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The best option for Israel is to devise a way to go back in time and alter the diet of our ancient mammal ancestors so that we evolve to only requier the consumption of grown food, instead of meat. Obviously the consumption of meat has encouraged a large part of our cruel nature. The absence of it might have made us slightly more peaceful.

(the curious thoughts is... Is my absurd solution any less easier to obtain then some of the solutions that could be suggested?)

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In the short term, Israel needs to continue to make it clear to the Palestinians that life is going to be hell for them as long as they continue to attack Israel. I think, frankly, they're being too gentle. They should destroy all electricity production in Gaza, smash their roads, destroy irrigation systems, sewers, etc.

War crimes all.

Tough

Wow. Those of us who hold to a culture of personal responsibilty tend to be less generous. I blame every member of Hezbollah and Hamas from bottom to top, the civilian populations which support them, the nations which provide money and encouragement, and the governments which pretend to hold sovereignty over a given area but then shrug and say they can do nothing about terrorists attacking their neighbours.

A persumption of collective responsibility that would give Himmler a hard-on.

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

Again, this is exactly the same logic used by the Nazis when dealing with partisans in WW2 when they would murder entire communities as a reprisal for individual acts of resistance violence.

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

You should be proud of the ethical company you keep. (It's also worth pointing out that such strategies never ever work. For some reason, people tend to blame the people dropping the bombs, not the people who "made" the bombers bomb.)

Yeah, actually, they do work, given the right circumstances, and the population already hates Israelis. If they want to hate them a little more that's fine, as long as they stop their brethren from firing missiles into Israel.

And if they don't want to do that, let them live without roads, bridges, fuel, electricity or running water. <_<

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Tough

See you there!

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

After, all, they are just untermenschen anyway.

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

Do try to keep up. I wasn't talking of extant policies, but of your little wet dream which I quoted.

Yeah, actually, they do work, given the right circumstances, and the population already hates Israelis. If they want to hate them a little more that's fine, as long as they stop their brethren from firing missiles into Israel.

Proof? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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Tough

See you there!

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

After, all, they are just untermenschen anyway.

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

Do try to keep up. I wasn't talking of extant policies, but of your little wet dream which I quoted.

Yeah, actually, they do work, given the right circumstances, and the population already hates Israelis. If they want to hate them a little more that's fine, as long as they stop their brethren from firing missiles into Israel.

Proof? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Nothing like the snivelling of one who is badly losing a debate. :lol: What's that law again that refers to the one who brings Hitler (or in this case Nazis) into the debate as the loser? It's interesting how many people siding with Hebollah and Hamas are comparing Israel to the Nazis. hmmm

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Nothing like the snivelling of one who is badly losing a debate. What's that law again that refers to the one who brings Hitler (or in this case Nazis) into the debate as the loser?

Actually, Godwin's Law states only that as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. It has nothing to do with winning or losing. Try and be sure you know what you're talking about before opening your yap.

It's interesting how many people siding with Hebollah and Hamas are comparing Israel to the Nazis. hmmm

It's interesting because I know I have not compared Israel to the Nazis. I was comparing Argus' support of policies of collective punishment with those favoured by the Nazis. If you'd prefer, I could just as easily used the Red Army under Stalin or even Imperial Germany during WW1 in my comparison, but I fear those examples lack the same "oomph."

It's also interesting how many Manachean idiots equate criticism of Israel with "siding with" the other side, as is your determination to turn this into a debate about me as oppossed to the issues. That's not to say I'm not flattered by your attention, but I don't roll like that.

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Actually, Godwin's Law states only that as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. It has nothing to do with winning or losing. Try and be sure you know what you're talking about before opening your yap.

:lol: About opening your yap...

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.
It's also interesting how many Manachean idiots equate criticism of Israel with "siding with" the other side, as is your determination to turn this into a debate about me as oppossed to the issues. That's not to say I'm not flattered by your attention, but I don't roll like that.

As much as you like champion yourself as the defender against adhominem you sure do seem to make a lot of use of it. I'm just looking out for you Black Dog. I don't want you to leave because you're getting kicked around by Rue and Argus. After who would be left to regurgitate the Air America talking points. ;)

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Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Monday that his country will continue its offensive against Hezbollah until its two captured soldiers were released and Hezbollah no longer controls southern Lebanon.
link

Interesting that all that is necessary to stop the big, bad, fascist Israel is to give them their 2 troops back.

