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Well what would a debate be withoout Higgly and his standard one dimensional its all Israel's fault thesis and revising of history to suit this Israel bad bad bad and caused all the problems thesis

Interesting no where in Higgly's thesis does he ever suggest the Arab League, Palestinian leaders, and/or Palestinian people who have chosen violence, coruption and the belief that Jews are evil and Israel must be eradicated, have anything to do with their problems.

This depiction of Palestinians as all being innocent victims is as Higgly would say tiresome. So is the double standard that Palestinians must have two nations, and the Muslim world must be allowed to have as many Muslim nations as it wants, but Jews can't have one and anything that has gone wrong in the Middle East is the fault of Jews.

Not only tiresome but pointless. Any thesis that deliberately creates victims and chooses only to argue one side of the equation is intellectually defective. Victimization is a process for those who need to turn the world into bad and good guys and scapegoat one group for another's failures.

It is one thing to use such constructs to write WWE wrestling scripts, but when discussing political and human conflict, some of us prefer to use more then one dimension when constructing our views as to conflicts.

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When has any Palestinian leader ever had anything to offer to his or her people except struggle? The current state of the Palestinians reminds me of a now famous experiment in Psychology where a population of lab rats is put into a sealed environment and has its food continually reduced until they start to eat each other. The record of both the Israeli and American governments in this regard is disgusting.

Numerous times....including peace plans supported by Canada. Actually, when has any Palestinian leader offered "leadership" that would benefit Palestinians? No shortage of opportunities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords#...cy_and_treaties

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Funny how it is, Rue, that whenever I use historical fact, you resort to emotional poor-meism. Sad, really.

What historical facts? Al l you have done from day one, is to select only certain aspects of what you think happened in the past, take them out of context, misrepresent their true content, and then subjectively without any logical connection assume they match your personal agenda to show the world Israel and Jews bad bad bad Palestinians innocent victims. Your agenda is blatant and its not intellectually credible precisely because it is so transparently one dimensional. You want to pat yourself on the back and play the role now of " I am right and you are wrong..." oh be my guest. You have been playing that tune since you started your diatribes against Israel and selectively revising history and making not so coded slurs against Jews.

To now get smug and patronizing with me and suggest you are the only one who understands history and can state it is laughable. I stand by all my comments in response to any you have made. There is not one word in my responses to you that has done anything but challenge you as someone whose biases prohibits him from presenting his arguements in a balanced way. Never at any time have I said to anyone or you I feel victimized by you. You are confusing me with yourself. You are quite the pompous and presumptious one thinking anything you say can get me to doubt myself or the fact that your anti-Israel diatribes barely masks your own subjective agenda not just with Israel but with all Jews. I refer back all your posts. They speak for themselves. So do mine.

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"When has any Palestinian leader ever had anything to offer to his or her people except struggle? "

"The current state of the Palestinians reminds me of a now famous experiment in Psychology where a population of lab rats...."i

Numerous times....including peace plans supported by Canada. Actually, when has any Palestinian leader offered "leadership" that would benefit Palestinians? No shortage of opportunities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords#...cy_and_treaties

The above comment by Higgly are typical of the kind of subjective and selective comments that simply reflect his biases and need to portray the Palestinian-Israel conflict in simplistic terms so that he can feel he understands them and then write in and lecture others on the "truth", i.e., Israel bad bad bad.

To make a nonsensical rhetorical comment like "when has any Palestinian leader ever had anything to offer his people except struggle" patronizes and insults numerous Palestinians who have worked hard to offer their people alternatives to violence and political coruption. The deliberate choice of words victimizes all Palestinians and lumps them all as idiots incapable of being able to be rational and lead themselves with anything other then terrorist cells.

How idiotic are such comments. Well for starters anyone who has actually worked with Palestinian officials as I have, would know they would tell Higgly to f..ck right off with such patronizing and simplistic comments where he tries to take on their role as all knowing protector and sympathizer. They do not need or want the patronizing arm chair potatoes like Higgly spewing off platitudes from the safety and coziness of their sheltered distance.

