Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

Israel Invades Lebanon


Recommended Posts

The Lebanese people are sick and tired of the shit Hezbollah stirs, true their no fans of Israel but at the same time they know Israel isn't the only repsonsible ones. The images you see on TV Lebanese people cheering on Hezbollah does not represent every Lebanese no matter how much the MSM tries to paint them that way..

Here's a Lebanese Forum, it's an interesting read:

Lebanese Forum Link

And yet, according to the news, the Lebanese government cannot do anything about Hezbollah, because if it tried to use their Army against them the Army would fall apart. Too many of them support Hezbollah, and would turn against the Lebanese government.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 144
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Britian created this mess, where are they? Years ago my sympathy was with with the Jews, now it is with the Arabs who had their land appropriated and hostile neighbours dropped into their laps to contend with, and Britian who created the whole damn mess simply withdrew and left it to boil -

Not entirely true. What Britain did was negotiate a new country into existence in waht was then Palestine. It was called Jordan. As for the rest of the land, there were terrorist attacks and violence commited against the British from both sides, and the British finally washed their hands of it and handed it over to the United Nations. It was the United Nations which decided to split up the land that was left, give half to Jews and half to Arabs.

Then, after the wars, Jordan absorbed a big chunk of the land which had been set aside for Arabs, and Egypt absorbed a big chunk on the other side. At least Jordan had the decency to give citizenship to all the Arab people there on their territory. None of the other Arab nations have been willing to do that, preferring to have refugee camps holding hundreds of thousands of people for generations on end.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, for all the hand-wringing over Hizzbullah's targetting of innocent civilians (incidentally, didn't this whole thing kick off because they were targetting actual military personnel?) you seem to be ignoring the fact that most of the casulaties from Israel's retaliation have been innocent civilians.

Here is the thing. Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon and had nothing more to do with them. Yet Hezbolah continues to fire rockets and mortars across the border into Irsrael. Why? Then Hezbollah attacks an Israeli border point and kills and kidnaps Israeli soldiers. Why? What possible justification can there be for this?

As for Hezbolah targeting Israeli soldiers, this organization has shown in the past it prefers to target civilians when it can get at them. It simply wasn't able to this time. They attacked a military group, then melted away into the general population. Its offices and organizers are smack dab in the middle of Lebanese towns and cities. Of course civilians are going to die as Israel tries to get at them.

In any case, the solution would appear to be a less psychotic version of Argus's hoped for mini-genocide: an internationally policed DMZ between Israel and its neighbours.

I said nothing about genocide. I said go in, push the people out, bulldoze the buildings, and establish a corridor which would keep crazed terrorists from rocketing Israel. I would PREFER, greatly prefer, the Lebanese government to get its act together and use its own troops to prevent attacks on its neighbour but it does not look like they are capable of doing that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I hope both sides use restraint.

The soldiers should be returned. And both sides should return to negotiations.

How do you negotiate with a group which insists on firing rockets into your towns and villages?

Pay them ofF? Promise to convert?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope both sides use restraint.

The soldiers should be returned. And both sides should return to negotiations.

How do you negotiate with a group which insists on firing rockets into your towns and villages?

Pay them ofF? Promise to convert?

At the moment, they are involved in a continuing escalation which might end in re-occupying Lebanon and Gaza. As I originally said, the soldiers should be returned. A return to negotiation should resume after things have cooled off.

At the moment, things could go to full out war.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope both sides use restraint.

The soldiers should be returned. And both sides should return to negotiations.

How do you negotiate with a group which insists on firing rockets into your towns and villages?

Pay them ofF? Promise to convert?

At the moment, they are involved in a continuing escalation which might end in re-occupying Lebanon and Gaza. As I originally said, the soldiers should be returned. A return to negotiation should resume after things have cooled off.

At the moment, things could go to full out war.

I guess there comes a point when you can't negotiatiate any more. Eight Israeli soldiers died in two ambushes and two now kidnapped. Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah is 100% responsible for all the death, destruction and pain he's caused to the poor Lebanese civilians. He should have thought ithat one out before he started this war. It seem terrorists are too stupid to think about peace. Lebanon is also responsible for harbouring and protecting a designated terrorist organization.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope both sides use restraint.

The soldiers should be returned. And both sides should return to negotiations.

How do you negotiate with a group which insists on firing rockets into your towns and villages?

Pay them ofF? Promise to convert?