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It's also interesting how many Manachean idiots equate criticism of Israel with "siding with" the other side, as is your determination to turn this into a debate about me as oppossed to the issues. That's not to say I'm not flattered by your attention, but I don't roll like that.
That, I have to say, is a good point BD. Israeli zeal is sometimes counterproductive.

Lebanon (and Israel) are barely larger than Los Angeles county and yet they frequently command the world's attention. One almost has the impression that they are like an exhibitionist couple that thrives on making scenes in public.

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About opening your yap...

QUOTE

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.

Oh well, if wikipedia says so.... :rolleyes:

As much as you like champion yourself as the defender against adhominem you sure do seem to make a lot of use of it. I'm just looking out for you Black Dog. I don't want you to leave because you're getting kicked around by Rue and Argus. After who would be left to regurgitate the Air America talking points

Let me explain the difference between ad hominems and just good old fashioned ridicule. An ad hominem is when one ignores the argument to focus on the person making the argument (that's your scthick). Now, since you seldom actually make an argument, there's no points for me to ignore, which makes any commentary directed at you simple ridicule. Douchebag.

And August, I know what you mean. Israel's supporters often question why Israel receives so much attention compared to other places, yet, in the U.S. especially, Israel occupies a central part of the foreign policy agenda. IOW it seems only natural that the country which receives a disproportionate amount of aid would also get a disproportionate amount of scrutiny.

Another factor is the manner of Israel’s creation. Unlike other colonial relics (such as the Arab Middle East) Israel has the distinction of being populated primarily by European transplants. In other words, Israel is the west’s creation and thus one could argue that the west is somewhat accountable for the entire situation.

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The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

After, all, they are just untermenschen anyway.

If that means morons then yeah. They've already gone through this before. You'd have thought they'd have figured out by now that playing host to fanatical terrorist groups and letting them attack Israel would be counter to their interests. Apparently not, though.

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

Do try to keep up. I wasn't talking of extant policies, but of your little wet dream which I quoted.

I think you were talking out of your ass - where I'm betting most of your wet dreams are focused - about your own imaginary evil-Israeli policies.

Yeah, actually, they do work, given the right circumstances, and the population already hates Israelis. If they want to hate them a little more that's fine, as long as they stop their brethren from firing missiles into Israel.

Proof? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Proof of what? Idiocy? Your post is more than sufficient.

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An ad hominem is when one ignores the argument to focus on the person making the argument (that's your scthick).

Hmmm. Ignoring the argument like say pasting a picture of Nuremburg or perhaps calling someone a "douchebag".

The Nurenberg picture was in specific context of the argument. The douchebag comment, well, like I said: if you actually had a point to make, then I'd consider the argument and a appropriate response. But since all you've been doing is trolling me with asinine personal comments, well, you reap what you sow. Anyway, I'm done with your shit.

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An ad hominem is when one ignores the argument to focus on the person making the argument (that's your scthick).

Hmmm. Ignoring the argument like say pasting a picture of Nuremburg or perhaps calling someone a "douchebag".

The Nurenberg picture was in specific context of the argument. The douchebag comment, well, like I said: if you actually had a point to make, then I'd consider the argument and a appropriate response. But since all you've been doing is trolling me with asinine personal comments, well, you reap what you sow. Anyway, I'm done with your shit.

Ya the context of calling someone a war criminal. I hope you're done, done with the verbal abuse.

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The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

Nice moral compass you got there. I think it might be stuck on "batshit crazy", though.

If that means morons then yeah. They've already gone through this before. You'd have thought they'd have figured out by now that playing host to fanatical terrorist groups and letting them attack Israel would be counter to their interests. Apparently not, though.

And what, pray tell, are they suppossed to do about it? Lebanon just got out from one civil war: no one is going to rush off and start another in Israel's service. And no one is going to blame Hizbullah for Israel taking the war to Lebanon proper if Israel starts making life miserable for everyone concerned.

I think you were talking out of your ass - where I'm betting most of your wet dreams are focused - about your own imaginary evil-Israeli policies.

Now you're even losing the thread of your own arguments. Sad.

