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jdobbin

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What does Hamas really want?

Read the list of conditions published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them.

withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence;

release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested;

an end to the siege and opening of the crossings;

opening of a port and airport under UN management;

expansion of the fishing zone;

international supervision of the Rafah crossing;

an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and

closure of Gazas air space to Israeli aircraft;

permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque;

and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government;

opening Gazas industrial zone.

.

Are you serious?

Why do you ignore that all of the above are not the issue.

Israel has never denied any of the above.

Are you that oblivious to what is going on?

The above is not possible because when Israel tried to begin to provide the above, they were attacked by Hamas.

The above is not the issue, disarming Hamas is.

Until Hamas is disarmed the above is not possible.

No Jacee in the real world peace can't come about until the people who make such demands don't remain in a state of war dedicated to wiping out Israel and will keep trying using all of the above being requested as ways to get into Israel to destroy it.

You live in a fantasy world where the people who come to pray in Jerusalem will not be strapped with bombs or bringing in weapons and bombs for terrorist operations.

In your fantasy world there are no terrorists. Everyone is innocent in Gaza and on the West Bank and poof just like that if Israel does what ever you think Hamas wants, Hamas will stop its terrorism.

Dream on. Pretend. Live that illusion.

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Are you serious?

Why do you ignore that all of the above are not the issue.

Israel has never denied any of the above.

Are you that oblivious to what is going on?

The above is not possible because when Israel tried to begin to provide the above, they were attacked by Hamas.

The above is not the issue, disarming Hamas is.

Until Hamas is disarmed the above is not possible.

No Jacee in the real world peace can't come about until the people who make such demands don't remain in a state of war dedicated to wiping out Israel and will keep trying using all of the above being requested as ways to get into Israel to destroy it.

You live in a fantasy world where the people who come to pray in Jerusalem will not be strapped with bombs or bringing in weapons and bombs for terrorist operations.

In your fantasy world there are no terrorists. Everyone is innocent in Gaza and on the West Bank and poof just like that if Israel does what ever you think Hamas wants, Hamas will stop its terrorism.

Dream on. Pretend. Live that illusion.

Would you agree to a 10 year Hamas cease fire on those conditions?

.

Edited by jacee
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What does Hamas really want?

Read the list of conditions published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them.

withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence;

release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested;

an end to the siege and opening of the crossings;

opening of a port and airport under UN management;

expansion of the fishing zone;

international supervision of the Rafah crossing;

an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and

closure of Gazas air space to Israeli aircraft;

permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque;

and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government;

opening Gazas industrial zone.

.

So Hamas fires rockets into Israel, and then issues a list of demands, of rewards it insists on before it will stop firing those rockets...

What nation on Earth would allow itself to be bullied into giving someone what it wants in this manner, particularly if they had the means to fight back?

I'm not saying, btw, that some of the stuff on that wish list shouldn't be given to them. I'm saying that there isn't a chance in hell it will get them this way. Israel is not the kind of country to let itself be bullied or blackmailed into submitting on stuff like that.

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A 10 year cease fire is the offer from Hamas/Islamic Jihad, with those conditions.

I think that's pretty reasonable.

Hamas is growing up, I think, listening to the people of Gaza who want to be more self sufficient and develop industry and opportunity in peace and freedom.

Hamas will not have shown any growth until it alters its charter so it doesn't embrace the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and demand the death of Jews.

And I don't see any chance Israel will talk go them before that either.

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Would you agree to a 10 year Hamas cease fire on those conditions?

.

Why would Israel trust the word of a terrorist organization dedicated to the death of Jews?

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,'

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So Hamas fires rockets into Israel, and then issues a list of demands, of rewards it insists on before it will stop firing those rockets...

Yes that's right.

Hamas will stop firing rockets

for ten years.

I'm not saying, btw, that some of the stuff on that wish list shouldn't be given to them.

All of them are reasonable.

I'm saying that there isn't a chance in hell it will get them this way. Israel is not the kind of country to let itself be bullied or blackmailed into submitting on stuff like that.

Huff puff chest thump macho politico crapolo.

Get back to me on what your wife thinks. :)

.

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Hamas will not have shown any growth until it alters its charter so it doesn't embrace the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and demand the death of Jews.

And I don't see any chance Israel will talk go them before that either.

A cease fire is just a cease fire.

10 years, for reasonable terms.

.

