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FastNed

Is America Altruistic?

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What we may or may not have done in the past is no longer germane, Nova - discussion, debate, compromise all ended on 9 - 11.

9 - 11 was the commencement of unrestricted warfare against America - that is the only issue remaining.

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Dear FastNed,

Wrong, totally wrong.

Unrestricted warfare started with the caveman, and it is a sad testimony that we have not risen above it yet. (When I say we I mean all mankind) The US has in the past used the threat 'genocide or assimilation' with successful results. Lots of other cultures have too. Many have come and gone. Some (including new ones like the US) are still experimenting.

Those are also NOT the 3 choices, as you see them, being offered by Islamic 'terrorists'. For if they were, that would be 'war' and not 'terrorism'.

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Fastned, I find it extremely disturbing that you would disgreard the lessons of history. You are doomed to repeat them.

You would rather seen another 3,016 die then look at why it happened. That is morally unjust, to everyone.

"yes, let's ignore WHY it happend, so we can do those things over again, so ANOTHER 3,016 can die! That's patriotism in my mind!"

MY GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

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Fastned, I find it extremely disturbing that you would disgreard the lessons of history. You are doomed to repeat them.

You would rather seen another 3,016 die then look at why it happened. That is morally unjust, to everyone.

"yes, let's ignore WHY it happend, so we can do those things over again, so ANOTHER 3,016 can die! That's patriotism in my mind!"

MY GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Hi Nova. So what should we do to make the world right? You come up with some genralized threads and we will dicuss them. Beats hammering on a bunch of right wingers anyday.

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Nova, if you had completed your education and exited to the real world and still held these views, I would not spend any more time attempting to broaden your viewpoint. I still have hope that you can be changed from a victim into a survivor.

Be it two people, two nations or two ideologies, there is a line which can not be crossed if matters are to remain civilized between them. If, as and when that line is crossed, civilized conduct ends. It must because a civilized response is not a shield against the law of the jungle. A rabid animal is not stopped by civilized discourse. When faced with the unthinkable, all possible responses must be considered.

" The real power of Islamic jihad lies not in its destructive means, as some have mistakenly held, but in the bottomless depth of its hatred, its total indifference to any known historical standard of decency which makes anyone who would confront it descend into the very pit of Hell. The necromancers of Islam have unleashed a dark spirit upon the world and we must struggle to contain it without becoming infected by its malice."

"One obvious option would be a full retaliatory extermination -- killing every known Muslim on the planet -- a billion deaths -- as a comprehensive response to nuclear jihad."

"What are we to make of a pressing contingency whose only apparent solutions would make Hitler proud? The urge to look away from these ugly thoughts is overwhelming, until we realize that the enemy has compelled us to consider them or die."

These are quotes from an article " The Unthinkable" at Belmontclub (Scroll down)

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I wish you luck in a unwinable war. I wish you godspeed aganist a enemy you will never understand. I wish you good hunting aganist a enemy you will never beat. I wish you the best of thoughts aganist a enemy you will never come to terms with. I wish you many children aganist a enemy who's ally is attrition. I wish you the best of luck in a war that will corrupt you and your kin to the very bone with the vile stench of hatred.

But most of all, I wish you ignorance in this war so you will never understand anything that will help you. That gift, however, has been granted to you by the presidebt.

As they say, Ignorance is bliss.

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Black Dog, your post appears to say that fanatics are free to do anything they wish so long as it is to an 800 LB gorilla. And yet again, you prattle marxist doctrine on capitalism as justification for our "victimhood".

Your comments on "lust for blood" appear to be nothing more than the old blood libel against the Jews, why am I still not surprised.

Nooo. I'm saying the 800 lb gorilla can only lie down in so many places before it can expect to be challenged. Thus has it ever been with Empires, yet you seem to think America is an innocent dragged into a war with an entire race of people. Nothing exists in a vaccum. Doe sthat excuse or justify terrorist actions? No, but context is important.

As for your final comment, I challenge you to find any reference to the Jewish people in anything I've written. Your thinly veiled accusations of anti-Semetism are a sure sign that you're slipping. :angry:

Oh, and I've never read marx. I'm a social democrat. :P

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Hello, Black Dog - you made a comment about "lust for blood" which prompted my comment about a "blood libel".

I freely admit that I may have misconstrued the basis of your comment and if I did so, I apologise! I had just come from reading translated arabic hate sermons and my mind-set was in that area so you can understand how I made that sort of error.

When you state, as you did, that corporate interests drove our actions in Iraq, you are repeating Marxist drivel - even if you have never read Marx. The literature of the left is so infested with these ideas you no longer have to read Marx in the original.

