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Israel Invades Lebanon


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In all seriousness Black Dog, perhaps you should look into the history of why Israel has to be an "armed camp". Perhaps being attacked on 4 fronts by all of its neighbouring countries on more than one occasion is a good reason to be armed to the teeth. Perhaps its the continous comments by countries like Iran that threaten to exterminate them with the nukes they are building. Or maybe because none of the surrounding countries think they even have a right to exist on their tiny 22,000 square kilometers, and want to push them into the sea. Maybe it's just all the Neville Chamberlains in the world, such as your self who won't allow Israel to defend themselves but would rather they lay down and die. What is it Black Dog, ignorance or hatred? I think its obviously the later given your absurd "ethnic cleansing" statement.

See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land. The reason Israel has never known peace is because it's history and its ideological underpinings make peace impossible. Quite simply, Israel was founded on the belief that Jews have an inherent right to the land, thus there was no need to acquire the land through just means, nor was there need to consider those actualy living there. It's ironic that the country that was meant be a safe haven for Jews has made them even more of a target of hate and fear. That has nothing to do with the race or religion of the people who make up the nation, but everything to do with the actions and ideology of the state.

What is truly amusing and ironic is someone who, he himself, is living on "stolen" land from the native inhabitants by genocide, is self-righteously lecturing a people who have far more of a right to inhabit literally a sliver of land than he has to live on his land stolen from natives who had it for 20,000 years. At least the Jews had been there before. Perhaps you practice what you preach Black Dog and give back everything you own to the people whom your predecessors stole from, mmm?

What is even more amusing is your affirming the consequent comment about making the Jews more a target of hate and fear by merely existing. As if somehow they appeared out of no where and made a big land grab on their own. And ya nice dodge on the race and religion thing by claiming "ideology". It just so happens that about 95% of Israel is Jewish...

no question that its actions (such as bombing Beirut airport and other parts of Lebanon not adjacent to Israeli teritory) are a disproportinate response to Hizbullah's aggression.

Almost a direct quote from France and Russia's foreign ministries. :rolleyes:

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See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land.
The Jewish claim on Isreal is as legimate as any Aboriginal claim on land in Canada. In both cases, the only thing that is relevant is the societies that exist today. Today, Isreal is a state and it has a right to exist - if the Palistianians want land they should be asking why their so-called allies in Jordan and Egypt don't return the land annexed when these states started a war with Isreal after the UN partition.
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Isreal has taken over territory in the past to act as a buffer, but it hasn't taken the all-important step of expelling the people living on that land. With Arabs on the land you have constant trouble, riots, terrorism, etc. Render the land uninhabitable. Lay landmines by the tens of thousands, and then use sensors, artillery, snipers and helicopter gunships to kill anything that goes into that territory. That approach absolves you of the need to have checkpoints and road blocks which are nothing more than magnets for rioters and terrorist attacks.

IMHO they ought to just shove all the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt and let the Egyptians deal with them from now on.

Or someone could just nuke Israel and solve the whole problem. Oh wait! That would make one an "anti-semite". But if you're talking about ethnic cleansing of any other race, that's totally cool.

In all seriousness, I'm sure turning Israel into an armed camp would make it oh-so much more attractive to potential investors and immigrants. Not to mention the burden it would place on the economy. It would be cute, though, like a little North Korea in the Middle East. Only Jewish.

Bottom line here is that any initiative undertaken by Israel such as the pull-out from Gaza has resulted in both the Palestinians, Syria, Iran, and now Hezbollah in Lebanon thinking that somehow Israel is weak. Hamas is running the Palestinian State and their stated goal is the elimination of Israel from the face of the earth. They then they send troops into Israeli territory to kill and kidnap, and shoot rockets into Israeli communities, and they are surprised that Israel is retaliating, what is wrong with these nuts. Israel had every right to consider the first attack after Hamas was sworn in as an act of war, and go into Palestine and clean house, but Israel still showed restraint, and I'm not sure why when their people are being killed by state sponsored military from Palestine.

Now we have Lebanon (Syria) becoming involved with their own attacks with Hezbellah fighters. All bets should be off and now Israel should consider any attack by another country in that region as an act of war and take all measures to protect themselves. Iran is quite likely helping to fund these incursions into Israel and maybe it is time for Israel to strike preemptively to prevent Iran from getting directly involved.