Just to recap:

What Israel is doing is showing the Lebanese that if they want to support a terrorist group and have that group continually attacking Israel, they're going to pay the price for it. ANY other nation on earth, including this one, would do the same. And if the Israelis have to reduce Lebanon and Gaza to the stone age, with its people living in mud huts without electricity or running water in order to persuade them it's a bad idea to keep firing missiles at Israeli cities then they should go for it. Moral high ground? What utter twaddle!

IOW: you were advocating Israel adopt a scorched earth policy to teach those dastardly Lebanese a lesson. The above cite isn't the only time you've proposed this, I believe there are others. You've also explicitly dismissed any moral concerns over the concpet of collective punishment (again, putting you in the same part of the moral spectrum as some of history's greatest criminals, a comparison I made thereafter). When confornted, you tried to dodge by pointing out that israel (to your apparent chagrin) has not yet adopted these policies. To recap: you put a position forward which was the position I responded to. So I'd like to know what exactly I'm inventing here.

Proof of what? Idiocy? Your post is more than sufficient.

Proof that your dream strategy would actually work. Because historically, people do not respond to acts of collective punishment in the way you predict.

Anyway, I think your little harangue here shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your argument.

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The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

Nice moral compass you got there. I think it might be stuck on "batshit crazy", though.

It's called realism. You're stuck so far over on the left you simply don't recognize it.

If that means morons then yeah. They've already gone through this before. You'd have thought they'd have figured out by now that playing host to fanatical terrorist groups and letting them attack Israel would be counter to their interests. Apparently not, though.

And what, pray tell, are they suppossed to do about it? Lebanon just got out from one civil war: no one is going to rush off and start another in Israel's service. And no one is going to blame Hizbullah for Israel taking the war to Lebanon proper if Israel starts making life miserable for everyone concerned.

If 90% of Lebanese want nothing to do with Hezbollah then it'll be a very short civil war, shorter than this one is likely to be, with less damage.

What Israel is doing is showing the Lebanese that if they want to support a terrorist group and have that group continually attacking Israel, they're going to pay the price for it. ANY other nation on earth, including this one, would do the same. And if the Israelis have to reduce Lebanon and Gaza to the stone age, with its people living in mud huts without electricity or running water in order to persuade them it's a bad idea to keep firing missiles at Israeli cities then they should go for it. Moral high ground? What utter twaddle!

IOW: you were advocating Israel adopt a scorched earth policy to teach those dastardly Lebanese a lesson.

Advocating is an exaggeration. I said if that's what they have to do to secure their borders, then so be it. I dislike stupid people. If the Lebanese continue to do stupid things I won't feel terribly sorry for them.

The above cite isn't the only time you've proposed this, I believe there are others. You've also explicitly dismissed any moral concerns over the concpet of collective punishment (again, putting you in the same part of the moral spectrum as some of history's greatest criminals,

Like Roosevelt and Churchill? Like Napolean and Wellington? Like Abraham Lincoln?

The people of a nation are always punished for the actions of that nation. In many cases that's unfair, as the action cannot at all be blamed on them. I think this time the Lebanese could have done something but found it easier to do nothing, since it wasn't their asses on the line. Well, now it is.

Proof of what? Idiocy? Your post is more than sufficient.

Proof that your dream strategy would actually work. Because historically, people do not respond to acts of collective punishment in the way you predict.

Anyway, I think your little harangue here shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your argument.

Either they respond, or they sit in the mud chanting allah akhbar while their kids eat grass.

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Israel vacated the South of Lebanon precisely because people like Black Dog complained how unfair and unjust it was for Israel to control Southern Lebanon and the South Lebanese Army which buffered Israel from Hezbollah and the Syrians and prevented missile and cross border attacks. Of course the United Nations led by France, China, Russia, and the European Union continued to lecture Israel as being an occupier and villain and Israel withdrew when it should have left the SLA where it was.

Sure enough, as Israel withdrew, Hezbollah moved in and concentrated itself all along the Israeli border with the full cooperation and funding of Syria and Iran and it took over half of Beirut.

This is what Israel gets for vacating. It gives land for peace for what? It leaves the Gaza for what? In BlackDog's simplistic world of evil Zionists, its all the bad guy Jewish Israelis and anyone who believes Jews should have a country that are responsible for everything.