At the moment, they are involved in a continuing escalation which might end in re-occupying Lebanon and Gaza. As I originally said, the soldiers should be returned. A return to negotiation should resume after things have cooled off.

At the moment, things could go to full out war.

I guess there comes a point when you can't negotiatiate any more. Eight Israeli soldiers died in two ambushes and two now kidnapped. Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah is 100% responsible for all the death, destruction and pain he's caused to the poor Lebanese civilians. He should have thought ithat one out before he started this war. It seem terrorists are too stupid to think about peace. Lebanon is also responsible for harbouring and protecting a designated terrorist organization.

I still think Israel might end up in a far worse situation. I know they want to act rather than accept constant kidnapping and attacks but they went through this before with Lebanon and it resulted in 25 years of terrible outcomes for everyone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say, I am a bit disappointed in Harper, I would like to be the first to say he doesn't speak for Canada (well, not all of it, and certainly not me) on this one.

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/World...rc=w071379A.xml

Harper, on his first major international foray, hadn't even touched down in Europe before aligning himself firmly with the United States and Israel in the latest conflagration.
I think Israel should be expected to declare or acknowledge an 'official state of war', just as Lebanon should equally take responsibility either for failing to denounce (and fight against) Hizbollah, or failing to support them and declaring war on Israel.

As far as Black Dog's 'nuanced summary' of the State of Israel goes, he's not all wrong. What some people here have mixed up is the context. The comparison should read: The UN (or a US/UK coalition, but according to Canada, overwhelming force) decides to award Canada back to the Natives. From the Gaspe Peninsula to Banff, 400kms North of the 49th inclusive. Then the Natives decide that there must be a 'democratic majority' of Natives, so most of the 'whites' (or overseas settlers) are not allowed to live on this land, but are allowed to work there, so they have to bus it in and out every day. Taxes, an allotment of water, most everything is arbitrary and up to them as to what will be left for you.

How many people would not consider this 'unjust'? (I realize most would not strap a dynamite vest on in order to protest, but who can say after a few decades?)

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a thread about Isreal and Palestine and I for one would like to see it continue WITHOUT any off topic annoying references to Indians and land claims in Canada, every thread here seems to be taken over sooner or later with the indian theme - I noticed an attempt was made and ignored, thank you for that!

I have made it a point to read biographies of leaders on both sides of this issue, to talk to people on both sides of the issue, to study both sides and damn if I can even begin to figure out a solution. Both sides seem to have legitimate points, both sides seem to be at fault in some way...........

To suggest the Jews are totally without fault or aggression is so much bull.

I sympathize with the land grab thing being - well - not nice - , but not the violence. Historically Britian created most of the messes still plaguing the world today -- and not just in Isreal.

I say make the Brits step up to the plate and resolve it. ;) They're overdue for some blame in the worlds problems -

Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as Black Dog's 'nuanced summary' of the State of Israel goes, he's not all wrong. What some people here have mixed up is the context. The comparison should read: The UN (or a US/UK coalition, but according to Canada, overwhelming force) decides to award Canada back to the Natives. From the Gaspe Peninsula to Banff, 400kms North of the 49th inclusive.

Little problem with that comparison, flea. Canada is a nation with its own government, and one of the world's more succesful ones. Palestine was not and never had been a nation, and was always just a part of someone else's outer territories. It was under UN control when the UN decided to split it up.

And that was half a century ago.

What keeps the pot boiling are Arab governments which keep people in refugee camps and continue to inspire them to 'resist" and hope Israel will somehow magically go away.

The West Bank should be joined to Jordan, and Gaza to Egypt. That would end all the problems, and I bet Israel would agree to it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What keeps the pot boiling are Arab governments which keep people in refugee camps and continue to inspire them to 'resist" and hope Israel will somehow magically go away.

The West Bank should be joined to Jordan, and Gaza to Egypt. That would end all the problems, and I bet Israel would agree to it.

Agreed but I kinda doubt the Pals. would agree to it either they do not want peace all they really want is the destruction of Israel.

Israel's last resort

After withdrawal, Hamas and Hezbollah have waged endless, ruthless war

Eleven months ago, Israel withdrew from every last inch of the Gaza Strip. They dismantled all military bases, turned over functioning greenhouses that could employ 4,000 people, expelled all 7,500 Israeli settlers at a huge financial and political cost and declared the lines that divide Israel from Gaza to be an international frontier, making Gaza the first independent Palestinian territory ever.