We need to stop being sorry for the Palestinians because they are bringing on their own grief by first electing a terrorist organization to lead them, and now cheering and celebrating every time an Israeli get killed. Maybe Israel should just do what the stated goal of Hamas is toward Israel and wipe Palestine and all of her citizens off the face of the earth.

We need to ask where has the United Nations been whenever Palestian's fire rockets into Israeli villages and towns, and why it is that the idiot Koffi Annan seems to have a biased opinion and continually demands that Israel show restraint. I read an article on the Canadian Free Press which stated that as Israel was in the process of pulling out of Gaza the U.N. paid for a bumper sticker campaign in favour of Palestine. These bumper stickers, banners, etc., were handed out to Palestinian youth and young adults and they bore the slogan; TODAY-GAZA-TOMORROW-THE-WEST-BANK-AND-JERRUSALEM. What is this wanabe world government doing taking sides in this dispute? It seems to me that the United States is right-on in their assertions that the U.N. has become irrelevant, and is nothing but an expensive bureaucracy which accomplishes nothing except eat up $Billions. Maybe it is time to disband the U.N. forever. It would be a scary world if the U.N. made the rules. We may all end up living in Islamic States.

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See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land.
The Jewish claim on Isreal is as legimate as any Aboriginal claim on land in Canada. In both cases, the only thing that is relevant is the societies that exist today. Today, Isreal is a state and it has a right to exist - if the Palistianians want land they should be asking why their so-called allies in Jordan and Egypt don't return the land annexed when these states started a war with Isreal after the UN partition.

Great question but even that doesn't seem to be necessary. Israel, though reluctant, is willing to make concessions for peace but it's never enough. They turned over Gaza only to have their Synagogs and flags burned and rockets launched from the territory as thanks for the gesture. Then they launch attacks inside Israeli territory but somehow Israel is the bad guy for responding. Israel is the bad guy for building a wall to protect themselves. Israel is showing the "disproportionate" amount of force, nevermind the unprovoked attacks by Hizbullah and Hamas. Serious double standards and hypocrisy going on here.

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What is truly amusing and ironic is someone who, he himself, is living on "stolen" land from the native inhabitants by genocide, is self-righteously lecturing a people who have far more of a right to inhabit literally a sliver of land than he has to live on his land stolen from natives who had it for 20,000 years. At least the Jews had been there before. Perhaps you practice what you preach Black Dog and give back everything you own to the people whom your predecessors stole from, mmm?

Well see, thing is I support efforts to do right by Canada's native population to make some kind of amends for the legacy of genocide and theft we continue to benefit from today. (Also: my predeccessors here didn't steal anything. That job was done by the time they arrived). As for the absurd claim that "the Jews had been there before," that assumes some kind of direct lineage between the former occupants of the land that is now Israel and Palestine and the people who founded the modern state of Israel who were mostly European Jews who would be hard pressed to find any connection to the land beyond sharing a religion with the former occupants. By the same logic, one could argue for the return of the Caliphate (after all, much of what is now the West was once Muslim territory).

What is even more amusing is your affirming the consequent comment about making the Jews more a target of hate and fear by merely existing. As if somehow they appeared out of no where and made a big land grab on their own. And ya nice dodge on the race and religion thing by claiming "ideology". It just so happens that about 95% of Israel is Jewish...

Try reading for comprehension. it is the actions which led to the creation of Israel's state, and subsequent action on the part of said state that are the source of fear and hatred. I made that pretty clear in my earlier post. keep trying to hang that anti-semetism tag onme, though. I'd hate to deprive you of what seems to be your sole joy.

The Jewish claim on Isreal is as legimate as any Aboriginal claim on land in Canada.

Bollocks.

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What is truly amusing and ironic is someone who, he himself, is living on "stolen" land from the native inhabitants by genocide, is self-righteously lecturing a people who have far more of a right to inhabit literally a sliver of land than he has to live on his land stolen from natives who had it for 20,000 years. At least the Jews had been there before. Perhaps you practice what you preach Black Dog and give back everything you own to the people whom your predecessors stole from, mmm?