The point is when Israel tries to give land for peace, it comes face to face on its borders with terrorist organizations that believe in its destruction not peaceful coexistence.

The point is Hezbollah took over Lebanon. It took over all of the South and it took over half of Beirut. It placed its headquarters, missile sites, bomb making and terrorist operations smack dab in the heart of civilian populations. That is what groups like Hezbollah and Hamas do best-hiding behind civilians so that when Israel strikes innocent civilians die hoping the public will turn on Israel. Thatr is the m.o. attack Israel then hide behind civilians and hope civilians deliberately die so that the world turns against Israel. Its a pathetic manipulation of innocent civilians.

The fact is Israel can't hold back. It is in a struggle for its very existence It is now engaged in a deadly war of survival. As missiles kill civilians in Haifa and other cities, it will strike back at where0ever Hezbollah is and because Hezbollah deliberately chooses to hide behind civilians, civilians will die.

As for Syria and Iran who prop up Hezbollah and turned Lebanon into a shell country with no real government or army it is the utmost hippocracy for them or France or Russia or anyone else to open their big mouths and lecture Israel.

Israel is through talking.

Civilians will die.

Lebanon as a nation has already ceased to exist. It is now rubble.

What Israel is clearly doing is pushing Hezbollah North to the Syrian border and will create a new buffer zone. Now that Iran and Syria have supplied Hezbollah with up-to-date missiles, there is a war going on. Syria and Iran are at War with Israel only being the cowards that they are they will do it through Hezbollah and not send their armies because their armies are corupted, weak and have no logistics capable of supporting an invasion of Israel. They will do what they do best, hide behind someone else and act passively letting other people fight their war.

As for Hezbollah, it is a fierce terrorist organization but it is doomed to failure for a simple reason - as much as it disrespects and wishes all Jews dead, it loaths Christian Lebanese, Christian Arabs, Druze, Sunni Muslims and everything else that moves. It would also turn on Syria in a second if it could and did not need their support.

For the first time in the history of the Arab Leaguge of nations there was not a universal condemnation of Israel for fighting back against Hezbollah. That is not an accident. Many Arab nations including Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Morrocco, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait and Oman fear Hezbollah and fundamentalism Shiite Islam. As much as Russia's Putin scolds Israel he and the Turkish in secret support everything Israel is doing because they also loath the Shiite Muslim fundamentalists given their proximity to Russia and Turkey.

Then we have China trying to stay friendly with Iran so as not to prejudice their oil supply but on the other hand brutally exterminating its own Muslim Chinese fundamentalists primarily supplied by Iran.

When all is said and done there will be a war with Syria and Iran. It is inevitable. It is inescapable at this point.

We can not also forget that Egypt could at a moment's notice assassinate Mubarak seeing the Muslim Brotherhood seize control and turn that country into a Sunni fundamentalist regime like Iran.

Saudi Arabia and Jordan could also be subject to a massive civil war by fundamentalists so let us not kid ourselves.

This is a war between Muslim fundamentalism and anything perceived as Western.

The irony is these same fundamentalists would love to get their hands on a Blackdog and cut off his naive head.

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This is what Israel gets for vacating. It gives land for peace for what? It leaves the Gaza for what? In BlackDog's simplistic world of evil Zionists, its all the bad guy Jew-Israelis responsible for everything.

Great. Another Manichean.

The point is Hezbollah took over Lebanon. It took over all of the South and it took over half of Beirut. It placed its headquarters, missile sites, bomb making and terrorist operations smack dab in the heart civilian populations. That is what groups like Hezbollah and Hamas to best-hiding behind civilians so that when Israel strikes innocent civilians die and simplistic people like Blackdog simply parrot the same old same old, that Israel is evil and should not defend itself and is bad bad bad.

This is a vertiable strawman clinic. You're whaling on that construct, dude!

The fact is Israel no longer gives a shit what the Blackdogs and Jaque Chiracs of the world think. It is now engaged in a deadly war of survival. As missiles kill civilians in Haifa and other cities, it will strike back at whereever Hezbollah is and because Hezbollah deliberately chooses to hide behind civilians, civilians will die.

