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I do not support Black Dog's views either. But having said that, Israel is now conducting aggresive military operations outside of her borders. We all know the reasons, but that does not change the facts. I actually side with Israel but am very concerned that this will escalate into at least regional conflict. We all need to step back from the edge before it is too late.

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Maronites are in fact Christians. They are not two distinct groups.

Whoops. Correct. I was thinking of the Druze.

Black Dog's comments that Israel has provided them all with a common nemesis, namely Israel is defective. The fact is whether Israel engaged in its counter-strike or not, the majority of the country was being held hostage by the Surians, Iranians and their proxy terrorist force, Hezbollah. That is the point. If Black Dog chooses to make Israel a scape-goat for what ails Lebanon he should be reminded not all Lebanese think like him so he should not project his simplistic scaep-goating concepts on Lebanese many of who are sophisticated enough to know who their real enemies are

According to a poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

In a previous response Black Dog stated Hezbollah posed no existential threat to Israel, now he says they have always been in danger. Which one is it? As well what does "merely confronting the inevitable" mean?

That's not my quote.

This is precisely the kind of baseless, sweeping generalization that has to be called out and exposed. On what basis is this conspiracy to take over the Middle East obvious? What magic powers does Black Dog have that can see through this elaborate pretense of Israel pretending to defend itself? A" After all what is the guge army for? Roll Eyes" . Does this sound like someone who is interested in trying to understand Israel's position or does it sound like someone who has closed his mind and is simply interested in calling names? Israel maintains a "alrge enemy" because it is surrounded by regimes and terrorist groups who have clearly stated it is their intention to destroy it. For Black Dog to suggest Israel only keeps a military force because this is attached to a conspiracy to take over the Middle East is past the point of absurdity. If it was Israel's intention to capture all of the Middle East, why hasn't it already?

For you. See also: "irony".

Again this is the kind of iresponsible and churlish response that needs to be called out and exposed for what it is-Israeli baiting. To down-play and attempt to rationalize or intellectualzie terrorist attacks and depict them as a minor inconvenience is an insult to anyone who ahs ever suffered or will suffer from terrorist attacks.

"Israel-baiting"? That's a new one. :lol:

And I think for a citizen of Haifa, the pre July 2006 situation was far more convienient than the current daily rocket attacks. Try to grab some perspective instead of getting all emotionally overwrought.

Comparing Hell's Angels to Hezbollah is absolutely idiotic. Hell's angels is a criminal organization with no political ideology. Hezbollah's criminal activities such as drug smuggling, engaging in the capture and trade of women and humans as slaves and prostitutes, stealing and selling stolen goods, engaging in charity and white collar crime, or only part of its motus opperendi. Engaging in violence and murder as a means to express its poltiical ideology is what sets it apart from Hell's angels. More to the point if Hell's Angels got to the point where it would be a significant existential threat to Canadian or American society because of wide spread missile attacks, you can bet its leaders and members would be hunted down and killed or incarcerated.

Evidently I need to get you the definition of "analogy" as well. The point is Hizbullah, while a sophisticated organization, does not threaten the existence of Israel. Nobody (even, I'll wager, Hizbullah's leadership) believes that. Simply stating and restating that it does is not evidence. Unless you think Israel is so weak that a few hundred primitive rockets will cause everyone there to pack it up.

I also wish to make one thing clear. Black Dog may think he is being clever or witty but it is absolutely disdparaging and belittling to Israels to suggest they would love to return to the good old days of border raids. Again this is precisely the kind of response that should earn readers' contempt. Israelis are not playing a game. Cross border raids are not a joke or minor inconvenience.

Who said they were? The better alternative wold be no violence at all, but we're comparing the pre July 2006 situation with all that has transpired since. Saying I'd rather lose a finger than my whole hand doesn't mean I want to lose the finger.

Stop and think what Black Dog ridicules and refers to like it is a joke. Samir Kuntar comes across the border and takes a 4 year old boy and bashes his head in with a brick while his father is forced to watch. The brain matter is then shoved in his father Danny's face. Danny is then slowly tortured and killed. danny's wife and daughter had to hide in a loft. She smothered her 2 year old daughter to death covering her mouth so she would not scream. Mr. Kuntar is now referred to by Hezbollah as a hero and martyr and this is the man Hezbollah commenced this latest conflict over and want released. This is what Black Dog talks about like it is some sort of joke or minonr inconvenience. He should be ashamed of himself and apologize for his comment.

A few points: Kuntar (whom I'd never heard of until yesterday) was not a member of Hizbullah, though they have taken up his cause. Second, by the accounts I've read, your dramatic depiction of the events leading up to Kuntar's capture are wrong: Danny Haran was killed first, shot by his captors as Israeli security forces closed. Einat Haran was killed with a blow to the head after that. Link. Finally: what's your point? the crime Kuntar committed was horrible, but I'm sure there's millions of similar tales throughout the region. Again: grab some perspective.

Again this is a pointless and inane comment. Terrorism has become culturally acceptable as a means of expressing political views in the Middle East as has anti-semitism. That is the point.

That wasn't one of my posts either.

The above comment is an example of someone who is talking for the sake of talking. Its meaningless.

It misses the very point of the discussion and that is, that there is always an alternative to violence when expressing political views or when trying to resolve conflicts. Tjhe above is simply hot air and again tries to indirectly infer terrorism is justifiable.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it meaningless. Of course there are alternatives to violence. As I said above, we're talking about two specific alternatives: the status quo ante bellum, which was a limited, local conflict along the border, or the current mess.

