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Ramadan Attacks

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Who are ‘they’ you are referring to? Iraqis, Muslims or Islamic Radicals? Each would give a different answer. Please do not confuse these actions as being condoned by the majority of Iraqis.

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Exactly Whistler. So many groups are vying for power that is almost unfathomable. Each has it's own dreams of superiority and none are of the average Iraqi. If sucessful in driving the US out you can be sure of one thing; THE VIOLENCE HAS JUST BEGUN.

This is why the US must win this war.

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The US WILL win this. Only a handful of elements are committing these acts - against it should be said; muslims, secularists, Westerners and NGO's, and not just US targets. In fact it is rather obvious that the terrorists are choosing some easy targets to jolt western opinion and especially the liberal media into calling for a general withdrawal. The greatest task facing the US is to face down the howls of the leftists and their media friends. It will take a minimum 5 years to rebuild this country and in this time expect more of these attacks.

The wild card are of course the Dumbo's and their hopeful but irrelevant cast of leaders. If one of them becomes President i predict, today, that the US will withdraw.

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The wild card are of course the Dumbo's and their hopeful but irrelevant cast of leaders. If one of them becomes President i predict, today, that the US will withdraw.

I can't see that Craig. Too many people are on the side of the US action. More than opposed. However, assuming that the balance shifted and more were against than for and that the Democrats won the next election. If they simply pulled pole and left Iraq on it's own you would even have many Anti War types outraged that they had left Iraq to certain destruction by Militant Islam and Warlords.

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it takes a very dull mind to link the actions of maybe 10 resitance fighters to a religion of 1 billion.

by that logic the liars in the US gov who hyped the WMD lies make all americans liars too.

SirRiff

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it takes a very dull mind to link the actions of maybe 10 resitance fighters to a religion of 1 billion.

by that logic the liars in the US gov who hyped the WMD lies make all americans liars too.

SirRiff

Who linked that Riff? I know I didn't. Closest I came was;

Militant Islam and Warlords.
Emphasis on Militant rather than Islam I should have added to clarify it for your benifit.

Craig said;

Only a handful of elements are committing these acts - against it should be said; muslims, secularists, Westerners and NGO's, and not just US targets

Whistler also made a definite distinction by saying;

Who are ?they? you are referring to? Iraqis, Muslims or Islamic Radicals?

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Who linked that Riff? I know I didn't. Closest I came was;

->

Some religion of peace

topic starter, not you.

SirRiff

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Not too sure how this will play but I believe it significant that these attacks were against Iraqi's and the Red Cross.

The one person captured was a Syrian (or at least carried a Syrian Passport) and I am told that by the Arabic accent, it is rather easy to determine where someone is from. Iraqi cops and civilians are being killed and while some Iraqi's may not care if Americans are killed, I suspect there will be an increase in Iraq's reporting 'outsiders' to the Police

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After the multiple bombings, I read a short quote from an Iraqi Minister of Interior, I think his title was,that has stuck in my mind.

This fellow said that the USA's rules of engagement are too narrow, that the American GI's were too constrained by their superiors to properly deal with terrorists, and that the Iraqis themselves should get more responsibilities for their own country's security and better fire power so they could flush out the 'bad guys" and deal with them in the Arab way. He said they were in a better position to identify a foreign fighter hiding in the ranks of ordinary Iraqis going about their business.

I think he had a point. Bush and his advisors are trying to have their soldiers act like politically correct policemen in Iraq.

Bush needs to let the soldiers fight like regular soldiers at war and use deadly force - forget about taking POW's and he has to arm the vetted Iraqi policemen with fire power today not 2 years from now. Maybe even recall a couple of thousand former Republican Guard soldiers - have them vetted by Iraqis they trust and arm the soldiers, too. Also he should put the search for WMD on hold and emphasize GI's locating and getting rid of munitions caches they find in the Baghdad area.

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I think he had a point. Bush and his advisors are trying to have their soldiers act like politically correct policemen in Iraq.