Those shitty Qassams were a boon to people like you, weren't they? Without the idea of an existensial threat to Israel you'd have nothing to do, so you seize on any threat, no matter how perposterous, to support your cherished belief in Israel beseiged. Not sure why that's so important, but it's like your lifeblood.

The only people happier than Hizbullah at the site of rockets crashing into Israeli neighbourhoods appear to be some of those on this thread who are Israel's staunchest defenders.

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I see I missed out on something while I was at work. Since when do me and Black Dog ever end up the same side of an argument? I'm sure hell just froze over.

The emotional tirade by Kindred was clearly anti-semitic as evidenced by his use of "the poor Jews". His use of the "...Jews intent to kill..." rather than distinguishing between Jewish people and the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic? When Israel chose the Star of David to be on their flag, they made a choice. Israel is Jewish, though I suppose not all Jews are Israeli. I wonder how many are taking Lebanon's side in this?

An ad hominem is when one ignores the argument to focus on the person making the argument (that's your scthick).

Hmmm. Ignoring the argument like say pasting a picture of Nuremburg or perhaps calling someone a "douchebag".

How are you contributing to the argument? Please you two, knock it off, just more crap for me to read.

The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

Hmm, so your implying if the German's won, then gasing Jews is ok. I mean, it's only wrong if you get caught... where'd you pick up your ethics?

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

But you do have a problem with Israel being collectively responsible for their actions... interesting.

They've already gone through this before. You'd have thought they'd have figured out by now that playing host to fanatical terrorist groups and letting them attack Israel would be counter to their interests. Apparently not, though.

And when Israel realises randomly bombing houses in an attack of vengence just really pisses off their neighbours...

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

Like attacking Lebanon when the nation had nothing to do with the violence until the Israeli's breeched their soverignty? Remember 90% of Lebanese people voted for peace and against Hezbollah. This is just indiscriminate violence against a population based soley on their nationality, nothing to do with their intents towards Israel.

Tell me what highways in the Northern areas have to do with Israel, or the airport that won't be operational for months now? How about the random bombings of houses... like the Canadians that were killed. It's just an attack on Lebanon, and has nothing to do with taking out Hezbollah, they'll never catch them all from the air.

Hezbollah needs to back down, and hand back the soliders, no doubt. I'd never side with their terrorist tactics. I'm ok with Israel defending itself, bombing every Hezbollah office, even invading the southern areas and shooting each Hezbollah operative. That is their right to defend their soverignty.

But Israel has already killed a disproportionally high number of innocent Lebanese, and it's unacceptable. It amounts to an attempt to 'punish' Lebanon, which is ridiculous when your playing with human lives.

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The emotional tirade by Kindred was clearly anti-semitic as evidenced by his use of "the poor Jews". His use of the "...Jews intent to kill..." rather than distinguishing between Jewish people and the state of Israel.

So is Jew a dirty word to you? Nice. My friends who are JEWS call themselves JEWS, my INDIAN friends call themselves INDIANS - only in Canada where people are concerned that they might not be politcally correct do they shy away from the word JEW and INDIAN - why?

Because you are used to using the words in racist jokes you tell? People of Israel, give me a break already - If I ask my friend Morley what he is, he doesnt say he is a "Person of Israel", he says he is a "JEW" and so does David, and Daniel, and all my other Jewish friends -- :rolleyes:

If thats the best you can do to call someone a racist you are really stretching it - I said "poor Jews" because some of these posts are outrageous in their statements and belief that the JEWS are innocent victims, as in "poor victims" as in sarcasm in response to these posts.

The word from Israel yesterday was that the kidnapped soldiers were alive and in reasonable good shape, has that changed? Someone, probably Argus, posted that Lebanon deserved to be bombed in payment for the death of the soldiers or some such thing ............

I have read a lot of racist posts - Muslim Goat Herders living in Canada for instance, but I havent seen any anti-Semetic posts, only posts from thinking rational people who arent foaming at the mouth in an emotional racist rant against the Arabs ............. :unsure:

All Jews = good All Arabs = bad yah right, thats NOT racist --------

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Oh yah the intent to kill thing, I have been reading Jewish forums, as soon as I find one where posters are promoting peace I will let you know .......... I have been reading some pretty scary things .... upsetting to see such racist attitudes. :(

I am anti-Semetic or anti-Arab I know what I read and see and hear ........ from the internet, the news, forums and even some of my Jewish friends. The hate is very real and very scary. On both sides ...