Again the above comment engages in a gross generalization speaking on behalf of the entire world other then Israeli people. What makes this response odious and less then geuine is that Israelis continually explore and consider the possibility of options for peaceful solutions without the use of their army. What Black Dog deliberately ignores is that the vast majority of Israelis want peace and would embrace peace but their vast and extensive network of peacemakers now all are in unamimous agreement with their government that they can't achieve peace with Hezbollah who have made it clear they will murder each and every Jew on the planet. That is the facts. Hezbollah is not just about having a minor disagreement with Israel. They are about exterminating all of Israel and all Jews whether they are Israeli or not. That is precisely defined in their charter and statements.

Once again: when addressing me, try to limit your reponses to statements I actually made. You're actually replying to (and disparaging) a pro-Israel poster.

Now the above is the most amusing and typical statements of Bl;ack Dog. he spends most of his time attacking Israel for "occupying" territory that does not belong to them, and then when they leave, he then blames them for leaving! If it wasn't so absurd it would be laughable but to me it typifies how Black Dog contradicts himself and at any opportunity blames Israel. Toa ssign culpability to Israel for terrorists choosing to take over Lebanon or the Gaza is past the point of being silly but I suppose if we take Black Dog's approach as evidenced above you simply blame anything and everything on Israel and do not worry about whether that makes any cohesive logical sense or has any context.

Did I blame Israel for leaving? No, I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally and thus enabling Hamas and Hizbullah. Instead of working with the Lebanese government (at the time a Syrian puppet, so I acknowledge there would be serious difficulties there) or the P.A. pre Hamas, to establish some kind of orderly transition of authority, they just up and bugged out. This is the geopolitical equivilant of leaving your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition in the worst part of town and then getting upset when it gets nicked. Obviously, the ultimate responsibility lies with the thief, but the car owner bears some of that burden as well. This would be obvious to anyone interested in a serious discussion and not mere emotional tirades.

*edited to add*

Of course no discussion of Israel's withdrawl from Gaza can be complete without this money interview with Dov Weisglass, who was senior advisor to the not-yet-late Ariel Sharon during the Gaza withdrawl. Link

"The (Gaza) disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

...

"Arik doesn't see Gaza today as an area of national interest. He does see Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as an area of national interest. He thinks rightly that we are still very very far from the time when we will be able to reach final-status settlements in Judea and Samaria."

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Maronites are in fact Christians. They are not two distinct groups.

Whoops. Correct. I was thinking of the Druze.

Black Dog's comments that Israel has provided them all with a common nemesis, namely Israel is defective. The fact is whether Israel engaged in its counter-strike or not, the majority of the country was being held hostage by the Surians, Iranians and their proxy terrorist force, Hezbollah. That is the point. If Black Dog chooses to make Israel a scape-goat for what ails Lebanon he should be reminded not all Lebanese think like him so he should not project his simplistic scaep-goating concepts on Lebanese many of who are sophisticated enough to know who their real enemies are

According to a poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

In a previous response Black Dog stated Hezbollah posed no existential threat to Israel, now he says they have always been in danger. Which one is it? As well what does "merely confronting the inevitable" mean?

That's not my quote.

This is precisely the kind of baseless, sweeping generalization that has to be called out and exposed. On what basis is this conspiracy to take over the Middle East obvious? What magic powers does Black Dog have that can see through this elaborate pretense of Israel pretending to defend itself? A" After all what is the guge army for? Roll Eyes" . Does this sound like someone who is interested in trying to understand Israel's position or does it sound like someone who has closed his mind and is simply interested in calling names? Israel maintains a "alrge enemy" because it is surrounded by regimes and terrorist groups who have clearly stated it is their intention to destroy it. For Black Dog to suggest Israel only keeps a military force because this is attached to a conspiracy to take over the Middle East is past the point of absurdity. If it was Israel's intention to capture all of the Middle East, why hasn't it already?

For you. See also: "irony".

Again this is the kind of iresponsible and churlish response that needs to be called out and exposed for what it is-Israeli baiting. To down-play and attempt to rationalize or intellectualzie terrorist attacks and depict them as a minor inconvenience is an insult to anyone who ahs ever suffered or will suffer from terrorist attacks.

"Israel-baiting"? That's a new one. :lol:

And I think for a citizen of Haifa, the pre July 2006 situation was far more convienient than the current daily rocket attacks. Try to grab some perspective instead of getting all emotionally overwrought.

Comparing Hell's Angels to Hezbollah is absolutely idiotic. Hell's angels is a criminal organization with no political ideology. Hezbollah's criminal activities such as drug smuggling, engaging in the capture and trade of women and humans as slaves and prostitutes, stealing and selling stolen goods, engaging in charity and white collar crime, or only part of its motus opperendi. Engaging in violence and murder as a means to express its poltiical ideology is what sets it apart from Hell's angels. More to the point if Hell's Angels got to the point where it would be a significant existential threat to Canadian or American society because of wide spread missile attacks, you can bet its leaders and members would be hunted down and killed or incarcerated.

Evidently I need to get you the definition of "analogy" as well. The point is Hizbullah, while a sophisticated organization, does not threaten the existence of Israel. Nobody (even, I'll wager, Hizbullah's leadership) believes that. Simply stating and restating that it does is not evidence. Unless you think Israel is so weak that a few hundred primitive rockets will cause everyone there to pack it up.

I also wish to make one thing clear. Black Dog may think he is being clever or witty but it is absolutely disdparaging and belittling to Israels to suggest they would love to return to the good old days of border raids. Again this is precisely the kind of response that should earn readers' contempt. Israelis are not playing a game. Cross border raids are not a joke or minor inconvenience.