Absolutely. The military needs to take off the kid gloves and finish the job. However, I trust the Republican Guard about as far as I can through them. WMD intellegence needs to be uncovered as soon as possible in order to vindicate the administration. Thats not to say we neccesarily need to find weapons, but at least information about active weapons programs. That will be satisfactory for the American people.

As for Islam being a "religion of peace". I don't think Nuclear is completly off base. Islam, as it stands now, has serious problems as a whole. While the number of radicals that participate in attacks is relatively small, there exist hunderds of millions of people within that faith who celebrate the attacks on Isreal and United States. From a young age, Islamic children are indoctrinated to hate the Western non-believers. Some of them eventually become radicalized enough to commit acts of barbarism in the name of God. A major problem I have with Islam as a whole is that none of them are willing to denounce the acts of terrorism. And it doesn't qualify if someone, such as Arafat, condemns in English and encourages in Arabic. Its happens all the time. No, there is a systemic problem at the very root of Islam. With that said, the majority of the world's roughly 1.5 billion Muslims are decent, peace loving people.

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Kay's report is very good. It does vindicate the concept that Hussein was engaged in the planning and use of WMD. It will take longer to find the agents than at first suspected. but it will happen. Kay's last report, cites numerous programs in place to produce various WMD. It does not state that a nuclear program was in place.

But hell i don't expect any critics of US foreign policy to actually READ anything.

Too much work. Easier just to yap.

We are still very much in the collection and analysis mode, still seeking the information and evidence that will allow us to confidently draw comprehensive conclusions to the actual objectives, scope, and dimensions of Iraq's WMD activities at the time of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Iraq's WMD programmes spanned more than two decades, involved thousands of people, billions of dollars, and were elaborately shielded by security and deception operations that continued even beyond the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related programme activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations

The very scale of this programme when coupled with the conditions in Iraq that have prevailed since the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom dictate the speed at which we can move to a comprehensive understanding of Iraq's WMD activities.

.....

Any actual WMD weapons or material is likely to be small in relation to the total conventional armaments footprint and difficult to near impossible to identify with normal search procedures. It is important to keep in mind that even the bulkiest materials we are searching for, in the quantities we would expect to find, can be concealed in spaces not much larger than a two car garage.

The environment in Iraq remains far from permissive for our activities, with many Iraqis that we talk to reporting threats and overt acts of intimidation and our own personnel being the subject of threats and attacks. In September alone we have had three attacks on ISG facilities or teams: The ISG base in Irbil was bombed and four staff injured, two very seriously; a two person team had their vehicle blocked by gunmen and only escaped by firing back through their own windshield; and on Wednesday, 24 September, the ISG Headquarters in Baghdad again was subject to mortar attack.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3160270.stm

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A dull mind? Did you see today the explosion that killed two Americans contractors in Iraq? There were civillians dancing on top of the truck's burnt wreckage celebrating. Honestly, all I see from the religion of islam is people blowing themselves up, crashing planes into buildings, hijacking airplanes, and killing anyone who doens't share their beliefs. This is what I see from many different countries with a muslim population. Even those muslims who are not directly hostile celebrate when terrorists commit hideous acts. They raise their children to believe that anyone who doesn't share their beliefs are evil and should be killed. Do you know what it was that the terrorists cheered as they rammed into the sides of the WTC and Pentagon during the 9-11 attacks? The arabic equivalent of 'god is good' I see them as a religion that's sole purpose is to eliminate those who don't share their beliefs...

Granted, Christianity had a phase when they believed this immature and stupid way was the best way to spread their religion....but that was 800 years ago when you bathed in the same water you used for a toilet.

This is the 21st century...in the civilized parts of the world, we believe you should judge people for who they are. I agree with this policy. Why don't they share it?