Everyone's expectation was that the Palestinians, so treated, would show the world what they could achieve with freedom. Alas, they have shown all too well. Not one day of peace has followed. The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout, when Palestinian forces fired rockets into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. The final straw was the tunneling under the border with Israel, the attack on an Israeli tank and the point-blank murder of two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping of a third.

A few days later, inspired by the rhetorical threats of Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah of Lebanon joined Hamas by attacking Israel from the north. They killed eight Israeli soldiers, kidnapped two others and began firing rockets into Israel.

The Palestinians have given the lie to virtually all the scenarios so hopefully envisaged by their friends. They did not construct schools, roads and hospitals; they made no effort to turn Gaza into a thriving state. They elected a radical Islamic Hamas government. They permitted the smuggling of huge quantities of weapons and terrorists while creating new bases for terror. Palestinian society has descended ever more into advanced anarchy.

more here

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/435068p-366373c.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a thread about Isreal and Palestine and I for one would like to see it continue WITHOUT any off topic annoying references to Indians and land claims in Canada, every thread here seems to be taken over sooner or later with the indian theme - I noticed an attempt was made and ignored, thank you for that!

I know it's the Canadian way to pretend to be the world's leader in human rights while sweeping the aboriginal problem under the rug, but it's a little tough to stomach listening to someone lecture on "stolen land" when they themselves are living on "stolen land". It is relevant and is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

I sympathize with the land grab thing being - well - not nice - , but not the violence. Historically Britian created most of the messes still plaguing the world today -- and not just in Isreal.

At least we're on to Britain now and not the US :rolleyes: What about the French in Indochina? The Dutch in Southern Africa?

How about we hold the people accountable who are firing missiles into Israel and crossing international borders to attack? Why not take into account that Israelis made huge gesture of peace by walking away from Gaza? Instead you guys always fall back on the bigotry of low expections for one group and unreasonably high expectations for another.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That said and I will say it one last time, Blackdog likes to forget that the 1947 partition plan pronounced by the United Nations was rejected by the Arab world, not Israel. It was the Arab world that decided unanimously and collectively to declare war and refuse to acknowledge ANY right for Jews to exist in a Jewish state in the Middle East. This followed their thousands of years of belief that Jews follow a defective religion, are inferior people, and are not entitled to any rights.

I don't forget: I just don't see the relevance. Anyone woukld have rejected the original partition plan, which handed the majority of the land (including all the best land) to the minority population.

It was the Arab Council not Israel that told the Arabs living in Israel to leave. The Arab Council announced on every public speaker, on the radio and in announcements to all Arabs that they should leave Palestine and wait to return once the Arab armies wiped the Jews off the map. The speeches are there for anyone to read.

Myth. According to Israeli historian and transfer advocate Benny Morris, some Arabs (women,children, the elderly) were told to flee. But Morris finds no evidence of a blanket call for evacuation.

Had such a blanket order (or series of orders) been given, it would have found an echo in the thousands of documents produced by the Haganah's Intelligence Service, the IDF Intelligence Service, the Jewish Agency's Political Department Arab Division, the Foreign Ministry Middle East Affairs Department; or in the memoranda and dispatches of the various British and American diplomatic posts in the area (in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, Amman, Beirut, Damascus, and Cairo); or in the various radio monitoring services (such as the BBC's). Any or all of these would have produced reports, memoranda, or correspondence referring to the Arab order and quoting from it. But no such reference to or quotation from such an order or series of orders exists in the contemporary documentation. This documentation, it should be noted, includes daily, almost hourly, monitoring of Arab radio broadcasts, the Arab press inside and outside Palestine, and statements by the Arab and Palestinian Arab leaders. -Morris (Tikkun, Jan/Feb 1990, p80)
So Blackdog and his selective memory contribute little to this tragic dialogue other then to reinforce the fact that sheltered cozy little know it alls like Blackdog wil never know what it is like to experience death and violence.

I'm not sure what your cut'n'paste of historical tidbits and Zionist talking points is suppossed to prove.

Technically speaking, virtually all of us are living on "stolen land". However far back you go, where are you going to find any nation whose people never conquered anyone, never took land from another tribe, nationi, or people. At least this one was done as humanely as possible, at the behest of the international community

To bad the people actually living on the land didn't agree with the plan.

