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Israel Invades Lebanon


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You're saying United Nations resolutions and decisions are invalid unless everyone agrees?

What do you mean by "invalid"? A more accurate asessment was that the decision was morally incorrect because it violated the right of self-determination of the people invlved. The lanmd should not have been he UNs to give away, but belonge dto the people who were living there.

think it's certainly justified in taking extreme measures to protect its security, certainly justified in retaliating against Arabs firing rockets into its towns and cities.

"Extreme" measures is completely debatable.

Openly racist crap? Name one thing about what I wrote above which is racist in even the slightest part?

"legions of crazed savages"

As for you - we used to have a guy on another discussion group who would post nothing but crime stories about Black criminals. But I'm not racist, he would say. I'm just posting crime stories. But it wasn't coincidence every single story featured a Black criminal.

Is that really a road that you, of all people, would like to travel down, given your own posting history?

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You're saying United Nations resolutions and decisions are invalid unless everyone agrees?

What do you mean by "invalid"? A more accurate asessment was that the decision was morally incorrect because it violated the right of self-determination of the people invlved. The lanmd should not have been he UNs to give away, but belonge dto the people who were living there.

think it's certainly justified in taking extreme measures to protect its security, certainly justified in retaliating against Arabs firing rockets into its towns and cities.

"Extreme" measures is completely debatable.

How extreme has Israel even been? It's bombed a few public areas with few or no casualties, and bombed some government offices - clearly at night as there were few or no casualties, all clearly designed to tell the Lebananese that if they want to protend to being a sovereign country they need to show control over all areas of that country - or forfeit the right to ownership. If the Lebanese want to support armed groups which attack its neighbours then it can be justifiably punished.

Openly racist crap? Name one thing about what I wrote above which is racist in even the slightest part?

"legions of crazed savages"

Nothing racist about that. You're talking about people who are like rabid dogs in their desperation to get at Israelis, who will cut through fences, dig under them, blow holes in them, climb over them, use speedboats, scuba gear, hang gliders, anything to get at a Jew so they can kill them, any Jew, man woman or child, anywhere they can get at them. You might call such people dedicated freedom fighters, but I prefer "crazed savages".

As for you - we used to have a guy on another discussion group who would post nothing but crime stories about Black criminals. But I'm not racist, he would say. I'm just posting crime stories. But it wasn't coincidence every single story featured a Black criminal.

Is that really a road that you, of all people, would like to travel down, given your own posting history?

Anything I've ever written has been based on logic and fact. Your attacks on Israel are based on neither.

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An Israeli ship has just been by a rocket from Lebanon. Last word was that it was ablaze off the coast.

I don't know about any of you but I am getting a bit nervous as to how far this is going to go.

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Openly racist crap? Name one thing about what I wrote above which is racist in even the slightest part?

Gee, how about post #3:

"I think what the Israelis need to do is go in there with tanks to clear out all the Arabs within several miles of its borders, then bulldozers to wipe out every building, every house, every shed, then drop agent orange to kill every bit of vegetation, plant mines, and make it clear that anyone seen in the area will be shot on sight."

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I myself because I support Israel's right to exist do not appreciate Blackdog's simplistic attempts to portray me as a Zionist or anyone who support's Israel's right to exist as Zionists. That is b.s.

And on the same note, I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite for the reason that I cannot recognize Israel's right to exist.

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The word genocide has been used repeatedly over the years by many agencies, and media outlets over the years when referring to this war. Just because CNN, the BBC and Global dont use it, doesnt mean it isnt real. For any of the above to use the word would mean they have to do something to prevent it - and their countries have had no interest in becoming involved.

It is absolutely impossible to get an accurate body count in the middle of a war, further more injured civilians count as victims, they dont have to be dead.

Have you already forgotten the original "body count" coming out of Iraq? I believe the US initially said it was less than 100 civilians, and gave us some stupid figure such as 42 or whatever?

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It doesn’t matter how many times the United States and European powers try to rein in Israel, if it comes down to survival of its nation, its people, they will fight like no lioness has ever fought to save her cubs. They will fight with a ferocity, a determination, and a skill, that will astound us.