Well see, thing is I support efforts to do right by Canada's native population to make some kind of amends for the legacy of genocide and theft we continue to benefit from today. (Also: my predeccessors here didn't steal anything. That job was done by the time they arrived). As fot he claim that "the J

Would you tolerate natives launching suicide attacks in your neighbourhood to speed up the process? Would you have understanding towards natives kidnapping soldiers? Would you support the assasination of Canadians by natives? Outside countries funding the natives to launch assaults?

Of course you wouldn't so why such tolerance and understanding of a similar situation else where?

(Also: my predeccessors here didn't steal anything. That job was done by the time they arrived).

Today's Jews might argue the same thing. You still live here on their land and benefit from someone else's dirty work. That's great moral justification by the way. You could have someone rob a bank for you or you could hire a hit man to kill for you and wouldn't have to feel any guilt.

keep trying to hang that anti-semetism tag onme, though. I'd hate to deprive you of what seems to be your sole joy.

I don't need to, you're doing quite well on your own...

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See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land.
Wow! You've managed to summarize Israeli history in one sentence! BD, your ability to nuance always impresses me.

Two quotes I saw on this incursion/blockade:

U.S. President George W. Bush refused to join the criticism. "Every nation must defend herself against terrorist attacks and the killing of innocent life," he said. "It's a necessary part of the 21st century."
Bush is right. In the 20th century, civilized countries waited too long before responding. That has changed.
"We are taking the Lebanese government as the one who is carrying all the responsibility on its shoulders regarding this area and regarding the future of Lebanon," said Brig.-Gen. Dan Halutz.

The Israeli air force may attack Beirut or any other place in Lebanon, he added.

"Nothing is safe [in Lebanon], as simple as that," Halutz said.

The Israelis are telling the Lebanese government to get control of Hizballah. The Syrian army has left and now it's up to the Lebanese. I have always found the Lebanese claim that they are mere peons under the manipulated control of greater forces to be a self-serving excuse. (The same argument is heard all through the Arab Middle East.)

The idea of an Israeli/Lebanese buffer zone is not impossible - one exists between Israel and Syria on the Golan Heights. But if you look at a map, you'll see that the Lebanese/Israeli border is long and a buffer zone would be difficult to create.

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As for the absurd claim that "the Jews had been there before," that assumes some kind of direct lineage between the former occupants of the land that is now Israel and Palestine and the people who founded the modern state of Israel who were mostly European Jews who would be hard pressed to find any connection to the land beyond sharing a religion with the former occupants. By the same logic, one could argue for the return of the Caliphate (after all, much of what is now the West was once Muslim territory).

I see so if there is a break in the chain you can't have what was originally yours. How exactly does that jive with your native opinion here in Canada? Must be nice to have a rule book to go by, where do I get one?

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Would you tolerate natives launching suicide attacks in your neighbourhood to speed up the process? Would you have understanding towards natives kidnapping soldiers? Would you support the assasination of Canadians by natives? Outside countries funding the natives to launch assaults?

Of course you wouldn't so why such tolerance and understanding of a similar situation else where?

All of those things you mentioned have already happened in Canada. Anyway, a resolution to Canada's native issues is desireable.

Today's Jews might argue the same thing. You still live here on their land and benefit from someone else's dirty work.

But I'm not claiming a literal god-given right to the land. And you're really not telling me anything I don't already know. How about actually dealing with the issue instead of peddling ad hominems.

I see so if there is a break in the chain you can't have what was originally yours. How exactly does that jive with your native opinion here in Canada? Must be nice to have a rule book to go by, where do I get one?

In order to claim ownership, you should be able to demonstrate that you were there first. And just because a bunch of monotheistic desert tribes once occupied the land in question does not automatically confer future ownership rights on anyone who happens to share the same religion. That's a sharp contrast to the native land claim situation where there's often demonstrable evidence that the people living here today are direct descendants of the people who were displaced by European colonialism. It's handy for Israel to be able to use the methods of the conquerer while claiming the status of colonialism's victims.

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keep trying to hang that anti-semetism tag onme, though. I'd hate to deprive you of what seems to be your sole joy.

I don't need to, you're doing quite well on your own...