I disagree. The reason it has not known peace is because of the fanaticism, hatred and ruthlessness of the surrounding governments. governments which are entirely tyrannical, brutal, vicious, and illegitimate. Rather than taking in the refugees which were the product of the war those very nations began, they have insisted on keeping them in refugee camps for generations, all the while feeding their sense of victimhood, their illusion they will one day return to the land they abandoned, that Israel can somehow be made to disappear. Israel offered to give Gaza to Egypt. Egypt refused. Israel offered to let Jordan, which took much of what was supposed to be another independant Palestinian state (Jordan is part of Palestine) to take the rest of the West Bank as well. Jordan refused. Think of the middle east with the West Bank as part of Jordan and Gaza as part of Egypt. Now you'd have a chance for peace. But the hatred of the surrounding Arabs wouldn't let that happen. They couldn't ever admit that Israel was there to stay, and they couldn't do anything about it.

Israel plays a vital role in keeping the heat off the corrupt Arab regimes in the region, this is true. And I'm also certain much of the resentment derives from the manner in which Israel was created, the broken promises of the colonial powers and the precieved interference by the west. IOW the people of these lands are victims, of their own leadershuip, of Israeli and western colonialism and even of their own victimhood.

Ironically, the Arabs believe the same thing, though I'm sure you'll never think to criticise them for it.

Seeing as how they were there first before being displaced, I'm willing to give them a bit more slack on that point.

I find it interesting myself how some self-righteous protectors of freedom and democracy repeatedly condemn everything Israel does, condemn Israel's very existence, while blithely overlooking far, far worse brutalities by Arabs, by Asians, by Africans, by almost anyone who isn't a Jew. Somehow, Israel is worse than all other nations, and those detractors who are its constant critics always insist it has nothing whatever to do with them hating Jews.

But in many cases - it does.

Blah blah blah...same old horseshit.

People who really give a damn about human rights speak out against China, against Russia, against North Korea, against Sudan, against the world's most brutal nations. Isreal? Israel is a piker. And unlike the others, its in a state of perpetual war, with legions of crazed savages trying desperately to claw or dig or squirm through or under or fly over the walls and fences that protect them to get at a Jew they can kill. They fly hang gliders over, they put on scuba gear to swim around, they dig tunnels underneath, taking months if necessary, anything, any amount of effort, just to get at a Jew or two so they can kill them and die the glorious death of a martyr to Allah.

The Israelis have lived like that for 50 years. What does that do to the collective psyche of a nation, of a people? And then you have smug, self-righteous assholes in the west, barren of imagination, whey faced bigots, fat assed, well-protected, never having known danger or want or hunger, who sneer at the "Israelis" for being mean to those poor Arab folks - poor Arab folks, who, btw, spit on everything the granola crunching, laté sucking socialists believe in.

Years ago, Golda Meir called it. She said there would be peace when Arabs learned to love their children more than they hated Jews. She was prescient. But even she could not have imagined the day when mothers would urge their sons and husbands to go and blow themselves up, when mothers would cheer and hand out candies and celebrate when their children die killing Jews. How can there ever be peace with such people.

So whatever Israel does is therefore justified. hell, it's not like the Palestinians are even human, right? Funny how I can target the actions of the Israeli state and be accused of racism, yet openly racist crap like this is acceptable?

Link to post
Share on other sites
know it's the Canadian way to pretend to be the world's leader in human rights while sweeping the aboriginal problem under the rug, but it's a little tough to stomach listening to someone lecture on "stolen land" when they themselves are living on "stolen land". It is relevant and is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Then take it to a thread about aboringial land claims and other injustices, there are enough of them here, take your pick - it seems to be the all consuming topic of this forum.

People have a right to discuss other issues without being beat over the head endlessly by the aboriginal theme - a thread about the Middle East is about the Middle East. Its like trying to have a conversation with adults while a bunch of twoyear olds are whining and demanding your attention -

Watching the news last night was horrific, its just a blood bath over there, almost genocide. They arent even picking targets just firing into residential areas, where ever the hell they want to - a>

As Israeli military forces launched strikes in Lebanon this week in response to the Hizballah cross-border attack in which at least eight soldiers were killed and two captured, the defense chief of staff warned that Israel could "turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." A more precise estimate, perhaps, would be 38.

It was back in 1968, in response to a Palestinian terrorist attack on an El Al aircraft at Athens airport, that Israeli commandos blew up 13 planes at Beirut airport belonging to Lebanon's Middle East Airlines.