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As for Islam being a "religion of peace". I don't think Nuclear is completly off base. Islam, as it stands now, has serious problems as a whole. While the number of radicals that participate in attacks is relatively small, there exist hunderds of millions of people within that faith who celebrate the attacks on Isreal and United States.

how does this differ from the insitution of slavery in the US or the internment camps of WWII?

its been what, 200 years since the slaves were free and black men still get arrested more and make less money? if the us hasnt finally cleansed itself of slavery in 200 years how can you expect the poorest nations on earth to act civilized? poverty will cause ignorance and violence completely independantly of religion. if religion isnt there the problems will be over race, or tribes, or culture, or politics. the number of reasons that humans kill each other is endless. but one thing is certain, if you have a healthy family, a house, a job, and a decent life, you are far less likely to want to go to war.

A dull mind? Did you see today the explosion that killed two Americans contractors in Iraq? There were civillians dancing on top of the truck's burnt wreckage celebrating. Honestly, all I see from the religion of islam is people blowing themselves up, crashing planes into buildings, hijacking airplanes, and killing anyone who doens't share their beliefs. This is what I see from many different countries with a muslim population. Even those muslims who are not directly hostile celebrate when terrorists commit hideous acts.

so you saw a terrorist attack, then saw what, a 10 second video clip of a group of people celebrating? so that 10 second clip is what you are basing this on? ALL the terror attcks in israel, saudi arabia, iraq, afganistan, were carried out by what, maybe 200 people? it doesnt take an army to carry out a suicide attack.

and then we have the citizens. lets take iraq. these people have been terrorized by saddam for 30 years i think. saddam sold the world oil, america had no problem dealing with him, rumsfeld even shook his hand and smiled, when iraq fought iran the US even helped him with intelligence on iranian front lines and also chemicals and weapons so he could gas them. how friendly.

so you have these iraqis who unfortunately have been under a world supported dictator, been through numberous wars, then under 12 years of sanctions, then being occupied by american forces. do you really think ANY country would be different?

hell even in the US the most 'advanced' country, when there was a blackout the first thing that happens is riots. right back in the 70s in new york to a few months ago. perfectly normal people will start looting adn killing and raping if the power is out for a few days.

so in truth, when you look at africa they are killing each other, in palestine they are killing each other, in northern ireland they used to kill each other, the civil war they killed each other, and so on and so on. there is no religous theme that is common to all the wars.

there is however desperation, usually by poverty.

why the hell do africa tribes war? becuase they are religous? nope, they are dirt poor and stuck in a violent land.

if north america was founded by muslims escaping persectution in europe, they would have developed just as well as the settlers, they would have been moderate, and isolated adn able to prosper and grow.

if you had grown up in iraq these last 30 years, i doubt you have had any chance to escape teh desperation they feel. and you too would act as desperate as them, however irrational as it may seem to us.

SirRiff

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As for Islam being a "religion of peace". I don't think Nuclear is completly off base. Islam, as it stands now, has serious problems as a whole. While the number of radicals that participate in attacks is relatively small, there exist hunderds of millions of people within that faith who celebrate the attacks on Isreal and United States.

how does this differ from the insitution of slavery in the US or the internment camps of WWII?

its been what, 200 years since the slaves were free and black men still get arrested more and make less money? if the us hasnt finally cleansed itself of slavery in 200 years how can you expect the poorest nations on earth to act civilized? poverty will cause ignorance and violence completely independantly of religion. if religion isnt there the problems will be over race, or tribes, or culture, or politics. the number of reasons that humans kill each other is endless. but one thing is certain, if you have a healthy family, a house, a job, and a decent life, you are far less likely to want to go to war.