Who said they were? The better alternative wold be no violence at all, but we're comparing the pre July 2006 situation with all that has transpired since. Saying I'd rather lose a finger than my whole hand doesn't mean I want to lose the finger.

Stop and think what Black Dog ridicules and refers to like it is a joke. Samir Kuntar comes across the border and takes a 4 year old boy and bashes his head in with a brick while his father is forced to watch. The brain matter is then shoved in his father Danny's face. Danny is then slowly tortured and killed. danny's wife and daughter had to hide in a loft. She smothered her 2 year old daughter to death covering her mouth so she would not scream. Mr. Kuntar is now referred to by Hezbollah as a hero and martyr and this is the man Hezbollah commenced this latest conflict over and want released. This is what Black Dog talks about like it is some sort of joke or minonr inconvenience. He should be ashamed of himself and apologize for his comment.

A few points: Kuntar (whom I'd never heard of until yesterday) was not a member of Hizbullah, though they have taken up his cause. Second, by the accounts I've read, your dramatic depiction of the events leading up to Kuntar's capture are wrong: Danny Haran was killed first, shot by his captors as Israeli security forces closed. Einat Haran was killed with a blow to the head after that. Link. Finally: what's your point? the crime Kuntar committed was horrible, but I'm sure there's millions of similar tales throughout the region. Again: grab some perspective.

Again this is a pointless and inane comment. Terrorism has become culturally acceptable as a means of expressing political views in the Middle East as has anti-semitism. That is the point.

That wasn't one of my posts either.

The above comment is an example of someone who is talking for the sake of talking. Its meaningless.

It misses the very point of the discussion and that is, that there is always an alternative to violence when expressing political views or when trying to resolve conflicts. Tjhe above is simply hot air and again tries to indirectly infer terrorism is justifiable.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it meaningless. Of course there are alternatives to violence. As I said above, we're talking about two specific alternatives: the status quo ante bellum, which was a limited, local conflict along the border, or the current mess.

Again the above comment engages in a gross generalization speaking on behalf of the entire world other then Israeli people. What makes this response odious and less then geuine is that Israelis continually explore and consider the possibility of options for peaceful solutions without the use of their army. What Black Dog deliberately ignores is that the vast majority of Israelis want peace and would embrace peace but their vast and extensive network of peacemakers now all are in unamimous agreement with their government that they can't achieve peace with Hezbollah who have made it clear they will murder each and every Jew on the planet. That is the facts. Hezbollah is not just about having a minor disagreement with Israel. They are about exterminating all of Israel and all Jews whether they are Israeli or not. That is precisely defined in their charter and statements.

Once again: when addressing me, try to limit your reponses to statements I actually made. You're actually replying to (and disparaging) a pro-Israel poster.

Now the above is the most amusing and typical statements of Bl;ack Dog. he spends most of his time attacking Israel for "occupying" territory that does not belong to them, and then when they leave, he then blames them for leaving! If it wasn't so absurd it would be laughable but to me it typifies how Black Dog contradicts himself and at any opportunity blames Israel. Toa ssign culpability to Israel for terrorists choosing to take over Lebanon or the Gaza is past the point of being silly but I suppose if we take Black Dog's approach as evidenced above you simply blame anything and everything on Israel and do not worry about whether that makes any cohesive logical sense or has any context.

Did I blame Israel for leaving? No, I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally and thus enabling Hamas and Hizbullah. Instead of working with the Lebanese government (at the time a Syrian puppet, so I acknowledge there would be serious difficulties there) or the P.A. pre Hamas, to establish some kind of orderly transition of authority, they just up and bugged out. This is the geopolitical equivilant of leaving your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition in the worst part of town and then getting upset when it gets nicked. Obviously, the ultimate responsibility lies with the thief, but the car owner bears some of that burden as well. This would be obvious to anyone interested in a serious discussion and not mere emotional tirades.

*edited to add*

Of course no discussion of Israel's withdrawl from Gaza can be complete without this money interview with Dov Weisglass, who was senior advisor to the not-yet-late Ariel Sharon during the Gaza withdrawl. Link

"The (Gaza) disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

...

"Arik doesn't see Gaza today as an area of national interest. He does see Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as an area of national interest. He thinks rightly that we are still very very far from the time when we will be able to reach final-status settlements in Judea and Samaria."

I apologize for assigning a quote to Black Dog if it was not his. I lost track of who was saying what. I do wish to make one point crystal clear. Black Dog is being absolutely unreasonable if he thinks it is ironic, or witty or laughable, or funny or sardonic or any other word he wants to use to dismiss terrorist attacks on Israelis as a joke and an inconvenience or to even dare suggest it is preferable to have cross border attacks to missile attacks. This is precisely the kind of comments I expect from someone who lives far away from death and destruction and so thinks it is some sort of game. Perhaps if Blag Dog bothered to educate himself as to who Mr. Kuntar was rather then make idiotic statements that cross border attacks are preferable to missile attacks, he would not take the name of innocent victims in vain and you bet I take what he says with disgust and contempt. To talk about cross border terror attacks as if it is inconsequential is the utmost in ignorance. If I did this in reverse and talked about Lebanese this way and said the missiles do not threaten them and are a mere inconvenience Black Dog would be the first to complain to the moderator and everyone else about what a racist I was. That is the point.

Now you want to make a point that Israel's counter-atacks have gone too far then fine complete the analysis. How far is too far? Yes it is easy to say, they should not have done ANYTHING in response that could have harmed civilians and yes we can be completely misleading like Black Dog and suggest Israel is the cause of all problems including creating terrorism when they choose to leave after being attacked-so what is the alternative?