Then, as now, Israel intended to warn Lebanese authorities to curb the activities of terrorist groups operating in its sovereign territory. Time will tell whether Israel's tactic, which has included bombing the runways of Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, produces the desired results, and leads Hizballah to free the two Israeli soldiers. But there is a real risk that the move may have the same unintended consequence of the raid 38 years ago: pushing Lebanon further into a spiral of internal strife and even a civil war that embroils the entire Middle East. ........

Israel has intensified its attacks on Lebanon as jets launched fresh strikes on Beirut airport, the road to the Syrian capital and a power plant.

The Israelis concentrated on the southern suburbs of the city, known as a stronghold of Hezbollah militants.

The offensive, which has killed more than 50 Lebanese civilians since Wednesday, follows the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah.

The escalation has sparked international calls for restraint............

It can only be called genocide, suburbs are being targeted and the objective is to level the city -

Link to post
Share on other sites
It can only be called genocide, suburbs are being targeted and the objective is to level the city
I wish people would stop misusing terms like genocide - aerial bombing actually kills relatively few people - its main purpose its to destroy infrastructure and terrorize the populace. You can criticize Isreali tatics but don't call it genocide.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hezbollah like other terrorist garbage hides among civilians The Israelis are targeting the infrastructure to prevent guns and ammunition from entering the country they are not attacking civilians while we know Hezbollah is as they kill civilians by firing rockets into Israel populations.

Hamas and Hezbolla have created this situation and are to blame for civilian casualties. Heck Israel actually dropped leaflets telling people to get out, like Hebellah would do that now.

Israel WITHDREW from Gaza - the result - 1100 rocket attacks and an attack over the border through a 670 metre tunnel they dug out some "European guaranteed" border that is.

Israel WITHDREW from Lebanon but H. did hot disarm as obligated to do under international law (SC R) and continued to attack Israel.

The Arabs were not ethnically cleansed but we know what would happen to Israel if they lose this one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rue this book may interest you.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9257001.html

Author : Melani McAlister

Title : Epic Encounters

Culture, Media, and U.S. Interests in the Middle East since 1945 Updated Edition, with a Post-9/11 Chapter.

Described how the interest in the middle east since the early 1900s. It is from the US point of view. and clearly shows through media how a subconcious interest in the middle east is established in the American psyche. A great read if you want to know how Israel has become a great interest by the U.S.

Will shed light on todays conflict as well. All about perception and portraying different peoples in different lights.

thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's clear up some more misconceptions from Blackdog.

Firstly the partition plan he refers to back in 1947 proposed by the UN, did not propose handing the majority of land to the minority of people as he stated. That is pure 100% b.s. If you look at the partition plan, it provided for a tiny enclave of land for Jews already living in the area at that time referred to as Palestine. So how Blackdog can make the comment it was the majority of land is absolutely amazing. Anyone looking at the proposed enclaves can see that the Muslim population was actually offered much more land and the tiny enclave proposed to the Jews of Palestine was about the size of Etobicoke. Then again Blackdog's understanding of Middle East history is quite selective.

Blackdog also made another false statement. He referred to an anti-Israel, revisionist called Benny Morris who is a self-hating Jew and denies he is Jewish as a valid reference point to contend the Arab League did not issue announcements to the Arab population of Palestine to vacate Israel. This is again absolute b.s.

There are recordings, and countless documentation from Muslims and Arab Jews as to the calls by Mullahs from roof-tops and over loud-speakers telling Muslims to leave. This is a substantiated fact as much as Blackdog would like to deny it.

Blackdog made a comment that its not like Palestinians are even human or have human rights. No one, in any post on this topic or related topics has attacked Palestinian civilians or questioned their human rights. What Blackdog is incapable of doing is seperating his hatred for Israel from the concept of defending its right to protect itself from terrorist attacks. That is the issue. The issue is as we all agree, BOTH Palestinians and Jews should be able to live side by side. This can't happen if Palestine is dominated by terrorists. So these comments about Palestinians not being human are odious and not helpful or germaine to the dialogue. To support Israel does not automatically suggest one does not feel Palestinians have the right to freedom and peace.

As for Blackdog's comment about "Zionist talking points" that is about as justified and as appropriate as saying Blackdog gets all his ideas from reading selective anti-semetic diatribes he likes to reproduce.

The fact is the posters in regards to this debate unlike Blackdog have done a good job presenting their views and if Blackdog wants my respect he should try make some salient points other then crudely dismissing anything that doesn't fit his narrow, stereotypes of what he thinks Zionism is.