:lol:

You're pathetic. The best you can do is trot out the specious "criticism of Israel=Jew hate" paradigm, a premise so logically unsound that it's laughable.

Ad hominems is all you have.

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The Lebanese people are sick and tired of the shit Hezbollah stirs, true their no fans of Israel but at the same time they know Israel isn't the only repsonsible ones. The images you see on TV Lebanese people cheering on Hezbollah does not represent every Lebanese no matter how much the MSM tries to paint them that way..

Here's a Lebanese Forum, it's an interesting read:

Lebanese Forum Link

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Britian created this mess, where are they? Years ago my sympathy was with with the Jews, now it is with the Arabs who had their land appropriated and hostile neighbours dropped into their laps to contend with, and Britian who created the whole damn mess simply withdrew and left it to boil -

Kind of like dropping rats and terriers into the same small cage then walking away from it -

It really is amazing when one looks back on history and sees how STUPID the decisions were that were made by what was supposedly a Superior Ruling Class at the time.

Has anyone learned anything from this meddling in other countries and their affairs? Hell no it is still going on and on and on ....... creating one mess after another ..........

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Britian created this mess, where are they? Years ago my sympathy was with with the Jews, now it is with the Arabs who had their land appropriated and hostile neighbours dropped into their laps to contend with, and Britian who created the whole damn mess simply withdrew and left it to boil
After WW2 Britian wanted to get rid of Palistine. They tried to create a single multi-ethnic state where the Jews (33%) and Arabs (67%) would co-exist, however, the two groups squabbled too much to make that possible. As a result, the British came up with a plan to partition the territory into two states. The Arabs rejected that plan and they have been fighting ever since.
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Britian created this mess, where are they? Years ago my sympathy was with with the Jews, now it is with the Arabs who had their land appropriated and hostile neighbours dropped into their laps to contend with, and Britian who created the whole damn mess simply withdrew and left it to boil -

Kind of like dropping rats and terriers into the same small cage then walking away from it -

It really is amazing when one looks back on history and sees how STUPID the decisions were that were made by what was supposedly a Superior Ruling Class at the time.

Has anyone learned anything from this meddling in other countries and their affairs? Hell no it is still going on and on and on ....... creating one mess after another ..........

You might be right but laying the blame soley on Britain or others just takes away from the Palestinians own accountabilty to solve the situation as it now exists. Telling them to be adopt peace while at the same time telling how wronged they've been and how awful Israel is (not that you're saying that) just encourages their violence. The Palestinians need to be held accountable for their actions.

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What is truly amusing and ironic is someone who, he himself, is living on "stolen" land from the native inhabitants by genocide, is self-righteously lecturing a people who have far more of a right to inhabit literally a sliver of land than he has to live on his land stolen from natives who had it for 20,000 years. At least the Jews had been there before. Perhaps you practice what you preach Black Dog and give back everything you own to the people whom your predecessors stole from, mmm?

Well see, thing is I support efforts to do right by Canada's native population to make some kind of amends for the legacy of genocide and theft we continue to benefit from today. (Also: my predeccessors here didn't steal anything. That job was done by the time they arrived). As for the absurd claim that "the Jews had been there before," that assumes some kind of direct lineage between the former occupants of the land that is now Israel and Palestine and the people who founded the modern state of Israel who were mostly European Jews who would be hard pressed to find any connection to the land beyond sharing a religion with the former occupants. By the same logic, one could argue for the return of the Caliphate (after all, much of what is now the West was once Muslim territory).

What is even more amusing is your affirming the consequent comment about making the Jews more a target of hate and fear by merely existing. As if somehow they appeared out of no where and made a big land grab on their own. And ya nice dodge on the race and religion thing by claiming "ideology". It just so happens that about 95% of Israel is Jewish...

Try reading for comprehension. it is the actions which led to the creation of Israel's state, and subsequent action on the part of said state that are the source of fear and hatred. I made that pretty clear in my earlier post. keep trying to hang that anti-semetism tag onme, though. I'd hate to deprive you of what seems to be your sole joy.

The Jewish claim on Isreal is as legimate as any Aboriginal claim on land in Canada.

Bollocks.