A dull mind? Did you see today the explosion that killed two Americans contractors in Iraq? There were civillians dancing on top of the truck's burnt wreckage celebrating. Honestly, all I see from the religion of islam is people blowing themselves up, crashing planes into buildings, hijacking airplanes, and killing anyone who doens't share their beliefs. This is what I see from many different countries with a muslim population. Even those muslims who are not directly hostile celebrate when terrorists commit hideous acts.

so you saw a terrorist attack, then saw what, a 10 second video clip of a group of people celebrating? so that 10 second clip is what you are basing this on? ALL the terror attcks in israel, saudi arabia, iraq, afganistan, were carried out by what, maybe 200 people? it doesnt take an army to carry out a suicide attack.

and then we have the citizens. lets take iraq. these people have been terrorized by saddam for 30 years i think. saddam sold the world oil, america had no problem dealing with him, rumsfeld even shook his hand and smiled, when iraq fought iran the US even helped him with intelligence on iranian front lines and also chemicals and weapons so he could gas them. how friendly.

so you have these iraqis who unfortunately have been under a world supported dictator, been through numberous wars, then under 12 years of sanctions, then being occupied by american forces. do you really think ANY country would be different?

hell even in the US the most 'advanced' country, when there was a blackout the first thing that happens is riots. right back in the 70s in new york to a few months ago. perfectly normal people will start looting adn killing and raping if the power is out for a few days.

so in truth, when you look at africa they are killing each other, in palestine they are killing each other, in northern ireland they used to kill each other, the civil war they killed each other, and so on and so on. there is no religous theme that is common to all the wars.

there is however desperation, usually by poverty.

why the hell do africa tribes war? becuase they are religous? nope, they are dirt poor and stuck in a violent land.

if north america was founded by muslims escaping persectution in europe, they would have developed just as well as the settlers, they would have been moderate, and isolated adn able to prosper and grow.

if you had grown up in iraq these last 30 years, i doubt you have had any chance to escape teh desperation they feel. and you too would act as desperate as them, however irrational as it may seem to us.

SirRiff

Ok, firstly, the camps for the japanese during WW2 were a precautionary measure due to several spies in the country. How do you think Pearl Harbor was pulled off so easily? Japanese-Americans and japanese tourists came here and was able to tour the area before attacking. We did that to prevent security breaches. Thsoe people who were captured were not mistreated. It's better to violate a few people's civil rights than to have another attack like Pearl Harbor where 2400 people were killed in an unprovoked attack.

As for basing my statemetns on a video clip on the news, that's what we all have to do. You may be a millionaire and vacation in baghdad and can witness all this first hand, but me, I watch it on television. It's the only way I can and the only way I'd ever want to learn about the middle east. I have no desire to go anywhere near that place....

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The 2 countries you've talked about as examples of Muslim devotees resorting to violence...I think it's actually secular Arabs who are using violence against the USA and Israel.

Only the Baathist supporters- ie. secular Iraqis- in the Sunni triangle celebrated the recent GI deaths.

The Shiites and Kurds are co-operating by and large with coalition troops.

As for Palestinians celebrating Israeli deaths -they're secular, too. In spite of Arafat sporting the sheet on his head, what with his "conversion" to Islam, Arafat is as representative of the Muslim faith as I am.

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how does this differ from the insitution of slavery in the US or the internment camps of WWII?

I'm not sure what your point is as it relates to radical Islam except to say that all of these represent dark points in world history.

its been what, 200 years since the slaves were free and black men still get arrested more and make less money?

The problems that exists in Black society are cultural, not institutional as many liberals believe. According to the 2000 US Census, married black couples earn on average about 80% of married white couples. That gap is really quite small. However, the census also indicates that 70% of black children are born out of wedlock as compared to 30% of white children. This has implications for several cultural trends that have an overwhelmingly negative effect on that segment of society. Single mothers are many times more likely to live in poverty. This alone brings down the black income statistic dramatically. Just as important is the fact that young black men who grow up without fathers are much more likely to engage in criminal activity. Therefore, because blacks commit a larger proportion of crimes, they account for a larger number of arrests, convictions, and occupied prison cells as a percentage of their population. Although one cannot deny that racism in some form still exists in the US, it is not nearly as widespead as conventionally thought. Institutional racism against minorities is virtually non-existent, in fact it is whites who are often the subject of institutional racism in the form of programs like Affirmative Action. Much of the percieved racism in American society exists only in the minds of minorities who maintain an attitude of victimization. As for the causes of these cultural problems in black society, thats a entirly different subject. However, you can start by taking a look at the role models, images, language, and music in black popular culture. It's effects on young adolecents are no doubt profound.