The fact is Blackdog's arguements are predicated on his closed mind and blind docile acceptance of the belief that it is politically wrong and unfair for Jews to have a Jewish state. It is no more unfair then it is for Muslims to have Muslim states.

I myself because I support Israel's right to exist do not appreciate Blackdog's simplistic attempts to portray me as a Zionist or anyone who support's Israel's right to exist as Zionists. That is b.s.

In fact, I do not want to live in any secular state. I prefer to live in Canada where religion and state (except when it comes to Catholic public schools) are kept seperate. I love being a Canadian. My support of Israel is not because as a Jew I want to live in a Jewish state. To me it is based on two reasons; i-fairness and natural justice, ii-a respect and spiritual connection to the land of Israel.

I do not hesitate to say that the bast majority of Jews as is the case with most non Jewish Israeli supporters also want Palestinians to live in freedom and without war. For us its not a matter of a good guy and a bad guy, it is about two displaced, cursed people and the vast majority of us wanting this conflict put to a rest and fundamentalists of any religion shut up.

Man wouldn't it be nice if we could all live without fundamentalist religions dictating how we govern ourselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Firstly the partition plan he refers to back in 1947 proposed by the UN, did not propose handing the majority of land to the minority of people as he stated. That is pure 100% b.s. If you look at the partition plan, it provided for a tiny enclave of land for Jews already living in the area at that time referred to as Palestine. So how Blackdog can make the comment it was the majority of land is absolutely amazing. Anyone looking at the proposed enclaves can see that the Muslim population was actually offered much more land and the tiny enclave proposed to the Jews of Palestine was about the size of Etobicoke. Then again Blackdog's understanding of Middle East history is quite selective.

Let's see: under the 1947 partition plan, 55 per cent of the territory was to be allotted to the new Jewish state. At the time, Jews made up about 33 per cent of the population in the territory that was to be partitioned. Do the math.

Blackdog also made another false statement. He referred to an anti-Israel, revisionist called Benny Morris who is a self-hating Jew and denies he is Jewish as a valid reference point to contend the Arab League did not issue announcements to the Arab population of Palestine to vacate Israel. This is again absolute b.s.

Subjective accusations ("self-hating Jew"?) or questionable claims that aren't backed up by evidence (Morris, is an ardent Zionist: how one can be a self-hating, self-denying Zionist is beyond me), serve only to damage your own credibility.

There are recordings, and countless documentation from Muslims and Arab Jews as to the calls by Mullahs from roof-tops and over loud-speakers telling Muslims to leave. This is a substantiated fact as much as Blackdog would like to deny it.

Again: there's no dispute that some Arabs left the territory in question voluntarily. The dispute is over the degre of organization behind it. Care to offer some evidence?

Blackdog made a comment that its not like Palestinians are even human or have human rights. No one, in any post on this topic or related topics has attacked Palestinian civilians or questioned their human rights. What Blackdog is incapable of doing is seperating his hatred for Israel from the concept of defending its right to protect itself from terrorist attacks. That is the issue. The issue is as we all agree, BOTH Palestinians and Jews should be able to live side by side. This can't happen if Palestine is dominated by terrorists. So these comments about Palestinians not being human are odious and not helpful or germaine to the dialogue. To support Israel does not automatically suggest one does not feel Palestinians have the right to freedom and peace.

Please offer some evidence of my purported "hatred of issue".

As for Blackdog's comment about "Zionist talking points" that is about as justified and as appropriate as saying Blackdog gets all his ideas from reading selective anti-semetic diatribes he likes to reproduce.

Please highlight any instances of anti-semetism in my posts (in context).

The fact is the posters in regards to this debate unlike Blackdog have done a good job presenting their views and if Blackdog wants my respect he should try make some salient points other then crudely dismissing anything that doesn't fit his narrow, stereotypes of what he thinks Zionism is.

I believe the reposte here is "it takes one to know one." Or something.

The fact is Blackdog's arguements are predicated on his closed mind and blind docile acceptance of the belief that it is politically wrong and unfair for Jews to have a Jewish state. It is no more unfair then it is for Muslims to have Muslim states.

Please show where I have stated that " it is politically wrong and unfair for Jews to have a Jewish state." I know I've questioned Zionisms compatability with true liberal democracy, but don't think I've ever sugessted what you say I suggest. (I'm certainly no advocate of state religion in any form.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a pretty even handed analysis of the current mess.