They want someone to disarm Hamas and Al Fatah and allow them to set up cooperatives and economic

relations with Israel and Jordan and let them rebuild the roads to Israel so they can go their to work and sell their produce.

They do not want their hospitals, schools, community centres used as terrorist operation sites.

They are sick and tired of turning on the t.v. and having to watch Hamas use a cartoon mouse to tell their children they should blow themselves up fighting the infidels next door in Israel.

Palestinians are not victimzied morons completely helpless to do nothing but engage in terror despite Higgly's childish black and white depictiions. Of course when Higgly uses the word "struggle" it is a couched or coded word for terror because he does not have the integrity to come out and say-terrorism in his opinion is justifiable because that is the only solution Palestinians have. That is what Higgly's true opinion is but he won't say it, he has to couch it and use inferences and rhetoric portraying Palestinians as simpering fools.

Excuse me if I puke. Neither Israelis or Palestinians need arm-chair geniuses like Higgly partonizing what their struggle is. He does not understand it and is hilarious thinking he can speak about it when he has not lived in the Gaza, West Bank or Israel and does not understand what it means to struggle with daily life as they do. How can he? His sanctimonious posterior is soft and sheltered and has no missiles being shot at it. He isn't going to sleep at night wondering whether a terrorist will kill him.

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Excuse me if I puke. Neither Israelis or Palestinians need arm-chair geniuses like Higgly partonizing what their struggle is. He does not understand it and is hilarious thinking he can speak about it when he has not lived in the Gaza, West Bank or Israel and does not understand what it means to struggle with daily life as they do. How can he? His sanctimonious posterior is soft and sheltered and has no missiles being shot at it. He isn't going to sleep at night wondering whether a terrorist will kill him.
That makes two, and I hope the vomit aroma isn't too strong.

I am fast losing patience with a mentality that seems to require that the West fight with one or two hands tied behind their backs, i.e. under rules that guarantee that they lose. If we fought under anything like Hamas or Fatah rules, the fights in Gaza and on the West Bank would be long over.

I cannot believe we are humiliating Israel, a peace-loving, progressive Western democracy much like ourselves in the pages of mass media, over the treatment of people who, in a minute, would indiscriminately send their own flesh and blood children to blow themselves up in an Israeli restaurant or bus> Heck, they'll even slaughter any Muslim of slightly differing beliefs. Places like Jenin, Nablus and Gaza are not chaotic, dictatorial and dangerous because of the depradations of George W. Bush, Israel or Stephen Harper.

Self-destruction, and destruction of allies, might be the interest of some on this Board. Not mine.

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Self-destruction, and destruction of allies, might be the interest of some on this Board. Not mine.

Again and again you repeat this. Your profile signature implies the same thing. Yet Muslims make up anywhere from 2-5% of the population in the western world, out of which 1-5% are extremists. Considering these numbers, could you please elaborate on how you reach the conclusion that Muslim extremism poses an existential threat to the west?

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Again and again you repeat this. Your profile signature implies the same thing. Yet Muslims make up anywhere from 2-5% of the population in the western world, out of which 1-5% are extremists. Considering these numbers, could you please elaborate on how you reach the conclusion that Muslim extremism poses an existential threat to the west?
It's easier and more initially attractive to cave in to Muslim extremism, under the guise of "negotiations" than it is to stand up to them. Standing up implies violence or war.
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It's easier and more initially attractive to cave in to Muslim extremism, under the guise of "negotiations" than it is to stand up to them. Standing up implies violence or war.

That doesn't answer my question. You repeatedly say that it's us or them, or that unlike some people, you don't want to see destruction of the west. Yet you fail to explain HOW Muslim extremism is an existential threat to the west. I'm all ears if you want to try again.

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It's easier and more initially attractive to cave in to Muslim extremism, under the guise of "negotiations" than it is to stand up to them. Standing up implies violence or war.