I have yet to see the authority on the Middle East Mr. Black Dog or any other dettractor of Israel, suggest what the alternative is. All I have read in the last few weeks from Black Dog and some others is that Israel is wrong, dead wrong. But no analysis is spent on explaining how terrorism has affected Israelis and how it threatens their daily lives and has led to deaths and countless suffering. That is conveniently sluffed over in an effort to try paint this conflict as black and white with a good guy and a bad guy.

The point is Hezbollah is not an innocent, freedom fighting force, and now Black Dog's attempts to engage in what I consider pathetic propaganda and suggest because Lebanese are desperately fed up with being bombed to smithereens that this somehow makes Hezbollah morally acceptable. It does not and the fact is of course Lebanese civilians at this point would consider Israel the enemy more then they would Hezbollah..but that does not change the equation. The equation still remains had Hezbollah not taken the country hostage and engaged in peaceful negotiations with Israel, none of this would have happened-none of it-it is a direct consequence of choosing terrorism over peaceful negotiations-it is a direct consequence of

choosing to vote in to office people known to engage in terrorism. Lebanese people doomed themselves and their country when they elected to office 23 Hezbollah members who openly stated they believed in the destruction of the state of Israel and would not stop until this complete destruction was achieved.

This is the crux of the issue. If we in Canada voted into Parliament a party and members of that party that openly advocated using terrorism to achieve independence for Quebec and and that party openly enagged in attacks of terrorism against Canadian civilians, how do you think Canada would react? How would Canada also react if the U.S. sided with these terrorists and then the UN and the US lectured Canada and told it these terrorist attacks were just a minor inconvenience and its all their fault because they had no business taking land away from these Quebecers and illegally occupying their country.

The point is, Black Dog and some other posters have chosen to isolate this conflict and simplify it as a simple bad guy attacking a good guy without taking the time to even find out who Mr. Kuntar was or what Hezbollah has done leading up to this present conflict.

If Black Dog actually read about Hezbollah and how it has treated its OWN people he would realize in the Middle East the fact that the Lebanese want Israel to stop and detest it for what it is doing, does NOT mean it agrees with Hezbollah and believes in terrorism. What it means is at this moment in time, the enemy of their immediate tormentor is their ally. Anyone who bothers to take the time to analyze the Middle East in proper context would know, if Israel was not engaged in war with Hezbollah, Lebanese eventually would have turned on Hezbollah as they did with Syria. There is a war going on not just between Israel and Hezbollah as Black Dog would so simply like to define it, but between Muslim fundemantalism as aspoused by Shiites and Muslim beliefs as aspoused by Modern Muslims or more Orthodox Sunni Muslims and by Muslims of other sects not to mention Druze and Christians. This conflict pre-existed Israel and was going to continue whether Israel existed or not. The fact is to try portray Lebanon as a unified nation because at the present moment its civilians are under attack from Israeli missiles is obvious but it does not for a second change the equation and that is, that Hezbollah is a terrorist group and it chose to use the country as a terrorist base and the people of Lebanon and their government did not disarm them.

The choice to allow terrorists to flourish and be elected to office has reprecussions no matter how you want to spin it and scapegoat Israel.

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I apologize for assigning a quote to Black Dog if it was not his. I lost track of who was saying what. I do wish to make one point crystal clear. Black Dog is being absolutely unreasonable if he thinks it is ironic, or witty or laughable, or funny or sardonic or any other word he wants to use to dismiss terrorist attacks on Israelis as a joke and an inconvenience or to even dare suggest it is preferable to have cross border attacks to missile attacks. This is precisely the kind of comments I expect from someone who lives far away from death and destruction and so thinks it is some sort of game. Perhaps if Blag Dog bothered to educate himself as to who Mr. Kuntar was rather then make idiotic statements that cross border attacks are preferable to missile attacks, he would not take the name of innocent victims in vain and you bet I take what he says with disgust and contempt. To talk about cross border terror attacks as if it is inconsequential is the utmost in ignorance. If I did this in reverse and talked about Lebanese this way and said the missiles do not threaten them and are a mere inconvenience Black Dog would be the first to complain to the moderator and everyone else about what a racist I was. That is the point.

Um...when I'm talking about cross-border attacks (again, we're talking about 20 attacks with varying degrees of success since 2000) being less significant than a daily barrage of katyusha rockets on a major city, it's pretty obvious that I'm talking from the strategic standpoint of the state of Israle and not the individual Israelis involved. Get your head around it.

Now you want to make a point that Israel's counter-atacks have gone too far then fine complete the analysis. How far is too far? Yes it is easy to say, they should not have done ANYTHING in response that could have harmed civilians and yes we can be completely misleading like Black Dog and suggest Israel is the cause of all problems including creating terrorism when they choose to leave after being attacked-so what is the alternative?

I wouldn't necessarily say Israel's response has gone too far. They could be doing a lot worse. But I will say this: their response is the wrong one because it will put them in a worse position than they were in before this stated.

I have yet to see the authority on the Middle East Mr. Black Dog or any other dettractor of Israel, suggest what the alternative is.

I have quite clearly stated said the alternative was the status quo: not the best alternative, but better than the current course.

All I have read in the last few weeks from Black Dog and some others is that Israel is wrong, dead wrong. But no analysis is spent on explaining how terrorism has affected Israelis and how it threatens their daily lives and has led to deaths and countless suffering.

Probably because its not all that relevant to the discussion.

That is conveniently sluffed over in an effort to try paint this conflict as black and white with a good guy and a bad guy.