And many will die, mostly their attackers, I believe. If there were a macabre historical betting parlor, my money would be on the Israelis to be standing at the end. As we killed the kamikazes and the Wehrmacht soldaten of World War II, so will the Israelis kill their suicidal attackers, until there are not enough to torment them.

israpundit.com

Israel is trying to force a war between Iran and the US and involve the whole world in this, hoping it will provide them with the ultimate solution to their "Arab Problem". It is no coincidence that this "war" should erupt the same time the US is confronting Iran

It's hardly news that US President George Bush refuses to rule out possible military action against Iran if Tehran continues to pursue its controversial nuclear ambitions.
The United States Wednesday demanded the immediate release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, and said it holds Iran and Syria responsible for the new outburst of Middle East violence. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is telephoning leaders in the region to try to ease the crisis.

IMO Israel is pushing for World War III believing its alliance with the US will result in the annihilation of any Arab State. US/Israel vs Iran/Arabs and of course Russia will get involved, and Europe and ultimately the whole damn world ........

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Openly racist crap? Name one thing about what I wrote above which is racist in even the slightest part?

Gee, how about post #3:

"I think what the Israelis need to do is go in there with tanks to clear out all the Arabs within several miles of its borders, then bulldozers to wipe out every building, every house, every shed, then drop agent orange to kill every bit of vegetation, plant mines, and make it clear that anyone seen in the area will be shot on sight."

What the heck is racist about that? I'm talking about a military option here.

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I myself because I support Israel's right to exist do not appreciate Blackdog's simplistic attempts to portray me as a Zionist or anyone who support's Israel's right to exist as Zionists. That is b.s.

And on the same note, I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite for the reason that I cannot recognize Israel's right to exist.

How about if we instead point out that you have aligned yourself firmly with anti-semites, Nazis, and terrorists? That, in fact, most of those on your side fall into one or more of those camps?

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The word genocide has been used repeatedly over the years by many agencies, and media outlets over the years when referring to this war.

Name any respectable media outlet or agency which has used the word to describe Israeli actions against its Arab neighbors. Only someone with a deeply flawed understanding of the basics of the English language - or a fanatical Jew-hater - would use genocide to describe a low-level guerrila war.

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Israel is trying to force a war between Iran and the US and involve the whole world in this, hoping it will provide them with the ultimate solution to their "Arab Problem".

Are you suggesting Israel persuaded Hezbollah to attack and kill its soldiers and fire rockets and mortars into its towns and cities?

It is no coincidence that this "war" should erupt the same time the US is confronting Iran

No shit, sherlock. I don't suppose it's occured to you that Hezbollah is backed and financed by Iran and Syria?

IMO Israel is pushing for World War III believing its alliance with the US will result in the annihilation of any Arab State. US/Israel vs Iran/Arabs and of course Russia will get involved, and Europe and ultimately the whole damn world ........

Ridiculous, hysterical blather.

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You know what people, it is about time for this stuff to happen. Its been a long time coming and maybe now we can finally deal with the issues. The Middle East has been a powder keg since '46. I mean 60 years is a long time, generations have gone by as the entire world watches people die.

Let the chips fall where they may, but let those folks decide how they want to live, or die without our interference. If Israel wants to do whatever it wants, and the Arab states want to do whatever it is that they want, well its certainly not up to me. Or you folks either really. If you want to do something for these people then go over there and enlist on whatever side you want. But lets not drag every nation in the world into what can only be described as a religious war.

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You know what people, it is about time for this stuff to happen. Its been a long time coming and maybe now we can finally deal with the issues. The Middle East has been a powder keg since '46. I mean 60 years is a long time, generations have gone by as the entire world watches people die.

Let the chips fall where they may, but let those folks decide how they want to live, or die without our interference. If Israel wants to do whatever it wants, and the Arab states want to do whatever it is that they want, well its certainly not up to me. Or you folks either really. If you want to do something for these people then go over there and enlist on whatever side you want. But lets not drag every nation in the world into what can only be described as a religious war.

Jerry in your own wierd blunt way you do make a point. However I will say this. I am a strong supporter of Isael's right to exist. I lived in Israek and volunteered there and went to school there although I can't speal a friggin word of Hebrew. But I also have friends that are Muslim, Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Israeli Christian, Israeli Arab, Druze, Beduin, and Palestinian (both Christian and Muslim). I also know Bahaiis from the Middle East and Zoroastrians (I apologize if I spelled that wrong). I also know Afghanis and Iranians.

I would like to think I am typical of many Jewish Canadians and many people you don't hear about. Whether we are Jewish, Christian, Muslim and what-ever our nationality, etc., we simply want both Palestinians and Israelis to be able to co-exist.