That doesn't answer my question. You repeatedly say that it's us or them, or that unlike some people, you don't want to see destruction of the west. Yet you fail to explain HOW Muslim extremism is an existential threat to the west. I'm all ears if you want to try again.

A good start would be the cave-in of a lot of media to "cartoon jihad" last year. Or the reluctance of the police to identify attackers on a Montreal synagogue as Muslim.

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A good start would be the cave-in of a lot of media to "cartoon jihad" last year. Or the reluctance of the police to identify attackers on a Montreal synagogue as Muslim.

The cartoons are appalling, but as I said on that board.... teaching to hate is bad whether done openly as they do or privately as you do.

I do think though that we should move to that board to carry this discussion further, because in my opinion, Palestinians teaching their kids to hate Israel and the US still doesn't explain how Muslim extremism is an EXISTENTIAL threat to western way of life and its destruction as you repeatedly imply.

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I guess I'm not holding my breath on you jbg to answer this question. Truth be known, I've asked many other "Muslims are going to take over and make us bow to Mecca five times a day if we don't invade Middle Eastern countries" crowd the same thing, and if it's any consolation, nobody has been able to explain the link for me yet.

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I guess I'm not holding my breath on you jbg to answer this question. Truth be known, I've asked many other "Muslims are going to take over and make us bow to Mecca five times a day if we don't invade Middle Eastern countries" crowd the same thing, and if it's any consolation, nobody has been able to explain the link for me yet.

Sorry I didn't answer soon enough. I was having a far more useful exchange with another poster on this Board.

If we exist, but without our freedoms, is that a worthwhile way to be. Freedom is not for those scared to fight for it, or for those who don't consider it worth fighting for.

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A good start would be the cave-in of a lot of media to "cartoon jihad" last year. Or the reluctance of the police to identify attackers on a Montreal synagogue as Muslim.

The cartoons are appalling, but as I said on that board.... teaching to hate is bad whether done openly as they do or privately as you do.
First of all, what Board? Link?

Second, for you to accuse me of teaching or spreading hate is itself appalling. I tell the truth; the obvious truth. I don't talk in tongues about it.

You say the cartoons were appalling and justified violence? Was the Holocaust appalling? I'm sure you'd say it was. Did Jews attack studios filming "Hogan's Heros"? Was Zundel violently attacked? (granted, I did not support his expulsion).

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A good start would be the cave-in of a lot of media to "cartoon jihad" last year. Or the reluctance of the police to identify attackers on a Montreal synagogue as Muslim.

The cartoons are appalling, but as I said on that board.... teaching to hate is bad whether done openly as they do or privately as you do.

I do think though that we should move to that board to carry this discussion further, because in my opinion, Palestinians teaching their kids to hate Israel and the US still doesn't explain how Muslim extremism is an EXISTENTIAL threat to western way of life and its destruction as you repeatedly imply.

Perhaps the stark reality that there are several terrorist groups who include Canada as well as the US on their "hit list". When an enemy declared it is about to wreak vengence on you, it is wise to pay attention. I have no wish to wake up dead thanks to some terrorist who set off a bomb where I happened to be.

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If we exist, but without our freedoms, is that a worthwhile way to be. Freedom is not for those scared to fight for it, or for those who don't consider it worth fighting for.

That's nice, and I agree. But you still haven't explained how Muslim Extremism is an >existential< threat to our way of life.

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Perhaps the stark reality that there are several terrorist groups who include Canada as well as the US on their "hit list". When an enemy declared it is about to wreak vengence on you, it is wise to pay attention. I have no wish to wake up dead thanks to some terrorist who set off a bomb where I happened to be.

Nor do I wish anything of the sort. I am just not convinced that there is a threat of a Muslim rule destroying western civilisation and way of life unless impotent tyrants in the Middle-East are overthrown and their countries are invaded.

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Enough radical Islamist groups have threatened the west and our way of life to cause concern. While the majority of approx. 1.2 billion muslims may be peaceful, even if only 10% are of the radical variety, that is enough to do the job and don't forget the radicals have declared their intentions of a world wide Caliphate. At least one of these groups has been banned in Britain. Take a look at what is happening in Europe and even Australia. Much of what is happening in Europe is not reported here by the MSM.