Israel has just as much right to a state in that part of the world as do the Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, because both cultures ancestors are from there. What right does Palestine, Iran and Syria in firing rockets targeting cities, towns and villages in Israel filled with civilians? Of course Russia and France and Germany condenm Israelis right to defend themselves because they are making a fortune selling weaponry and other commodites to that part of the world. These countries have always backed the terrorists, why should anything change just because Hamas and Hezbellah are targeting inocent civilians, after all they are only Jewish? I suspect not much has changed since WW II for Germany with regards to Jews. I wonder how they would be reacting now if these same terrorists were targeting their civilian populations? I suspect they would wage war, all except the pansies in France who turned over their country to Germany with hardly a shot being fired. The word cowards comes to mind.

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Israel has just as much right to a state in that part of the world as do the Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, because both cultures ancestors are from there. What right does Palestine, Iran and Syria in firing rockets targeting cities, towns and villages in Israel filled with civilians? Of course Russia and France and Germany condenm Israelis right to defend themselves because they are making a fortune selling weaponry and other commodites to that part of the world. These countries have always backed the terrorists, why should anything change just because Hamas and Hezbellah are targeting inocent civilians, after all they are only Jewish? I suspect not much has changed since WW II for Germany with regards to Jews. I wonder how they would be reacting now if these same terrorists were targeting their civilian populations? I suspect they would wage war, all except the pansies in France who turned over their country to Germany with hardly a shot being fired. The word cowards comes to mind.

Wow. It's amazing how cut and dried things become when strippe dof all context or historic accuracy (I especially like the completely inaccurate dig at France and the slur against Germans: once again, it seems any race is free for the maligning save for the Jews.) Also, for all the hand-wringing over Hizzbullah's targetting of innocent civilians (incidentally, didn't this whole thing kick off because they were targetting actual military personnel?) you seem to be ignoring the fact that most of the casulaties from Israel's retaliation have been innocent civilians.

In any case, the solution would appear to be a less psychotic version of Argus's hoped for mini-genocide: an internationally policed DMZ between Israel and its neighbours.

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For the sake of understanding this, I hope, what IF the US or someone decided it would be a good idea to move a whole bunch of Afghanistan people to a safe country and establish a new territory or country within that country for them, taking over part of that country to do so?

They, someone, decided they should all be moved into Alberta and Alberta would then become a new country, separate and apart from Canada and we just lose that part of our country - and then they start fighting with the rest of Canada because they now want Saskatchewan or BC as well ----

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For the sake of understanding this, I hope, what IF the US or someone decided it would be a good idea to move a whole bunch of Afghanistan people to a safe country and establish a new territory or country within that country for them, taking over part of that country to do so?
No parallel. In 1945 Jews made up about 33% of the population of Palistine. You could argue that the UN partition plan gave too much of land to the Jews, however, the Jews were already there and were entitled to at least some of the land. The fact that millions of Jews later immigrated is immaterial.
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See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land.

Except for the the experiment part, this is a pretty good description of how Canada got it's start. The big difference here is that there are six (?) times as many Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza as there are natives living in Canada altogether, and Israel is about the size of Southern Ontario. If we had similar conditions the current issues we're facing in Caledonia would be much more severe and long-lasting.

IOW: fuck you.

Temper, temper.

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Blackdog your repeated refusal to acknowledge Jewish history accurately is tiresome. To describe Israel as a "neo-colonial experiment" based on "ethno-religious nationalism" and "stolen land" reflects your complete lack of respect for Judaism and Jewish culture because as you have mentioned in the past in many of your posts "you don't care" about the history of Judaism, and so you repeat such rhetoric.

The fact is most of us are aware that the Islam religion started in the 7th century. Before that time there were no "Muslims". That is a fact.

However there were in fact Jews dating back to Moses delivering the Jewish slaves from Egypt to Mt. Sinai and the creation of the ten commandments and then subsequent religion flowing from Abraham.

The origins of Judaism talks about a covenant or promise from God to deliver Jews to the kingdom of Israel and the historic reality is Jews settled in Canaan and engaged in battles with tribes living around them and those tribes were not Arabs or Muslims.

I do not care then to repeat the history of what happened to Israel and its Jews and their expulsion except to say you selectively ignore it all when you make comments that Israel "stole" land.