To quote one late, unlamented poster: Freud had a term for this. It's called "projection."

The point is Hezbollah is not an innocent, freedom fighting force, and now Black Dog's attempts to engage in what I consider pathetic propaganda and suggest because Lebanese are desperately fed up with being bombed to smithereens that this somehow makes Hezbollah morally acceptable.

There you go again with the strawmen.

It does not and the fact is of course Lebanese civilians at this point would consider Israel the enemy more then they would Hezbollah..but that does not change the equation.

Funny: before, when I said that Israel's response would turn more Lebanese aginst Israel, you laughed it off and called the theory "defective". So I guess I'll take this as an concession on your part.

The equation still remains had Hezbollah not taken the country hostage and engaged in peaceful negotiations with Israel, none of this would have happened-none of it-it is a direct consequence of choosing terrorism over peaceful negotiations-it is a direct consequence of choosing to vote in to office people known to engage in terrorism.

Elsewhere, you've rejected the very idea of negotiations with Hizbullah. Now you're saying that negotiations are the answer. Good to see you're coming around to my sid eof things.

Lebanese people doomed themselves and their country when they elected to office 23 Hezbollah members who openly stated they believed in the destruction of the state of Israel and would not stop until this complete destruction was achieved.

So the Lebanese Shiite community elects 23 Hizbullah members to the 128 member Parliment in a democratic election and now the rest of Lebanon is supposed to pay. To put it bluntly: that's pretty f**ked up.

The point is, Black Dog and some other posters have chosen to isolate this conflict and simplify it as a simple bad guy attacking a good guy without taking the time to even find out who Mr. Kuntar was or what Hezbollah has done leading up to this present conflict.

Man, you are so out to lunch. Look at the thread title. It's "Options for Israel." Not "Victims of Hizbullah." Not "Man, Hizbullah is really awful." If you can't discuss these issues without getting all emotional and bringing in red herrings like the loathesome Samir Kuntar, maybe you should stay out .

If Black Dog actually read about Hezbollah and how it has treated its OWN people he would realize in the Middle East the fact that the Lebanese want Israel to stop and detest it for what it is doing, does NOT mean it agrees with Hezbollah and believes in terrorism

I agree. But then, you just contradicted yourself. Earlier, you said "Lebanese people doomed themselves and their country when they elected to office 23 Hezbollah members" which indicates you belive in some collective responsibility for Hizbullah's actions lies with the Lebanese people as a whole (and you make the same point at the end of your post) . So which is it?

What it means is at this moment in time, the enemy of their immediate tormentor is their ally. Anyone who bothers to take the time to analyze the Middle East in proper context would know, if Israel was not engaged in war with Hezbollah, Lebanese eventually would have turned on Hezbollah as they did with Syria. There is a war going on not just between Israel and Hezbollah as Black Dog would so simply like to define it, but between Muslim fundemantalism as aspoused by Shiites and Muslim beliefs as aspoused by Modern Muslims or more Orthodox Sunni Muslims and by Muslims of other sects not to mention Druze and Christians. This conflict pre-existed Israel and was going to continue whether Israel existed or not. The fact is to try portray Lebanon as a unified nation because at the present moment its civilians are under attack from Israeli missiles is obvious but it does not for a second change the equation and that is, that Hezbollah is a terrorist group and it chose to use the country as a terrorist base and the people of Lebanon and their government did not disarm them.

That seals it: you've never actually read a single one of my posts, have you? Because I sure as heck don't know where you're getting this stuff. :rolleyes:

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Eh. No. See here's how it is: Lebanese society is fracticious: 40 per cent Shiite, around 30 per cent Christian, 25 per cent Sunni and various others (ie Maronites) thrown in. None of these groups have gotten along particularily well and there is plenty of lingering hostility from the civil war. However: Israel has managed to proved al these groups wih a common nemesis and Hizbullah has rather skillfully cast itself as a Lebanese nationalist organization. But there's a world of difference between tacitly or even vocally siding with Hizbullah and "harboring terrorists." Big time difference.

Hmmm. So nobody minds Hezbollah moving into their nieghborhood to fire off a few rockets? Well, if they are giving their permission then they are in colusion. If they are being forced then your theory of cohesion is bull. Nobody in SA wanted to confront Al Qeda either until there was a price to pay. Then they did. Your little proverb, if applicable, gives Israel all the reasons they need to continue the attack and, even escalate it.

Why is it so hard for people to make the distinction between threatening lives and threateing the state? Saying Hizbullah's border raids threatened Israel is like saying the Hell's Angels operatrions threaten Canada's existence. I'm sure there's thousands of Israelis in bomb shelters across the north who happily return to the good old days of cross border raids.

No. They simply had citiszens randomly killed, kidnapped and terrorized by thugs. What fucked up logic makes that an acceptable way of life in your mind that shouldn't be confronted? Possibly you find it not worth confronting people who kill randomely the citizens of your country rather than deal with them and make their existance difficult and dangerous.

Israel has never "returned" land.

Sinai. I was there when it was returned.

Evidently I need to get you the definition of "analogy" as well. The point is Hizbullah, while a sophisticated organization, does not threaten the existence of Israel.

Of course they don't. If they did then Lebannon would be a bloody glass parking lot. They are a pain in the ass and, kill innocent people. When people do that, those and those who give permission and support are eliminated as threats by any means possible. A serial killer does not have to threaten the very existance of Canada to have the law after him or her. And, if he or she barracades themselves up somewhere then there will lots of force used to take them out.

Of course there are alternatives to violence.