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Dear geoffrey,

How are you contributing to the argument? Please you two, knock it off, just more crap for me to read.
Well said. These are two very good posters who have taken things a bit far...to suspension/banning levels, actually. T'would be a shame, losing either one.
The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

Hmm, so your implying if the German's won, then gasing Jews is ok. I mean, it's only wrong if you get caught... where'd you pick up your ethics?

Argus is correct here, and he is pointing out that the Allies did in fact do things that would have seen others hung...by the victors. It is an example of the absence of ethics, not faulty ones. Cold, hard pragmatism is another description of it. The nature of a 'right' was covered thoroughly on another thread (where debate about the Holocaust, and the rights of Jews, and 'rights' in general, got so heated one very good former poster, "the Terrible Sweal" ended up being banned for actions such as what Argus and Black Dog have sunken to). Basically, yes, the gassing of Jews would not have been against the law had the Nazis won.
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Those shitty Qassams were a boon to people like you, weren't they? Without the idea of an existensial threat to Israel you'd have nothing to do, so you seize on any threat, no matter how perposterous, to support your cherished belief in Israel beseiged.

Are you suggesting there is no real threat and Israel is not really besieged?

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I see I missed out on something while I was at work. Since when do me and Black Dog ever end up the same side of an argument? I'm sure hell just froze over.

The emotional tirade by Kindred was clearly anti-semitic as evidenced by his use of "the poor Jews". His use of the "...Jews intent to kill..." rather than distinguishing between Jewish people and the state of Israel.

Anti-semitic? When Israel chose the Star of David to be on their flag, they made a choice. Israel is Jewish, though I suppose not all Jews are Israeli. I wonder how many are taking Lebanon's side in this?

And why is that important to you?

The Allies dropped high explosive all over German and Japanese cities.

War crimes are only for those who lose. And the only way Israel is going to lose is if someone nukes them.

In which case it's unlikely there'll be many Arabs around to try and press for war crimes trials.

Hmm, so your implying if the German's won, then gasing Jews is ok. I mean, it's only wrong if you get caught... where'd you pick up your ethics?

I didn't say anything about right and wrong. Laws don't always relate to right and wrong.

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

But you do have a problem with Israel being collectively responsible for their actions... interesting.

Depends on the actions. What would you like to hold all Israelis responsible for? Defending themselves?

They've already gone through this before. You'd have thought they'd have figured out by now that playing host to fanatical terrorist groups and letting them attack Israel would be counter to their interests. Apparently not, though.

And when Israel realises randomly bombing houses in an attack of vengence just really pisses off their neighbours...

Are you suggesting Israel is just "randomly" bombing houses. Even BD said they weren't killing civilians deliberately. Do you think otherwise?

And when the Israelis start murdering entire communities you get back to me.

Like attacking Lebanon when the nation had nothing to do with the violence until the Israeli's breeched their soverignty?

You don't get to divorce yourself from the actions of a state-recognized militia which operates openly on your territory, has tv stations and radio stations, has MPs and cabinet ministers in parliament....

Remember 90% of Lebanese people voted for peace and against Hezbollah.

Lebanese people vote for whomever is in their religion. Since the Shias only represent about 11% of Lebanese, they were the ones voting for Hezbolah. That does not imply the rest of Lebanese didn't hate Israelis, and weren't quite happy to see Israelis shot, killed and or kidnapped.

This is just indiscriminate violence against a population based soley on their nationality, nothing to do with their intents towards Israel.

So you disagree with BD. You're saying the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians? I'd just like to get that statement out in the open.

Tell me what highways in the Northern areas have to do with Israel, or the airport that won't be operational for months now?

They're a message to the rest of the Lebanese. Get rid of the terrorists.

But Israel has already killed a disproportionally high number of innocent Lebanese, and it's unacceptable. It amounts to an attempt to 'punish' Lebanon, which is ridiculous when your playing with human lives.

What would be a "proportionate" number of innocent Lebanese? And how do you attack a terrorist guerrila group which operates from cities and towns without harming civilians?

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