Jews and Israeli Jews for that matter, originate from the land of Israel and are aboriginals to that land. For you to try revise history and pretend Jews are not aboriginals from Israel is repulsive and odious and deliberate.

That said, anyone with a fair and open mind understands that since the ancient days of Israel people have come and gone and Muslims came after the Jews and after the Christians in time sequence.

Anyone who understands the origins of Islam also understands dhimmitude or the mulsim system of apartheid that segregated both Jews and Christians into ghettoes and treated them as second class citizens.

That is a fact and so is it a fact that Jews suffered from persecution and apartheid after dhimmitude was invoked by the Muslim states who did not seperate religion from state and never will and to this day will not.

Blackdog selectively forgets that while Jews were repeatedly expelled from Israel there has always been a contingent of Jews livining in Israel continuously since the days of Canaan, not withstanding all the expulsions and then the persecution and apartheid treatment of Jews in the subsequent Muslim Middle East.

For the Jews who went to Europe, they were of course persecuted continuously for 3,000 years including forced extermination, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, forced conversion and systemic and institutionalized persecution.

In 1791 when Jews were emancipated in France, it triggered off the true origins of modern Zionism but Blackdog probably does not care to remember that since the beginning of the religion, Jews have felt they are spiritually attached to the land of Israel and must return and die there. Neither Christianity or Islam has a comparable concept to being attached to the land by spiritual belief.

That said the Zionism that evolved in Europe merely was a reflection of the state of constant persecution and extermination Jews faced. Of course they dreamed of returning where they came from and dreaming of a country where they would no longer be persecuted and prevented from practicing their religion.

The cold hard reality is Jews would not have dreamed of returning to Israel had both Christians and Muslims treated them like equals. That is a fact.

So to pretend Zionism is a neocolonial experiment is idiotic. Zionism is merely a modern version of romanticism and escapism by a persecuted people and is not to be confused with the religious belief that Jews spiritually are connected to Israel soil. Blackdog has repeated in other posts that he does not care about the religious connection and feels it appropriate to discuss the desire for Jews to live in Israel as simply something that magically started after the holocaust.

While the holocaust certainly was the final catalyst, to anyone who bothers to read and understand Jewish history they would know Jews have never stopped believing they are connected and on their death return to Israel.

That said we know that Lord Belfour suggested two enclaves, one Jewish and one Muslim to try resolve a dispute between Jews and Muslims as to where they should live in Muslim with their conflicting historical beliefs.

The Belfour formula was classic imperialism. It wanted to perpetuate a divided, dysfunctional state doomed to continuous conflict so the British could rule through fermenting division. Divide and conquer, that is what the British did best.

What Blackdog also likes to forget is that there have been conflicting disputes as to land rights since the days of Canaan and that the Muslim people deliberately destroyed the Jews most sacred temple and deliberately built a Mosque over it as an insult and to this day the wall of the ancient synagige and the Mosque of Oman conflict in Jerusalem.

What Blackdog also likes to ignore is the fact that Muslims embraced anti-semitism fueled by the Orthodox Catholic Churches and Germans from the 1920's onward and to this day systemic anti-semitism including the preaching of the Protocols of Zion as truth and depicting Jews as drinking the blood of Arab children on Passover is a regular occurrence on t.v. as is t.v. shows, children's t.v. shows and wide spread press promoting the hatred of ALL Jews because in the Muslim world, Israeli Jews are not distinguished from other Jews and ALL Jews are portrayed as infidel. What Blckdog also selectively ignores is that to this day the majority of Muslims feel Israel should be wiped off the face of the map. The rhetoric about two states and living side by side does not exist in the real Muslim world. It is simply a concept repeated to the Western press while at the same time the same politicians say something else to their own Muslim constituents. That is documented fact. So is the hatred of Jews preached daily to Palestinian children by Hamas and the belief that Israel must be cleansed of all Jews and that it is acceptable to kill and terrorize Israeli civilians.

That said and I will say it one last time, Blackdog likes to forget that the 1947 partition plan pronounced by the United Nations was rejected by the Arab world, not Israel. It was the Arab world that decided unanimously and collectively to declare war and refuse to acknowledge ANY right for Jews to exist in a Jewish state in the Middle East. This followed their thousands of years of belief that Jews follow a defective religion, are inferior people, and are not entitled to any rights.