So there is a third option Jerry and now more then ever and that is the option for moderate, peaceful people of all religions and nationalities to try mediate the dispute and find ways to defuse the the tension. No these moderate mediators can not stop terrorism but they can encourage and incite a peace network to bridge the fear and distrust between the two sides. Don' t understimate that.

I will never give up the dream of hoping one day Palestinians and Israelis can find peace. I do think right now however in the interim that from a purely practical point of view Hezbollah and Hamas need to be crippled and I regret very much innocent civilians will suffer.

Now more then ever we need peace activists who won't choose sides and can remain neutral and non judgemental.

In the interim I applaud Stephen Harper for being the first Canadian politician in years to not be afraid to denounce terrorism as he did.

As for Lebanon, it is a cursed nation long dominated by Syria and the Hezbollah and it is truly tragic but to finally move Hezbollah from the border with Israel innocent Lebanese will suffer. For that I directly blame Syria and Iran for turning Lebanon into a crippled state helpless to expel terrorists and I directly blame the French who had the power and ability to put an end to terrorism in Lebanon and turned the other way so it could complete its nuclear, chemical, military and other sales in Iran not to mention gain selected country status when obtaining Iranian oil.

The French also have done very well in their business deals with Syria.

I remember sitting in Beirut years ago. ( I am now 50) I was 17. A more beautiful city you have never seen. Its Christian and Muslim communities could have co-existed had it not been for Syria and Iran flooding the country with terrorist cells and for the havoc Arafat permeated when he squatted in Lebanon.

To the Lebanese people I say, one day, one day, none of this shit will last and you will be left alone. This is all part of the cleansing process and returning you to what you were, an oasis in the Middle East. In the interim your people will suffer as will Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Its a damn shame.

As for the Americans, they were oh so naive thinking they could remain on the ground in Iraq, and making a difference, but at least they tried. The other super-powers and the European Union are self-righteous hipporcates. They talk but do nothing but sell weapons and exploit the misery.

And by the way, I am glad I am Canadian and can live in a country where I can walk down the street and not have a missile parked up my butt.

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I myself because I support Israel's right to exist do not appreciate Blackdog's simplistic attempts to portray me as a Zionist or anyone who support's Israel's right to exist as Zionists. That is b.s.

And on the same note, I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite for the reason that I cannot recognize Israel's right to exist.

How about if we instead point out that you have aligned yourself firmly with anti-semites, Nazis, and terrorists? That, in fact, most of those on your side fall into one or more of those camps?

Way to point the finger Argus. Nazi? Back the fudge up there boy. Nice slander on your part at my expense. I am of German decent, this you may want to know. So continue to call me a Nazi, I have had that name thrown at me since I was a kid. It was laughable when I was a kid, and laughable now I am an adult. I will forgive you for this personal attack however, cause I know you meant better.

What Hammas and Hezbollah are doing is wrong yes. However the results are very dissproportionate to those 3 soldiers now being held hostage.

What I am is a Canadian wondering why there has been SOOO much support for Israel when they get attacked but when the Isreali army makes an incursion into Gaza to capture militants who were about to be freed from a Gaza jail. Don't expect much sympathy from me.

Also I am not a religious man. So I have been able to make up my own mind. Again, I forgive you for attacking me personaly.

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I myself because I support Israel's right to exist do not appreciate Blackdog's simplistic attempts to portray me as a Zionist or anyone who support's Israel's right to exist as Zionists. That is b.s.

And on the same note, I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite for the reason that I cannot recognize Israel's right to exist.

How about if we instead point out that you have aligned yourself firmly with anti-semites, Nazis, and terrorists? That, in fact, most of those on your side fall into one or more of those camps?

Way to point the finger Argus. Nazi? Back the fudge up there boy. Nice slander on your part at my expense. I am of German decent, this you may want to know. So continue to call me a Nazi, I have had that name thrown at me since I was a kid.

I did not call you a Nazi. Do you have a reading impediment?

What Hammas and Hezbollah are doing is wrong yes. However the results are very dissproportionate to those 3 soldiers now being held hostage.

Like others, you conveniently leave out the thousand rockets fired into Israel, and the two dozen Israelis killed thus far. Is it disproportionate to THAT?

As for "militants about to be released from jail" I think you might want to consider these were terrorists and Israel agreed to let Palestinians try to deal with them. Well, the Palestinians were dealing with them by releasing them without charge or punishment. As they have always done with their terrorists.

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I did not call you a Nazi. Do you have a reading impediment?