Yep. Kidnapping, suicide bombings, rockets, tunneling into Israel etc.

Did I blame Israel for leaving? No, I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally and thus enabling Hamas and Hizbullah. Instead of working with the Lebanese government (at the time a Syrian puppet, so I acknowledge there would be serious difficulties there) or the P.A. pre Hamas, to establish some kind of orderly transition of authority, they just up and bugged out.

:lol:I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally :lol:

Um...when I'm talking about cross-border attacks (again, we're talking about 20 attacks with varying degrees of success since 2000) being less significant than a daily barrage of katyusha rockets on a major city, it's pretty obvious that I'm talking from the strategic standpoint of the state of Israle and not the individual Israelis involved. Get your head around it.

Bully comes to your kid each day and slaps him around and steals his lunch money. Better not confront him to possibly stop the problem, you may get punched.

I have quite clearly stated said the alternative was the status quo: not the best alternative, but better than the current course.

Wow. A foreign and defense policy based on sacrificing your women, children and citizens. What political school did you learn that one at?

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Hmmm. So nobody minds Hezbollah moving into their nieghborhood to fire off a few rockets? Well, if they are giving their permission then they are in colusion. If they are being forced then your theory of cohesion is bull. Nobody in SA wanted to confront Al Qeda either until there was a price to pay. Then they did. Your little proverb, if applicable, gives Israel all the reasons they need to continue the attack and, even escalate it.

None of the other groups in Lebanon had the strength to deal with Hizbulah. No doubt many felt that Hizbullah's harrassment of Israel was preferable to confronting them and starting another civil war just as the nation was getting back on its feet. Regardless of whether non-Shiite Lebanese tolerated Hizbullah before, punishing them will strengthen Hizbullah. Which I'm pretty sure is not Israel's goal. So you can bloame the Lebanese people, rightly or wrongly, for Hizbullah all you want. But the question is what is mor eimportant: Israel's security or exacting punishment on the only other democracy in the region?

No. They simply had citiszens randomly killed, kidnapped and terrorized by thugs. What fucked up logic makes that an acceptable way of life in your mind that shouldn't be confronted? Possibly you find it not worth confronting people who kill randomely the citizens of your country rather than deal with them and make their existance difficult and dangerous.

The logic that dictates the alternative (war, occupation, regional instability, up to and including the possible collapse of the lebanese state) is worse.

Sinai. I was there when it was returned.

Ah yes. And what, pray tell, was teh difference between the Suinai withdrawl and, say, the Gaza withdrawl?

Of course they don't. If they did then Lebannon would be a bloody glass parking lot. They are a pain in the ass and, kill innocent people.

That's all I'm saying. Why pretend otherwise?

When people do that, those and those who give permission and support are eliminated as threats by any means possible. A serial killer does not have to threaten the very existance of Canada to have the law after him or her. And, if he or she barracades themselves up somewhere then there will lots of force used to take them out.

I think the situation is wee bit more complex.

laugh.gif I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally

"...thus enabling Hamas and Hizbullah." Nuance is not your strong suit, wot?

Bully comes to your kid each day and slaps him around and steals his lunch money. Better not confront him to possibly stop the problem, you may get punched.

Yeah, let's look to the schoolyard for solutions to the complex problems of the Mid East. You should be in the Bush cabinet!

Wow. A foreign and defense policy based on sacrificing your own citizens. What political school did you learn that one at?

Nooo. A foreign and defense policty based on vigorous diplomacy and a global view of the situation. Not "Everything I Needed To Know I Learned in Kindergartn."

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BD

A question for ya. If Iran really wanted to help the people of Lebanon, why don't they do it by supporting its legitimate government or through organizations like the Red Crescent, instead of a proxy army to carry out an Iranian foreign policy that is bound to do nothing but bring the people of Lebanon grief?

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Bully comes to your kid each day and slaps him around and steals his lunch money. Better not confront him to possibly stop the problem, you may get punched.

Smack the kid around sure, but a measured response wouldn't be to slap all kids on the playground, which is in essence, what Israel is doing.

Does anyone not see how they are completely ineffective so far? They've captured a handful of Hezbollah. Congrats, Israel, your strategy doesn't work. The solution isn't to kick it up a notch.

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But the question is what is mor eimportant: Israel's security or exacting punishment on the only other democracy in the region?

The question might be 'what is more importent, allowing Hezbollah to set up in your neighborhood then watching it be anhialated by Israel or not letting them set up.at all' To Israel it matters little just that they are destroying Hezbollah rather than just let them have free uninhibited reign.

The logic that dictates the alternative (war, occupation, regional instability, up to and including the possible collapse of the lebanese state) is worse.

Israel is hated and isolated about as much as a nation can be hated by it's neighbors. It's as worse as it gets for them. Next is elimination of their enemies via more effective weapons.

Ah yes. And what, pray tell, was teh difference between the Suinai withdrawl and, say, the Gaza withdrawl?

Egypt had it's shit together. Palistine did not. Hardly a problem of Israel's making.

I think the situation is wee bit more complex.

Not really. When somody is a threat and you have the means, you eliminate the threat if possible.

I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally "...thus enabling Hamas and Hizbullah." Nuance is not your strong suit, wot?

Palestinians would have had a kniption if Israel enforced conditions so what the heck is your problem with letting people govern themselves?

Yeah, let's look to the schoolyard for solutions to the complex problems of the Mid East. You should be in the Bush cabinet!

You should be wearing an anti Israel sandwichboard at a Hezbollah rocket site that just fired.