It was the Arab Council not Israel that told the Arabs living in Israel to leave. The Arab Council announced on every public speaker, on the radio and in announcements to all Arabs that they should leave Palestine and wait to return once the Arab armies wiped the Jews off the map. The speeches are there for anyone to read.

The historic fact is Israel completely out-numbered won a war the Arab world did not possibly think they could win. The fact is the 1949 border of Israel at the time it declared its independence was unknown and only after a war with the Arab nations did the post 1949, pre 1967 border emerge. That border in international law is known as a de facto border- and under international law that border emerges as being legally recognized if after an indefinite time period no one challenges it.

The fact is the West Bank was seized by Jordan and the Gaza was seized by Egypt.

The fact is from 1949 to 1967 the Arab world deliberately placed displaced Arab refugees in camps to use them as a political pawn in an attempt to wage a war of attrition against the existence of Israel.

The fact is the Arab kingdom has the wealth and the room to absorb and accommodate all Arab refugees but deliberately chose not to and to use them as a symbol to create a public back-lash against Israel.

The fact is there was an uprising in Jordan where the vast majority of Palestinians lived and then King Hussein required his Beduin Arab army to protect him from assassination and the take over of this British created artificial country from Palestinian rule by the majority population of Palestinians. The fact is

Palestinians were unwelcome in Egypt, Lebanaon, Syria, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia and anywhere else in the Arab world they went. They were treated with suspicion and hatred and discriminated against by their fellow Arabs and Muslims.

The fact is as much as Blackdog would like to depict Israel as a racist state, unlike ANY Arab country the Israel constitution guarantees Arab and Muslim Israelis the right to receive their government services in Arabic, to practice their religion in freedom, to vote and to own land.

The fact is from 1949 to 1967 and even after that date, Arab and Jewish Israelis have co-existed and for that matter the majority of Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank used to work in Israel.

The fact is the current conflict has been fueled by fundamentalist extremism by Shiite Muslim terroist cells including the largest, Hezbollah financed by Iran. The fact is most of the extremist terrorist cells are notnecessarily Palestinians but Arabs with full citizenship dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

The fact is Intifadah, Hamas, and countless terrorist cells such as Fatah, have nothing in common with each other except for their hatred of Jews.

The fact is Jews in Israel have no where to go. The fact is they live in a tiny country surrounded on all sides by people who repeatedly state they want them wiped out.

The fact is Jews in Israel have no where to go and are in a state o seige and basic struggle to exist.

The fact is that innocent Jewisg Israelis, non Jewish Israelis and Palestinians now are caught in between a war of attrition fueled by Muslim fundamentalists.

The fact is the fundamentalist Jewish movement has been contained and the current Israeli government, Kadima is a coalition of right and left wing political parties whose sole ideology at this point is trying to exist.

The fact is that up until a month or so ago, the current and new Israeli Prime Minister returned back the Gaza and most of the West Bank and was on the verge of releasing hundreds of Palestinians when Hamas deliberately launched a counter terrorist offensive designed to humiliate and undermine the attempts of Mr. Abbas to create a Palestinian nation in the Gaza and West Bank and declare a peace treaty with Israel.

The fact is Yasir Arafat was offered 95% of all the land and items he requested by Yitzhak Rabin and then at the last second failed to sign a peace treaty with Israel because what really happened was that if he signed this treaty his drug routes for his opium and cannabis would have been shut down and his Swiss bank accounts would have been opened up and the money released and used to fund Palestinian government operations.

The fact is Hezbollah deliberately engaged in an invasion of Israel and kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and killed 8 others to try put pressure on Israel to back down from fighting Hamas only now it has made it impossible for Hamas to return the Israeli prisoner and engage in a peace treaty because Hezbollah will ridicule Hamas. The fact is Hezbollah is in a pissing contest to try show Hamas it is tougher when it comes to fighting Israel. The fact is Hezbollah flourishes in Lebanon because of Syria and Hamas is funded by Iran and Saudi Arabia.

The fact is Saudi Arabia and Iran choose to finance terrorist cells while ignoring providing any charity or aid to Palestinians.