Ok, maybe not .. but when you say this..

How about if we instead point out that you have aligned yourself firmly with anti-semites, Nazis, and terrorists? That, in fact, most of those on your side fall into one or more of those camps?

That tells me you are labeling me a Naziantisemiteterroristlover. Am I wrong here? Or will you take that statement back then?

I am not ignoring the missles being fired into Israel from Hammas or Hezbollah. Israel has more military power there than most of the other contries in the region combined, so it is not a matter of the Israelis not being able to hold their own. They can. And they do.

However Isreal is responsible for this major escalation. They could have shown restraint, but they choose not to. You don't win any friends by giving them the finger and shooting them in the face.

Hezbollah is located mainly in southern Lebanon, so why are ports in Northern Lebanon being attacked? Like the port in Tripoli. Concentration should be on the southern part of Lebanon where Hezbollah is standing ground. Why does Beruit need to suffer the attacks?

It's all been tit for fucking tat for the last 60 damn years in that area. Even longer. The creation of Israel is the work of some fundamentalist zionists. Mainly about religion, (the jews returning to the homeland) which really escalated the situation. Someting Black Dog has been trying to point out as well. This all started over 60 years ago.

US just vetoed a resolution condeming Israel for their over reaction, but that is no big deal right? What kind of message does that send to Israel? No worries, continue to attack, we got your back. But as soon as one rocket or suicide bomber attacks Israel, they are condemned with a motion in the UN. Hardly seems fair and one sided now does it.

There are other majort players taking part in this conflit. This is not just about Israel and their right to exists. This is about pacifying the whole middle east. The tighter the grip ...

As for "militants about to be released from jail" I think you might want to consider these were terrorists and Israel agreed to let Palestinians try to deal with them. Well, the Palestinians were dealing with them by releasing them without charge or punishment. As they have always done with their terrorists.

Who are you to say how other countries treat and prosecute their prisoners? Isreal agreed to it, then decided that was not good enough for them. Hypocritical.

And also you must be careful of what you read, and who is delivering the report on that subject. Biased slant for Israel in the American media is very prominent. This subconciously makes the US and Israel 'brothers in arms'.

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I did not call you a Nazi. Do you have a reading impediment?

Ok, maybe not .. but when you say this..

How about if we instead point out that you have aligned yourself firmly with anti-semites, Nazis, and terrorists? That, in fact, most of those on your side fall into one or more of those camps?

That tells me you are labeling me a Naziantisemiteterroristlover. Am I wrong here? Or will you take that statement back then?

I had hoped you might examine just who make up the majority of that "I don't recognize the state of Israel" crowd, and reconsider whether you want to stand with htem.

I am not ignoring the missles being fired into Israel from Hammas or Hezbollah. Israel has more military power there than most of the other contries in the region combined, so it is not a matter of the Israelis not being able to hold their own. They can. And they do.

So you don't much care about violence and agression directed against Israel, because Israel can and does take care of themselves, and yet you go on to decry the Israelis for, uh, well, taking care of themselves. You don't see the illogic of this?

However Isreal is responsible for this major escalation. They could have shown restraint, but they choose not to.

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for months. I think Israel has shown plenty of restraint. I wonder how much restraint you'd show if rockets were landing in your neighborhood.

You don't win any friends by giving them the finger and shooting them in the face.

The Israelis are not idiot enough to think the Arabs will be their friends. All they want is for them to not fire rockets at them and attack them. I don't think that's asking too much.

Hezbollah is located mainly in southern Lebanon, so why are ports in Northern Lebanon being attacked? Like the port in Tripoli. Concentration should be on the southern part of Lebanon where Hezbollah is standing ground. Why does Beruit need to suffer the attacks?

Gee, because it's a stronghold of Hezbollah? Because Hezbollah's political leader is there, is a member of the Lebanese cabinet, because Hezbollah has MPs in the Lebanese parliament, because the Lebanese people need to be persuaded that it's not neighbourly to harbour terrorists who fire rockets at their neighbours?

US just vetoed a resolution condeming Israel for their over reaction, but that is no big deal right?

Nope. I approve completely.

What kind of message does that send to Israel?

That we will side with you when you are attacked by terrorists. It also sends a message to Lebanon. Don't expect much sympathy from us while harbouring terrorist groups.

As for "militants about to be released from jail" I think you might want to consider these were terrorists and Israel agreed to let Palestinians try to deal with them. Well, the Palestinians were dealing with them by releasing them without charge or punishment. As they have always done with their terrorists.