Nooo. A foreign and defense policty based on vigorous diplomacy and a global view of the situation. Not "Everything I Needed To Know I Learned in Kindergartn."

Yes. Sacrificeing children to the peace God. Vigorous diplomacy with people who don't talk and are commited to destroying you without conditions and sacrifice their children to do this. "Everything I Needed To Know I Got From Randy Rhodes"

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Congrats, Israel, your strategy doesn't work.

If all the kids in the playground hate me already and I'm taking hits everywhere, I really don't give a shit as I have little to lose. Especially with a loaded 45 in my back pocket. I want the bully's ass no matter what it takes and, if you're hiding him, helping him, coluding with him. Not my problem as we're ending this right now and, I'm not the one who is going down.

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That just about says it all.

you dont even want to come to grips with what this is all about. You just want to shout your unqualified, narrow minded opinions all over the place.

WHat is the point of that - other than feeding a wounded ego?

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The question might be 'what is more importent, allowing Hezbollah to set up in your neighborhood then watching it be anhialated by Israel or not letting them set up.at all' To Israel it matters little just that they are destroying Hezbollah rather than just let them have free uninhibited reign.

Except #1: Israel is not destroying Hizbullah. So not only are they not accomplishing their military objectives, they are alienating a potentially sympathetic population. In other words, they are losing this fight, which make sthe punishment of the Lebanese peoplel all the more pointless (I'm still curious about what exactly the average Lebanese citizen is suppossed to do about Hizbullah in the first place...)

Israel is hated and isolated about as much as a nation can be hated by it's neighbors. It's as worse as it gets for them. Next is elimination of their enemies via more effective weapons.

You seem eager to see more Israelis dead. Why?

Egypt had it's shit together. Palistine did not. Hardly a problem of Israel's making.

Well, yes it is, but that's beside the point. the Sinai withdrawl was part of a negotiated agrement, not a unilateral pull out.

Not really. When somody is a threat and you have the means, you eliminate the threat if possible.

And if not possible?

Palestinians would have had a kniption if Israel enforced conditions so what the heck is your problem with letting people govern themselves?

I don't have a problem with self-government, but there's a difference between self-government and a basic power vacumn in an area like Gaza. Those types of vacums tend to be filled by people with guns. And surprise! That's exactly what happened.

Yes. Sacrificeing children to the peace God. Vigorous diplomacy with people who don't talk and are commited to destroying you without conditions and sacrifice their children to do this. "Everything I Needed To Know I Got From Randy Rhodes"

Given that the U.S. and Israel consider Hizbullah a terrorist organization and won't deal with them, how do you know Hizbullah wouldn't negotiate?

Hizbullah is a political entity reliant on popular support. That makes it vunlerable to political pressure. By working with state actors like Lebanon and Hizbullah's sponsors in Syria to resolve issues like Sheeba Farms dispute . Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan (Sunni-led nations that want stability in the region), can also be enlisted (via their mutual sponsor the U.S.) to take steps to stop the rise of Hezbollah.

*edited to remove unnecessary smarm*

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Black Dog's last two posts finally say something cohesive and logical and make a valid point for me anyways that the conssequence of this counter-offensive will be to strengthen and popularize Hebollah in the entire Arab world and yes it does necessarily hurt and maim and injure innocent civilians. All points that have to be considered and in the long run will force Israel whether it likes it or not to seek a treaty. The problem though is Israel is very well aware of the points Black Dog and its own military have made to that same effect and debate evrey day. For them they see a short term consequence. They genuinely feel a 1,500 civilian deaths is less then if they allow Hezbollah to remain.

The point is its a no win for Israel. Hezbollah is well trained in ground war. They also have missiles that easily penetrate Israeli tanks and have hand held missiles that can easily take down their Cobra helicopters.

At best Israel can create a buffer zone or demilitarized zone until neutral troops step in.

My point from day one has been had the UN taken awayHezbollah's weapons as they said they would, Israel would never have gone into Lebanon because Lebanon would have been a logical economic partner,

There is also no doubt in my mind if Hezbollah and other militant groups had stuck to words and not violence, Lebanon would be a thriving economic centre.

Rather then being short-sighted and trying to kill and wipe out Israeli Jews, if Hezbollah and militants had any sense they would have done what the Japanese and Vietnamese done with their enemies-embrace them and use them to build viable economies. Nothing achieves peace faster than free trade.

The tragedy now is Lebanon is destroyed, millions of its civilians are shell-shocked and millions of Jews also shell-shocked and the cycle of hatred is entrenched into another generation.

Surely we all agree we need to end the terrorism so that rational humans can talk and find peaceful solutions to co-exist.

Now I will say this-when I read about this or any other conflict I notice one thing- the weapons being used are supplied by the Chinese, Russians, French and Americans, and to a lesser extent Belgium, the UK, North Korea and former Warsaw pact nations. The governments of these nations are well aware of this arms trade through third party brokers.

I ask you, if there was some way we could stop weapons from being sold by anyone or at least seriously curtail it, how could terrorism flourish?

What an irony the 5 security council members are also the largest military manufacturers of the world and directly make money off of this war and every other war and conflict.

These conflict zones become large tests to see if military products work.

I know its wishful thinking but imagine if there was a UN strong enough to prevent weapons from getting into the hands of conflict zones. With no weapons people are forced to talk.

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Black Dog's last two posts finally say something cohesive and logical and make a valid point for me anyways that the conssequence of this counter-offensive will be to strengthen and popularize Hebollah in the entire Arab world and yes it does necessarily hurt and maim and injure innocent civilians. All points that have to be considered and in the long run will force Israel whether it likes it or not to seek a treaty. The problem though is Israel is very well aware of the points Black Dog and its own military have made to that same effect and debate evrey day. For them they see a short term consequence. They genuinely feel a 1,500 civilian deaths is less then if they allow Hezbollah to remain.