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Hard to read some of these posts and either not want to cry given the sheer ignorance of the message, or pound into oblivion the writers of such messages.

Slavery was abolished in the West from 1807-1865 BUT it still exists in Africa, the Middle East, Brazil and parts of Asia. It exists in child labor, domestic labor, enforced labor of all stripes, prostitution, and in the raw exchange of human flesh for money.

Slavery has existed as a social and economic institution forever. Blacks sold blacks, Arabs sold whites, Arabs sold Jews, Jews sold Arabs, Whites sold whites, Blacks sold Arabs, Yellow sold Yellow and every culture, race, civilisation until quite recently was based in part on slavery including Assyria, Egypt, Rome, the Ottoman empire, Mali, Feudal Europe, Peter's Russia and Ming China. In fact anywhere where agriculture was predominant you will find serfdom.

So what is your blather about US slavery intending to show ? How about this genius; 500.000 WHITE men died defeating the institution and many thousands more were erstwhile advocates to rip down this destructive and immoral blight that was the engine of the southern economy. Canada was spared slavery because there is no cotton, tobacco or other heavy labor intensive crop in the rocks and forests of the north [not until the cotton gin was invented did slave labor become surplus in the south].

Now blacks live in the freest society on earth and I DON"T see too many of them running back to Africa.

Such comments are the sickness of the Lie-beral mind. I remember reading the same as the Sandinista's murdered the Mosqito Indians in the name of the Communist Revolution, tore apart Jews in Managua and sent fighters to Lebanon. Then sick editorials in the NY Times and Toronto Star lamented 'America's brutal history' as justification for atrocious acts by various regimes across the globe as their people 'were choosing freedom.'

Yeah whatever, whenever a regime maims, kills, oppresses and gases some left wing nitwit trotts out the 'slavery line'.

Grow up.

Just so you know; the Americans stopped slavery, rebuilt the South after the war, and yes have given all people equality under the law and now they are the richest society in the world.

Go travel the US and convince the Blacks to return to Africa.

To equate past wrongs with Terror is such a bloody joke that someone needs to throttle the messenger.

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Every religion has it's fanaticals. The Koran specifically says, "Never kill a soldiar without a shield or spear." Just because a selected few are violent dosen't mean that every one is. There are christain fanaticals blow up abortion clinics dosen't mean that there all fanatics.

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The Koran specifically says, "Never kill a soldiar without a shield or spear."

"Oh you who believe, fight the unbelievers who are near to you." -- Koran 9:125

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The Koran specifically says, "Never kill a soldiar without a shield or spear."

"Oh you who believe, fight the unbelievers who are near to you." -- Koran 9:125

Hold on a second...You mean to tell me that the Koran is riddled with contradictions and inconsitencies that various individuals and groups use to justify their own specific socio-political views? Shocking! Thank goodness Judeo-Christian societies don't base their belief systems on a simliarily flawed pseudohistorical document... Oh. Wait.

Crap. ;)

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Hey! it's not like the Bible contridicts itself! If the ten comandments say, "Thou shalt not kill" then way was there a great flood? I think Golaith got more than a headache from that stone!!!! What about the walls of Jericho when they came tumbling down?? The Bible abdocates violence.

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It does not say "Thou shalt not kill." The original Hebrew uses a different word in that sentence compared to other instances of "kill" in the Old Testament. It does not mean "Thou shalt not kill", it means "Thou shalt do no murder."

Regardless, the Bible is very open to interpretation. The teachings of Christ are often in conflict with the more violent Old Testament teachings. That's why Christians subscribe to the New Covenant.

Anyway, the point is that while the Bible is evasive, it is very difficult to interpret the Koran in a non-violent way. There are some passages whose meaning can be stretched to preach restraint from violence in certain circumstances, but that is about as pacifist as Islam gets.

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