Who are you to say how other countries treat and prosecute their prisoners? Isreal agreed to it, then decided that was not good enough for them. Hypocritical.

The terrorists in question were guilty of attacking Israel. I think it was awfully good of the Israelis to stand back and let the Palestinians, who said they would handle it, address the problem. When the Palestinian Authority showed that it was incapable of doing that the Israelis stepped in - quite properly too.

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Again I stress

I had hoped you might examine just who make up the majority of that "I don't recognize the state of Israel" crowd, and reconsider whether you want to stand with them.

This does not mean I support terrorism and their groups. I guess I am either WITH you or AGAINST you. You fail to see the difference between being a Jew Hating Nazi, to one that does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Regardless of my reasons which I try to throw out here. As soon as someone says something like this, they get labled an anti-semite jew hating Nazu.

Seriously, you should be able to come up with something better than that. Both sides have not shown any restraint whatsoever. So this is a conflict you can blame on BOTH sides. But all of us are taking sides it seems. Agrus, I will point you to the book I suggested to Rue. Well written book that covers alot of this since the early 1900's before Israel was created. And actually the tru borders of Israel have not been 100% or officialy delcared/recognized. This is something Israel wants to secure and make permanent my 2010. This tells me the land grab is not quite over. Take a snapshot of the borders now. Then do it in another 4 years.

So you don't much care about violence and agression directed against Israel, because Israel can and does take care of themselves, and yet you go on to decry the Israelis for, uh, well, taking care of themselves. You don't see the illogic of this?

You are right. I really DON'T care. As you do not care for the Lebanese or the Palestinians. Sides we have chosen obviuoulsy for good reasons (from your side and myside). At least I am willing to at least see your side. I can see it and yes you have good points. But not even compromising with me on certain things you and I are mimmicking this whole crisis.

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for months. I think Israel has shown plenty of restraint. I wonder how much restraint you'd show if rockets were landing in your neighborhood.

Personaly, I would have gathered a small force to go in quietly and make a stealthy operation to get their man back. This would have been a better response and at the same time make Hammas and Hezbollah nervous in the sense that OH SHI... they can come in and get their guy back without much neede force. Instead we have Lebanon getting pounded in the ass for a group they can no longer properly control.

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It can only be called genocide, suburbs are being targeted and the objective is to level the city
I wish people would stop misusing terms like genocide - aerial bombing actually kills relatively few people - its main purpose its to destroy infrastructure and terrorize the populace. You can criticize Isreali tatics but don't call it genocide.

I agree and would add "ethnic cleansing" to that. The hyperbolic misuse of these terms diminishes the meaning for those who are true the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing. It's unfortunate the some people use this as a tool in an attempt to win a debate.

The other thing is that some of these same people seem to cry a lot about "rules of war" and "innocent civilians" as if war would be ok if everyone just "followed the rules". As if it's possible to engage in combat with out collateral damage. War is sick any way you look at it.

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Seriously, you should be able to come up with something better than that. Both sides have not shown any restraint whatsoever. So this is a conflict you can blame on BOTH sides.

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

But all of us are taking sides it seems. Agrus, I will point you to the book I suggested to Rue. Well written book that covers alot of this since the early 1900's before Israel was created.

I don't give a shit how Israel was created. It was sixty years in the past. Israel is there. Short of a nuclear war it is not going anywhere. It is utterly pointless to whine about historical injustices which took place before virtually any of the people involved were born. It solves nothing and is only used to perpetuate hatred and a sense of victimhood.

So you don't much care about violence and agression directed against Israel, because Israel can and does take care of themselves, and yet you go on to decry the Israelis for, uh, well, taking care of themselves. You don't see the illogic of this?

You are right. I really DON'T care. As you do not care for the Lebanese or the Palestinians. Sides we have chosen obviuoulsy for good reasons (from your side and myside).

Well, I generally side with the victim of violence over the agressor. Apparently you feel differently.

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for months. I think Israel has shown plenty of restraint. I wonder how much restraint you'd show if rockets were landing in your neighborhood.

Personaly, I would have gathered a small force to go in quietly and make a stealthy operation to get their man back. This would have been a better response and at the same time make Hammas and Hezbollah nervous in the sense that

Oh for God's sake, stop watching Arnold Schwarzenegger movies! You know what would happen if the Israelis sent "a small force" into Lebanon? They'd be massacred worse than Custers's cavalry. That's even supposing the Israelis have a clue where their people are. Not to mention this completely overlooks the fact that rockets have been flying across their border for months, and the other soldiers killed when those two were taken.