I'm glad to see you engaging the points and not me personally. I hope we can keep it civil, as I am not out to antagonise you.

My point from day one has been had the UN taken awayHezbollah's weapons as they said they would, Israel would never have gone into Lebanon because Lebanon would have been a logical economic partner,

I'm just wondering how the UN would accomplish what Israel has not been able to do. i don't think Hizbullah would give up their arms without a fight. The best way to disarm them is to stop the flow of weapons. That means someone would have to lean on Syria. Not Israel or the United States directly, but probably someone like Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Jordan.

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I know its wishful thinking but imagine if there was a UN strong enough to prevent weapons from getting into the hands of conflict zones. With no weapons people are forced to talk.

They still have fists and punches t o throw. But it would make it easier for dialogue.

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There is no diplomacy for Israel and Hezbollah. Hezbollah (and other groups) simply want Israel destroyed. Israel just wants to be left alone. How do you negotiate that with people that won't even listen to anything you say because you're nothing to them? They don't even recognize Israel....how the heck are they supposed to be diplomatic with Hezbollah?

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There is no diplomacy for Israel and Hezbollah. Hezbollah (and other groups) simply want Israel destroyed. Israel just wants to be left alone. How do you negotiate that with people that won't even listen to anything you say because you're nothing to them? They don't even recognize Israel....how the heck are they supposed to be diplomatic with Hezbollah?

Israel doesn't recognize Hizbullah either. But israel doesn't necessarily have to talk to Hizbullah, they can go straight to the nations that pull its strings. At some point, these parties are going to have to sit down and jaw. The alternative is worse.

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Congrats, Israel, your strategy doesn't work.

If all the kids in the playground hate me already and I'm taking hits everywhere, I really don't give a shit as I have little to lose. Especially with a loaded 45 in my back pocket. I want the bully's ass no matter what it takes and, if you're hiding him, helping him, coluding with him. Not my problem as we're ending this right now and, I'm not the one who is going down.

Most Lebanese affected by the Israel attacks are against Hezbollah, how many times do I have to post the election results? Beruit voted in a massive majority against Hezbollah and for the parties that advocate peace, yet it is often the biggest target of indiscriminate bombings.

I want Hezbollah destroyed, by Israel, by NATO, by whoever wants to destroy Hezbollah. But their strategy isn't working (oo a handful of Hezbollah has been captured/killed) and I struggle to see how attacks on every Lebanese people and their infrastructure benefits either Israel or Lebannon, or how anyone can see this as moral.

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Congrats, Israel, your strategy doesn't work.

If all the kids in the playground hate me already and I'm taking hits everywhere, I really don't give a shit as I have little to lose. Especially with a loaded 45 in my back pocket. I want the bully's ass no matter what it takes and, if you're hiding him, helping him, coluding with him. Not my problem as we're ending this right now and, I'm not the one who is going down.

Most Lebanese affected by the Israel attacks are against Hezbollah, how many times do I have to post the election results? Beruit voted in a massive majority against Hezbollah and for the parties that advocate peace, yet it is often the biggest target of indiscriminate bombings.

People might listen to you more if you didn't make dumb statements like that.

Parts of Beirut voted for other parties. But south beirut voted massively for Hezbollah. Not coincidentally, it is South Beirut which was bombed. The rest of Beirut got off more-or-less scott free.

Doesn't sound all that indiscriminate to me.

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There is no diplomacy for Israel and Hezbollah. Hezbollah (and other groups) simply want Israel destroyed. Israel just wants to be left alone. How do you negotiate that with people that won't even listen to anything you say because you're nothing to them? They don't even recognize Israel....how the heck are they supposed to be diplomatic with Hezbollah?

Israel doesn't recognize Hizbullah either. But israel doesn't necessarily have to talk to Hizbullah, they can go straight to the nations that pull its strings. At some point, these parties are going to have to sit down and jaw. The alternative is worse.

And just what do you think Israel will have to talk about with Hezbollah, which says it will hunt down and destroy Jews wherever it finds them on Earth, and Iran, which says there was no Holocaust, and swears it will wipe Israel off the map? Also, in the following quote, the Iranian president questions if Jews are human, and speaks about the uhm, er, peaceful use of nuclear "energy" his people will enjoy. Are Jews Human?

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

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People might listen to you more if you didn't make dumb statements like that.

Parts of Beirut voted for other parties. But south beirut voted massively for Hezbollah. Not coincidentally, it is South Beirut which was bombed. The rest of Beirut got off more-or-less scott free.

Doesn't sound all that indiscriminate to me.

Right because Lebanon's non Shiite population won't be the least bit affected by the destruction of roads, bridges, hospitals, and other infrastructure, not to mention the economic damage. Nope. They're happy, eating their ice cream. :rolleyes:

And just what do you think Israel will have to talk about with Hezbollah, which says it will hunt down and destroy Jews wherever it finds them on Earth, and Iran, which says there was no Holocaust, and swears it will wipe Israel off the map?

Plenty. Let's start with: "Hey, you guys remember we have nuclear weapons and you don't, right? Let's talk!" The point of diplomacy isn't to reach agreements or get everyone together to sing Kumbaya. It's to get positions and messages across that just don't sound quite the same when it takes the form of a 1,000 pound bomb detonating (those kinds of messages tend to be misinterpreted). Right now, no one's talking. How's that worked out?

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