The fact is when Israel has attempted to provide medical and social services to Palestinians Hamas has threatened to kill any Palestinian that takes such help.

So Blackdog and his selective memory contribute little to this tragic dialogue other then to reinforce the fact that sheltered cozy little know it alls like Blackdog wil never know what it is like to experience death and violence.

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Rue this book may interest you.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9257001.html

Author : Melani McAlister

Title : Epic Encounters

Culture, Media, and U.S. Interests in the Middle East since 1945 Updated Edition, with a Post-9/11 Chapter.

Described how the interest in the middle east since the early 1900s. It is from the US point of view. and clearly shows through media how a subconcious interest in the middle east is established in the American psyche. A great read if you want to know how Israel has become a great interest by the U.S.

Will shed light on todays conflict as well. All about perception and portraying different peoples in different lights.

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See, I know Israel's history. A radical neocolonial experiment in ethno-religious nationalism built on stolen land.

Technically speaking, virtually all of us are living on "stolen land". However far back you go, where are you going to find any nation whose people never conquered anyone, never took land from another tribe, nationi, or people. At least this one was done as humanely as possible, at the behest of the international community.

The reason Israel has never known peace is because it's history and its ideological underpinings make peace impossible.

I disagree. The reason it has not known peace is because of the fanaticism, hatred and ruthlessness of the surrounding governments. governments which are entirely tyrannical, brutal, vicious, and illegitimate. Rather than taking in the refugees which were the product of the war those very nations began, they have insisted on keeping them in refugee camps for generations, all the while feeding their sense of victimhood, their illusion they will one day return to the land they abandoned, that Israel can somehow be made to disappear. Israel offered to give Gaza to Egypt. Egypt refused. Israel offered to let Jordan, which took much of what was supposed to be another independant Palestinian state (Jordan is part of Palestine) to take the rest of the West Bank as well. Jordan refused. Think of the middle east with the West Bank as part of Jordan and Gaza as part of Egypt. Now you'd have a chance for peace. But the hatred of the surrounding Arabs wouldn't let that happen. They couldn't ever admit that Israel was there to stay, and they couldn't do anything about it.

Quite simply, Israel was founded on the belief that Jews have an inherent right to the land,

Ironically, the Arabs believe the same thing, though I'm sure you'll never think to criticise them for it.

As an aside, it's amusing that some posters can slime entire populations and cravelny whinge that their race doesn't matter (even though its part of a pattern of antipathy towards said population), but when I speak out against a state (and not a people), it's regarded as a sign of some racial hatred. IOW: fuck you.

I find it interesting myself how some self-righteous protectors of freedom and democracy repeatedly condemn everything Israel does, condemn Israel's very existence, while blithely overlooking far, far worse brutalities by Arabs, by Asians, by Africans, by almost anyone who isn't a Jew. Somehow, Israel is worse than all other nations, and those detractors who are its constant critics always insist it has nothing whatever to do with them hating Jews.

But in many cases - it does.

People who really give a damn about human rights speak out against China, against Russia, against North Korea, against Sudan, against the world's most brutal nations. Isreal? Israel is a piker. And unlike the others, its in a state of perpetual war, with legions of crazed savages trying desperately to claw or dig or squirm through or under or fly over the walls and fences that protect them to get at a Jew they can kill. They fly hang gliders over, they put on scuba gear to swim around, they dig tunnels underneath, taking months if necessary, anything, any amount of effort, just to get at a Jew or two so they can kill them and die the glorious death of a martyr to Allah.

The Israelis have lived like that for 50 years. What does that do to the collective psyche of a nation, of a people? And then you have smug, self-righteous assholes in the west, barren of imagination, whey faced bigots, fat assed, well-protected, never having known danger or want or hunger, who sneer at the "Israelis" for being mean to those poor Arab folks - poor Arab folks, who, btw, spit on everything the granola crunching, laté sucking socialists believe in.

Years ago, Golda Meir called it. She said there would be peace when Arabs learned to love their children more than they hated Jews. She was prescient. But even she could not have imagined the day when mothers would urge their sons and husbands to go and blow themselves up, when mothers would cheer and hand out candies and celebrate when their children die killing Jews. How can there ever be peace with such people.

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