No. The Israelis have a perfect right to push a violent, armed group away from their border, and to punish a neighbouring people who have been supporting that violent, armed group in its attacks against Israel. If the Lebanese people don't want their country pounded by Israel they can stop supporting Hezbollah and disarm them. They can't? Gee. Why not? Oh. Because huge numbers of them side with Hezbollah!

So too bad for them. Let them live in mud huts without electricity or running water, chanting Allah Akbar as they eat grass and their children die all around them.

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Dear Argus,

I had hoped you might examine just who make up the majority of that "I don't recognize the state of Israel" crowd, and reconsider whether you want to stand with htem.
I am not anti-Jew, but am anti-zionist. Mind you, to qualify, I recognize that Israel exists, but do not believe borders should be decided by any religion, and I certainly will not recognize the 'deed and title to the land' is the bible, (or torah, a bit of it, in this case) nor do I think that the bible should hold up in court as a legal document.

How can one say that the Bible is right but the Koran is wrong? I judge them equally, and both are equally wrong. It is one book against another here, however else things may seem to appear.

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Argus

Oh for God's sake, stop watching Arnold Schwarzenegger movies! You know what would happen if the Israelis sent "a small force" into Lebanon? They'd be massacred worse than Custers's cavalry. That's even supposing the Israelis have a clue where their people are. Not to mention this completely overlooks the fact that rockets have been flying across their border for months, and the other soldiers killed when those two were taken.

They are called Special Op forces. Almost every major military power has an elite crack unit for this kind of this. Ahnold did not invent the whole thing. And actually the person you SHOULD have mentioned was Chuck Norris.

Keep swinging Argus I think you got him on the run!

Or he keeps missing. For Example.

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

I am speechless.

I don't give a shit how Israel was created. It was sixty years in the past. Israel is there. Short of a nuclear war it is not going anywhere. It is utterly pointless to whine about historical injustices which took place before virtually any of the people involved were born. It solves nothing and is only used to perpetuate hatred and a sense of victimhood.

You don't give a shit? Because it was the past? Don't care to learn some history? Then you have failed already. Utterly pointless to argue with you about injustices that started over 60 years ago. And this is why the conflict has lasted for so long. Both sides do not want to give.

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Argus
Oh for God's sake, stop watching Arnold Schwarzenegger movies! You know what would happen if the Israelis sent "a small force" into Lebanon? They'd be massacred worse than Custers's cavalry. That's even supposing the Israelis have a clue where their people are. Not to mention this completely overlooks the fact that rockets have been flying across their border for months, and the other soldiers killed when those two were taken.

They are called Special Op forces. Almost every major military power has an elite crack unit for this kind of this. Ahnold did not invent the whole thing. And actually the person you SHOULD have mentioned was Chuck Norris.

Ever seen the movie "Black Hawk Down"? Elite special forces can only do so much against overwhelming numbers.

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

I am speechless.

Israel is violently attacked and fights back. How is it both sides are equally to blame for this violence?

I don't give a shit how Israel was created. It was sixty years in the past. Israel is there. Short of a nuclear war it is not going anywhere. It is utterly pointless to whine about historical injustices which took place before virtually any of the people involved were born. It solves nothing and is only used to perpetuate hatred and a sense of victimhood.

You don't give a shit? Because it was the past? Don't care to learn some history?

I know the history. It is irrelevent. Going over it again and again and again changes nothing. Isreal is there. That's all there is to it. If you want historical injustices how about looking to Arab nations which kept their fellow Arabs in squalid refugee camps for generations so they can be used as political pawns and weapons against Israel?

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Dear Argus,
I had hoped you might examine just who make up the majority of that "I don't recognize the state of Israel" crowd, and reconsider whether you want to stand with htem.
I am not anti-Jew, but am anti-zionist. Mind you, to qualify, I recognize that Israel exists, but do not believe borders should be decided by any religion, and I certainly will not recognize the 'deed and title to the land' is the bible, (or torah, a bit of it, in this case) nor do I think that the bible should hold up in court as a legal document.

Neither do I. But Israel was set up by the United Nations. It is there. That's all there is to it. To whine about how it was created and how injust that was serves no purpose. There is more than enough blame to go around for the creation of the Palestinian refugee crisis. And much of it, IMO, belongs to the surrounding Arab governments.

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