At this point, though, placing blame is less important than figuring out how to put on the brakes - and that's where the authority problem of which I spoke earlier really comes back to bite. The refrain of the Israeli right that Israel "has no partner" isn't true, but sometimes too many partners can be worse than none at all. One of the greatest problems in resolving both the current crises is the fact that Israel's opponents are non-state factions that aren't answerable to any central authority. Israel can reach an agreement with one faction, but that doesn't prevent a rival militia or a splinter group from disavowing the accord a day later. That in fact seems to be precisely how the Gaza crisis started; to all appearances, the raid on Shalit's unit was carried out on orders of Hamas' expatriate leadership without consulting Haniyeh, and was timed to pre-empt Haniyeh's agreement with Abbas over the prisoners' document. Likewise, Hizbullah carries out its own foreign policy and reserves, to the exclusion of the Lebanese government, the right to define and fight for Lebanese interests. There is no single person or entity that can negotiate a firm end to hostilities on either front.

....

The fragmentation of the anti-Israeli side seems to escape most people here. In some cases its simple laziness and in others its a deliberate attempt to demonize the whole Arab population.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Technically speaking, virtually all of us are living on "stolen land". However far back you go, where are you going to find any nation whose people never conquered anyone, never took land from another tribe, nationi, or people. At least this one was done as humanely as possible, at the behest of the international community

To bad the people actually living on the land didn't agree with the plan.

You're saying United Nations resolutions and decisions are invalid unless everyone agrees?

People who really give a damn about human rights speak out against China, against Russia, against North Korea, against Sudan, against the world's most brutal nations. Isreal? Israel is a piker. And unlike the others, its in a state of perpetual war, with legions of crazed savages trying desperately to claw or dig or squirm through or under or fly over the walls and fences that protect them to get at a Jew they can kill. They fly hang gliders over, they put on scuba gear to swim around, they dig tunnels underneath, taking months if necessary, anything, any amount of effort, just to get at a Jew or two so they can kill them and die the glorious death of a martyr to Allah.

The Israelis have lived like that for 50 years. What does that do to the collective psyche of a nation, of a people? And then you have smug, self-righteous assholes in the west, barren of imagination, whey faced bigots, fat assed, well-protected, never having known danger or want or hunger, who sneer at the "Israelis" for being mean to those poor Arab folks - poor Arab folks, who, btw, spit on everything the granola crunching, laté sucking socialists believe in.

Years ago, Golda Meir called it. She said there would be peace when Arabs learned to love their children more than they hated Jews. She was prescient. But even she could not have imagined the day when mothers would urge their sons and husbands to go and blow themselves up, when mothers would cheer and hand out candies and celebrate when their children die killing Jews. How can there ever be peace with such people.

So whatever Israel does is therefore justified.

I think it's certainly justified in taking extreme measures to protect its security, certainly justified in retaliating against Arabs firing rockets into its towns and cities.

hell, it's not like the Palestinians are even human, right? Funny how I can target the actions of the Israeli state and be accused of racism, yet openly racist crap like this is acceptable?

Openly racist crap? Name one thing about what I wrote above which is racist in even the slightest part?

As for you - we used to have a guy on another discussion group who would post nothing but crime stories about Black criminals. But I'm not racist, he would say. I'm just posting crime stories. But it wasn't coincidence every single story featured a Black criminal.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Watching the news last night was horrific, its just a blood bath over there, almost genocide. They arent even picking targets just firing into residential areas, where ever the hell they want to -

Utter horse shit. If they were doing that Palestinian deaths would already be in the high hundreds. On the other hand, the Lebanese are firing rockets indescriminately at Israeli cities and towns.

Apparently this doesn't bother you.

It can only be called genocide,y -

If you're too ignorant to know what the word means, yes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The fragmentation of the anti-Israeli side seems to escape most people here. In some cases its simple laziness and in others its a deliberate attempt to demonize the whole Arab population.

Was there or was there not cheering in the streets of Gaza when word was announced that an Israeli border post had been attacked, and Jews had been killed and one captured? Do all main media outlets report almost total support for the attack from the Palestinian street or do they not?

Was there or was there not cheering in Lebanon after Hezbolah attacked Israel? Is the reason why the Lebanese government cannot do anything to reign in Hezbollah because so many Lebanese people support Hezbolah or not?

There is widespread support for terrorism among Arabs. Especially terrorism against Jews.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Tell a friend

    Love Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...