We have a basic disconnect between us - I maintain that the motivation for the terrorist attacks against us is no more than their hate for our culture and way of life. They have said so. You, however, add to this your litany of every perceived American wrong of these last fifty years. I believe you are allowing your opinion of our actions to be projected upon those who are our enemies.

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Nova, if you had completed your education and exited to the real world and still held these views, I would not spend any more time attempting to broaden your viewpoint.

what is it with the bashing of novas education? did he drop out of harvard and become a porn star or something? didnt we go over this already Fastned? i thought you had choosen a different perspective on this sort of thing.

the current discussion is all over the map, but the thread started on altruism of America. Fastned said it isnt and people should stop expected it to act like it is or something.

well i dont know if anybody else watches the 6:30 american news, ABS/CBS/NBC or whatever, but it CERTAINLY shows a society that considers itself altruistic on many issues.

hell if you just look at Bush blab about all america does for the world, you would think you guys are like red cross volunteers. its crazy.

I wonder how many americans know that yesterday, sept 11th, was also the 30th anniversay of the US sponsored military coup in Chile, which setup General Pinochet to terrorize the nation for years. The CIA helped to destabolize a democratically elected gov, then helped to draw up lists of thousands of possible opposition leaders, most of which were executed by death squads.

here are just a few links that detail the CIA operations, covert funding, and terror the US assisted in 1973 Chile.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB...B8/nsaebb8i.htm

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/us...chile_1973.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terroris...oup_USHand.html

http://www.socialconscience.com/articles/2.../2002/chile.htm

but yet most americans dont know about it, certainly dont care about it, and yet are convinced by their leaders they make the most sacrifices of any nation on earth out of pure humanity. so yes americans do think they are altruistic, becaues if Chilean terrorists bombed LA, the first question would be once again "why do they hate us"?.

so its definately a cause of mass delusional self proclaimed altruism.

SirRiff

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Dear Sir Riff,

Well said. The last sentence basically defines this thread and many arguments on others. While the starter of this thread does not believe America is or should be altruistic, it should be noted that American Media does it's best to portray the image that they are.

Another example of how 'mass delusioned, self-proclaimed altruism works was Panama. The entire world was against it, voted to issue a UN directive against it, and the American media did not say a word to the American people about it. (with the noted exception of 1 major news station that had a 10 second sound byte "In other news, the UN security council voted overwhelmingly to call the invasion of Panama a 'flagrant violation of international law')

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I think it is you who is ignorant here.

The terrorist attacks on America have absolutely nothing to do with Panama or Chile. This is what Ned is trying (in vain, I suspect) to pound into your skulls.

America isn't suffering terrorist attack because it failed to contribute enough money to the outside world, or because it sent troops into Panama, backed South Vietnam or Chiang Kai-shek, or because it didn't send enough food when people were starving in Bangladesh.

If those were the actual criteria for terrorist attack, Russia would have been suicide-bombed back to the stone age for all the meddling and backing of tyrants the Communists indulged in. All G7 countries have cut their foreign aid contributions recently, why are terrorists not attacking them?

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The terrorist attacks on America have absolutely nothing to do with Panama or Chile. This is what Ned is trying (in vain, I suspect) to pound into your skulls.

you mean other then being part of a string of poor nations the US has covertly influenced through para-military operations and then left to be brutalized by the very men it empowered who later threaten to export that very same violence?

because we all know there is nothing to learn from repeatidly secretly arming terrorists, abandoning them when your interests are met, then proclaiming confusion years later when the violence comes home to roost.

SirRiff

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THE TERRORIST ATTACKS AMERICA IS SUFFERING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PANAMA OR CHILE.

What are you having such difficulty understanding about that?

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THE TERRORIST ATTACKS AMERICA IS SUFFERING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PANAMA OR CHILE.
you mean other then being part of a string of poor nations the US has covertly influenced through para-military operations and then left to be brutalized by the very men it empowered who later threaten to export that very same violence?

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You can only form a string when there's a connection.

Oh, and by the way, to say that America removed a democratic leader and replaced him with a dictator is being a little stingy with the truth.

At the height of the Cold War, when America believed (not without justification) that the Communists were out to rule the world, America removed a democratically elected Communist leader and replaced him with a dictator more receptive to their views. Thus, they opined, the cancer of Communism could be arrested, at least in one country. It was a hard choice, but so is amputating a gangrenous limb. Democracy was endangered, but democracy would have been even more endangered had the Communists won the Cold War.

I hardly think that the US government was just itching for the chance to install a dictator so that some innocent Chileans could get shot, and you don't either, so don't pretend you do.

Do you have any arguments that aren't fabrications and half-truths?