Islam is the fastest growing religion, if it becomes the majority religion in the west, then we would see parliament change, and laws changed, we would see Sharia law implemented. We do have cause for concern, especially women.

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If we exist, but without our freedoms, is that a worthwhile way to be. Freedom is not for those scared to fight for it, or for those who don't consider it worth fighting for.

That's nice, and I agree. But you still haven't explained how Muslim Extremism is an >existential< threat to our way of life.
Because if routine tasks such as going to work in tall buildings or public transportation are fraught with danger, the amount of resources necessary to preserve safety, and the sense of dread going anywhere, will sap our standard of living and reduce our freedoms.
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What historical facts? Al l you have done from day one, is to select only certain aspects of what you think happened in the past, take them out of context, misrepresent their true content, and then subjectively without any logical connection assume they match your personal agenda to show the world Israel and Jews bad bad bad Palestinians innocent victims.

I have cited my sources, Rue, and they are Israeli Jewish historians of considerable repute.. Segev, Shlaim... And I love to wave this in the face of people like you.... Fisk. LOL.

Numerous times....including peace plans supported by Canada. Actually, when has any Palestinian leader offered "leadership" that would benefit Palestinians?... Oslo...

Excuse me if I puke.

I love it when Israelites refer to the Oslo accords. Do you remember the election immediately after Rabin was assassinated, Rue? Netanyahu campaigned on the platform that he would refuse to implement Oslo AND HE GOT ELECTED. Rabin's wife would not even shake hands with Netenyahu at his funeral. Puke indeed.

I am fast losing patience with a mentality that seems to require that the West fight with one or two hands tied behind their backs, i.e. under rules that guarantee that they lose. If we fought under anything like Hamas or Fatah rules, the fights in Gaza and on the West Bank would be long over.

Oh, but you did, JBG. Do you remember the King David Hotel? Do you remember the conditions under which the British suddenly pulled out of Palestine?

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Perhaps the stark reality that there are several terrorist groups who include Canada as well as the US on their "hit list". When an enemy declared it is about to wreak vengence on you, it is wise to pay attention. I have no wish to wake up dead thanks to some terrorist who set off a bomb where I happened to be.

Wait just a minute. When has there ever been any Palestinian terrorist activity in Canada? Enquiring minds want to know.

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Enough radical Islamist groups have threatened the west and our way of life to cause concern. While the majority of approx. 1.2 billion muslims may be peaceful, even if only 10% are of the radical variety, that is enough to do the job and don't forget the radicals have declared their intentions of a world wide Caliphate. At least one of these groups has been banned in Britain. Take a look at what is happening in Europe and even Australia. Much of what is happening in Europe is not reported here by the MSM.

Islam is the fastest growing religion, if it becomes the majority religion in the west, then we would see parliament change, and laws changed, we would see Sharia law implemented. We do have cause for concern, especially women.

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not about radical Islamism. It is about territory. A significant proportion of Palestinian Arabs are Christian. Get your facts straight.

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Because if routine tasks such as going to work in tall buildings or public transportation are fraught with danger, the amount of resources necessary to preserve safety, and the sense of dread going anywhere, will sap our standard of living and reduce our freedoms.

Sap our standard of living. Exactly my point. This whole paranoia about "destruction" of the west and "it's us or them" nonsense is really exaggeration at best, and completely unsubstantiated fear-mongering at worst.

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Oh, but you did, JBG. Do you remember the King David Hotel? Do you remember the conditions under which the British suddenly pulled out of Palestine?
The Irgun gave the Brits an evacuation warning, and the Brits decided "not to take orders from Jews" or words to that effect. There was hardly the intent to wantonly slaughter innocents. As far as "the conditions under which the British suddenly pulled out of Palestine" it was similar to the conditions they surrendered India and Pakistan; they were flat broke at the end of WW II.
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