under control after 1929.

When central banks are free to just create trillions in new dollars whenever fear an economic downturn and to keep their brokerage firm buddies employed and making big returns, then the system is broken. And the hotshots on Wall Street and other market hq's will realize it when there finally is a run on the USD and all other paper fiat currencies.

It's bound to happen sometime this year according to bears who are in the know. Bubbles can't go on forever and will eventually pop. The bigger they get, the harder the fall, and no QE money creation will be able to stop it!

So, anyone trying to protect their little nest eggs (or big nest eggs in some cases) needs to park some of their money into gold or bitcoin. Other crypto's don't have a high level of trust from the people who are looking for exits of the Dollar Expressway.

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2 hours ago, cougar said:

People in general do not create wealth; they destroy the wealth that is already there.  They have the ability to convert a forest with all its inhabitants - tigers, peacocks, monkeys and all the rest into.....BitCoins (imaginary) and landfills (non-imaginary) garbage.

What needs to be rethought is the Capitalist Model based on constant expansion and population growth.

 

I'm reminded now that the best example of how poorly capitalism identifies wealth is that a forest has no value under our system until someone chops down trees to make wood products or cuts them all down to sell as farmland. 

From that, it's not hard to figure out how our world has gotten to such a dismal place so quickly.

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3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Hunting and gathering societies lived subsistently and therefore very poor, until advanced agriculture came along.

 

Poor by whose standards? From what I've read of the last remaining hunter-gatherers living in forests and deserts, the last remaining wild tribes existed closely and interacted with farmers, and although they tried to maintain pleasant relations with outsiders, they had no intentions of going beyond trading and/or exchanging a few items, and adopting the "modern" lifestyles.

If they're 'poor' by modern standards, they are/or were happy to be poor and just live off of what their local environments could provide for them. 

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On 3/24/2021 at 6:27 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1. This analogy implies that the dinosaurs created meteors.

 

The system we are in is clearly not the final social configuration of humankind.  A lot of people seem unhappy with it.

 

We should talk about what the next system would look like.

An Indian wise man - Jiddu Krishnamurti once said of our modern dilemma: "becoming well adjusted to a sick society should not be considered a sign of good mental health!"

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9 hours ago, Right To Left said:

An Indian wise man - Jiddu Krishnamurti once said of our modern dilemma: "becoming well adjusted to a sick society should not be considered a sign of good mental health!"

He's an arrogant ass speaking from a position of power and comfort. "Becoming well-adjusted DESPITE a sick society is a sign of good mental health."

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On 3/24/2021 at 8:23 AM, myata said:

But again, we can't prevent people from trading their commodity can we? And we need to sell oil, metals, minerals, gold etc and so on. Let's not turn this into a global reengineering of the humankind, as in this country even a tiny, minuscule change can be "such a huge can of worms".

The speculative activity of finance is what is the cause of problem #1 - and that is easily stopped by taxing speculative gain - hard.  When it comes to oil, mineral, gold, etc. this is once again where we have let finance stick their very unwelcome nose in the door of commodities markets.  They add no value but play all kinds of manipulative games not because they are delivering some useful service but because they interfere with actual markets that will exist all on their own.   Once again, being a speculative activity, you just tax it 99% of day one and it stops.  The ONLY people that should be entitled to the benefits of producing and selling a commodity are the producers.  The way to keep it honest is to require that anyone trading a commodity have physical possession (which banks seldom do).   I happen to be in the resource business, and have watched our prices jerk all over the place due to the financiers' games.

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10 hours ago, Right To Left said:

From that, it's not hard to figure out how our world has gotten to such a dismal place so quickly.

By "We the People" being so ignorant and complacent as to allow banks to place their speculative activity above real business financing.

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10 hours ago, Right To Left said:

. . .  a forest has no value under our system until someone chops down trees to make wood products or cuts them all down to sell as farmland. 

You live in a wood house?  Use toilet paper?  Eat any crops grown on that cleared land?

What color is the sky in 'your world' ?

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16 hours ago, cougar said:

What needs to be rethought is the Capitalist Model based on constant expansion and population growth.

Ok only why is it "capitalist" model? Anything alive in the nature wants to expand and grow till it finds a hard stop. It was so from the first cell so what's so capitalist about it? Public bureaucracies, their costs and numbers and volumes of useless activity (not to be confused with results) can expand as well as or even quicker than any private enterprise that is limited at least by marker constraints as opposed to "just spend it".

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