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democracy. LOL. The US should have one, the US hasn't been a democracy in years.

Representative Mob rule. what a way to rule.

Look at how many congress persons and senators are millionaires. We are essentially being ruled by the rich. Representative plutocracy anyone?

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This is just the kind of nonsense KrustyKidd was talking about. People here are pretty smart, for the most part, and while far-fetched and sweeping statements without fact or evidence might make you look clever in front of the nitwit socialists in your school, you are just embarrassing yourself on this forum.

Just look at this last statement. You say the US has not been a democracy in years, and then say that it is ruled by representative mob rule. Those two statements are contradictory. You also cannot have mob rule in a plutocracy. You may be right that many American politicians are rich but you fail to explain what the ramifications of that might be and how it endangers democracy.

Now, stop this immaturity. Join the grown-ups and debate properly or get out.

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At the height of the Cold War, when America believed (not without justification) that the Communists were out to rule the world,

uh you just implied that russia was out to rule the world but the US wasnt. you think thats true?

America removed a democratically elected Communist leader and replaced him with a dictator more receptive to their views

you seem to be allergic to numbers. tell us what this new dictator did after receiving help from the US. give us some examples of how many people he killed and how the US reacted to it. becaues that is just another example of being "stingy with the truth" as you put it. there is alot of information on what he did, so why dont you enlighten us all with the truth, what did the US supported Pinochet do and how many did he kill?

It was a hard choice, but so is amputating a gangrenous limb.

why do you think it was a hard choice? i dont think it weighed on thier minds at all, after all, the same sorts of people did it in iran in 1953, they allied with osama nad his crew in teh 80s, they supported hussiain in the 80s, they dealth with iran in the 80s. considering it was done in secret, at the expense of thousands of lives, and they never said a word about the terrors ever again, it seems much more likely it was a very easy dispassionate choice they made. no reason to think otherwise based on the declassified CIA documents made available adn the lack of any official response as they found out about teh suffering.

Democracy was endangered, but democracy would have been even more endangered had the Communists won the Cold War.

that doest make sense.

the US overthrowing a gov is not less threatening then Russia supporting a puppet regime. the US did the exact same thing as every other evil power. thats actually a very illogical thing to say, that there are less dangerous ways to threaten democracy by toppling governments. by definition, you destory democracy when you topple a gov, regardless of intention.

I hardly think that the US government was just itching for the chance to install a dictator so that some innocent Chileans could get shot, and you don't either, so don't pretend you do.

no but they were itching to get a stable gov that could keep the trade going and money flowing and intelligence coming and doing their dirty work and so on and so on. that is obviously why they keep topping governments and supporting dictators.

SirRiff

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uh you just implied that russia was out to rule the world but the US wasnt. you think thats true?

Yes.

Note that countries "liberated" by the Red Army became Soviet satellites, whereas countries liberated by the US became free and independent states again. The Truman doctrine has become waylaid from time to time, I'll grant you, but at least there was a Truman Doctrine. The same cannot be said for the Soviet Union.

there is alot of information on what he did, so why dont you enlighten us all with the truth, what did the US supported Pinochet do and how many did he kill?

I'm not questioning the story. I'm just providing background information. Pinochet didn't arise out of a vacuum, you know.

the US overthrowing a gov is not less threatening then Russia supporting a puppet regime.

Yes, it is. See above - US vs USSR, clearly there's a side that we'd all prefer won that war. Unless you like gulags, thoughtcrime and martial law.

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Yes, it is. See above - US vs USSR, clearly there's a side that we'd all prefer won that war. Unless you like gulags, thoughtcrime and martial law.

do tell who won afganistan?

after millions of innocents were killed, maimed, and raped, who won afganistan?

middle east oil secure at what cost?

SirRiff

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Anti-Americanism is driven and fueled by envy, spite and basically a lack of the talent to survive and compete in the modern world which is led by America.

They rail over decades old acts like the muslims rail against the Mongols for the sack of Baghdad in 1258; like them, they keep looking back attempting to find some historic period during which what they represent was important. They chant their pathetic mantra convinced that if they say it long enough and loud enough someone might believe them. Or perhaps, it is to drown out that faint voice of reason which on rare occasion presents itself in their dim minds.

It is both easy and obvious for little people to hate a leader for he leads while they bring up the rear, and fall further and further behind. Of course, they attempt to stab him in the back - for obvious reasons! It is the only part of him they will ever have an opportunity to reach.

America is moving faster, climbing new heights, reaching for the heavens while they wallow in the mud made by their tears of inadequacy and frustration. And you hate us the most because we overlook your incompetence and inability to compete - because we pity you.

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