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withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence;

So Hamas can build their tunnels closer to the Israeli border for an easier strike

release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested;

All? How many more terrorists is that?

an end to the siege and opening of the crossings;

So Hamas can sneak terrorists and weapons into Gaza just a little easier

opening of a port and airport under UN management;

An Airport? So they can stock fighter jets?

expansion of the fishing zone;

international supervision of the Rafah crossing;

So Hamas' Iranian pals can visit easier.

an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and

Just relax while we restock - you can trust Hamas

closure of Gazas air space to Israeli aircraft;

What don't they want Israel to see?

permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque;

...With bombs strapped to their chests

and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government;

So Hamas or whatever despot regime can take over with impunity

opening Gazas industrial zone.

So Hamas can properly manufacture what? Bombs, rockets...Maybe just textiles

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Why would Israel trust the word of a terrorist organization dedicated to the death of Jews?

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,'

No doubt there's plenty of hate on both extremes

like dre's report of common Israeli coffee shop talk about Palestinians:

"When is the government going to get the n-----s off our land.

10 years cease fire ... on the table.

.

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Do you know who Neville Chamberlain was?

I get the reference.

Very few if any people here have a citizen's vote in this dispute.

I'm interested in what the people of Palestine and Israel think of this proposal, and more interested in womens' opinions.

.

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No doubt there's plenty of hate on both extremes

like dre's report of common Israeli coffee shop talk about Palestinians:

"When is the government going to get the n-----s off our land.

10 years cease fire ... on the table.

.

Israel cant have a ceasefire. If the violence stopped for a few years they would be under intense pressure to withdraw to their legal borders, and they have no intention of ever doing that.

Why would you want to end a conflict that has allowed you to triple the size of your country, and plunder other peoples land for vital resources?

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I get the reference.

Very few if any people here have a citizen's vote in this dispute.

I'm interested in what the people of Palestine and Israel think of this proposal, and more interested in womens' opinions.

.

Really? Me too! I think that with the whole "sisterhood" thing women would care more about women in oppressive countries/religions, but they're not. I can't figure it out. It seems to be conservative men who want to free these women, but the womens groups of the western world say (or do) nothing.

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Israel cant have a ceasefire. If the violence stopped for a few years they would be under intense pressure to withdraw to their legal borders, and they have no intention of ever doing that.

They're already under intense international pressure to do that. And to stop building settlements, among many other things But Israel is a rogue state. It doesn't listen to the UN or international law or the international community, Israel does whatever Israel wants.

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Really? Me too! I think that with the whole "sisterhood" thing women would care more about women in oppressive countries/religions, but they're not. I can't figure it out. It seems to be conservative men who want to free these women, but the womens groups of the western world say (or do) nothing.

I don't know what you're on about, but I'm not much interested in responses that involve chest thumping macho threats and posturing.

The women who actually manage families will have more intelligent and sensible responses.

Women and civil society groups on both sides advocating for peaceful resolution of the conflict have been excluded from official negotiations despite UN Security Council Resolution 1325, which requires the meaningful participation of women in decision making. Yet, in a parallel, a movement of peace activists is steadily growing with Israeli and Palestinian activists crossing the divides and engaging in nonviolent actions side-by-side.

Asks

* All parties should renew peace talks, engaging in inclusive dialogue and with the meaningful participation of women from all sides of the conflict, and with a genuine commitment to imminent and nonviolent resolution of the conflict.

- See more at: http://nobelwomensinitiative.org/women-forging-peace/israel-palestine/context/#sthash.bRNIo0DL.dpuf

Edited by jacee
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Israel cant have a ceasefire. If the violence stopped for a few years they would be under intense pressure to withdraw to their legal borders, and they have no intention of ever doing that.

Why would you want to end a conflict that has allowed you to triple the size of your country, and plunder other peoples land for vital resources?

It seems to me that Hamas/Islamic Jihad have put a reasonable offer on the table that is calling Israel's bluff.

.

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I haven't been participating in this discussion but I read an excellent article this morning and thought it worth sharing:

"7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict" - Ali A. Rizvi

By falling into the trap of choosing sides we are part of the problem: "By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization."

Pretty accurate article - well worth everyone giving it a thorough read.

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They're already under intense international pressure to do that. And to stop building settlements, among many other things But Israel is a rogue state. It doesn't listen to the UN or international law or the international community, Israel does whatever Israel wants.

They arent under any real pressure at all, they are basically being given a complete pass.

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Israel is not being "given" anything...it is a sovereign state that will act in its own self interest, just like any other would do in such circumstances. The UN can't/won't do squat about actions to demilitarize Gaza. Everybody talks a good humanitarian game, but none will commit any skin to actually stopping Israel's actions and policies. Who wants to die for Hamas ?

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