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Who has the right to life?


Melanie_

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The state. No other body can grant rights.

The State has been increasingly not taken responsibility for a child that is physically and mentally handicapped. The right wing want to ensure the pregnancy goes to term and then not have the state responsible for the care of that child afterwards.

Cite?

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Strawman of the very worst sort Riverwind and you know it. Where did I say ANYTHING about the 'right' to life?
You are the one parsing the definition of life. You have claimed that 'life' begins at conception but you do not define what you mean by life. However, given the context of the discussion you seem to be implying that the 'life' that begins at conception is more important than the 'life' that grows on a piece of bread. If that is the case then your are not really stating a scientific fact - you are providing an opinion that is no more valid than the people that say the life starts at birth.
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Strawman of the very worst sort Riverwind and you know it. Where did I say ANYTHING about the 'right' to life?
You are the one parsing the definition of life. You have claimed that 'life' begins at conception but you do not define what you mean by life. However, given the context of the discussion you seem to be implying that the 'life' that begins at conception is more important than the 'life' that grows on a piece of bread. If that is the case then your are not really stating a scientific fact - you are providing an opinion that is no more valid than the people that say the life starts at birth.

So you are saying that biological human life and mould are morally equivelent?

How progressive of you Riverwind!

Bravo!

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So you are saying that biological human life and mould are morally equivelent?
Why should they be different? Biologically speaking humans are no different from any other carbon based lifeform. What you want to do is impose a moral/metaphsyical value on something that happens to have human DNA. There is nothing wrong with making that argument but you have no business claiming it is a argument based on science.
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So you are saying that biological human life and mould are morally equivelent?
Why should they be different? Biologically speaking humans are no different from any other carbon based lifeform. What you want to do is impose a moral/metaphsyical value on something that happens to have human DNA. There is nothing wrong with making that argument but you have no business claiming it is a argument based on science.

Again, show me where I said that please.

I said LIFE begins at fertilization. People having abortions should be aware of this. It is a fact.

Your comparing a fetus to bread mould is morally disngenious.

And human DNA and mould DNA IS quite different.

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So you are saying that biological human life and mould are morally equivelent?
Why should they be different? Biologically speaking humans are no different from any other carbon based lifeform. What you want to do is impose a moral/metaphsyical value on something that happens to have human DNA. There is nothing wrong with making that argument but you have no business claiming it is a argument based on science.

You mean you don't?

What do you eat? Is cannibalism on the same plane as eating a carrot?

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So you are saying that biological human life and mould are morally equivelent?
Why should they be different? Biologically speaking humans are no different from any other carbon based lifeform. What you want to do is impose a moral/metaphsyical value on something that happens to have human DNA. There is nothing wrong with making that argument but you have no business claiming it is a argument based on science.

You mean you don't?

What do you eat? I cannibalism on the same plane as eating a carrot?

It seems to be. Funny how people can make a terrible comparison and fight it to the death eh?

can you say stubborn?

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My point here, which you seem not to be getting, is that you are trying to dictate to me, and all other women, how to use our reproductive equipment. I was trying, with little success, to show what it is like when the shoe is on the other foot.
Society places many restrictions on many parts of your body and what you can do with them. I don't see why the reproductive part of a woman's (or man's) body should necessarily be free of all restrictions or laws.
I started this thread because I felt some conflict between two strong values I hold. I support the right of a woman to choose to continue a pregnany or not. However, I also see people with disabilities as equal in value to anyone else, and this move by the OB/GYNs smacks of elimination of a segment of society. I can accept that it provides more information to base a choice on, as long as that choice can be freely made by the individual, without undue pressure from either side.
Two people choose in part their children when they choose a mate. It is nonsense to say that we don't choose. How many children could any of us had and yet never did? Is it fair to say these potential children were "eliminated"?

It is pointless (and fundamentally wrong) to say that life starts at a certain moment. Any choice is purely arbitrary.

In the same sense, it is just as absurd to say that our civilized society does not condone killing. Our soldiers and police kill and our hospitals and transport ministries make decisions that result in death. We live in a world where millions die every year because we don't give them the resources to live.

It is hypocritical and narrow-minded to claim that abortion is immoral because it is murder.

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Sorry, not sure where you got:

"The right wing want to ensure the pregnancy goes to term and then not have the state responsible for the care of that child afterwards."

from that document.

ie: keep digging.

:)

Obviously you haven't read it. It indicates how many supports for families to raise their children have been cut thereby placing many children into poverty.

Anti-abortion right wingers in South Dakota, for example, continue to cut and make child poverty in that state one of the highest in the U.S. The poorest county in the U.S. is in South Dakota. And yet they want to protect children in utero, keep birth control out of people's hands and wash their hands of the child after birth.

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What do you eat? Is cannibalism on the same plane as eating a carrot?
Of course not. But when I say why I don't try to pretend it is science.

I am claiming that human biological life begins at conception and you seem to disagree?

THAT is science. Plain and simple.

Do I feel abortion should be 100% outlawed? No.

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Obviously you haven't read it. It indicates how many supports for families to raise their children have been cut thereby placing many children into poverty.

Anti-abortion right wingers in South Dakota, for example, continue to cut and make child poverty in that state one of the highest in the U.S. The poorest county in the U.S. is in South Dakota. And yet they want to protect children in utero, keep birth control our of people's hands and wash their hands of the child after birth.

I DID read it in fact.

Russia has the highest abortion rate in the developed world. Would you say child services in Russia are superior to South Dakota? Again, your partisanship is getting in the way of you having an intelligent conversation.

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I am claiming that human biological life begins at conception and you seem to disagree? THAT is science. Plain and simple.
No it is not because the term 'human' is a value judgement not a scientific term. When I cut my hair I am killing 'human' life according to your definition because any cell which has human DNA must be human.
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I am claiming that human biological life begins at conception and you seem to disagree? THAT is science. Plain and simple.
No it is not because the term 'human' is a value judgement not a scientific term. When I cut my hair I am killing 'human' life according to your definition because any cell which has human DNA must be human.

Oh man, if I had a shovel I'd give it to you.

Would 'homo sapien' be preferable to your sensitivities?

BTW, your hair is DEAD and unable to produce a human being.

Anything else?

;)

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I DID read it in fact.

Russia has the highest abortion rate in the developed world. Would you say child services in Russia are superior to South Dakota? Again, your partisanship is getting in the way of you having an intelligent conversation.

I regard Russia as a country that has basically cuts it citizens off from almost every basic social service there is. The lifespan of Russians is falling fast. Abortion is high because regular birth control is inconsistently available or too expensive.

If the right wing believes life is precious, they should be doing a lot more than cutting programs that relieve child poverty. Your partisanship fails to recognize that.

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If the right wing believes life is precious, they should be doing a lot more than cutting programs that relieve child poverty. Your partisanship fails to recognize that.

Perhaps the 'right wing' believes the 'state' should provide 'enablement' and not replace the role of parenting?

Sometimes caring is not DOING it is enabling.

just a thought.

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Perhaps the 'right wing' believes the 'state' should provide 'enablement' and not replace the role of parenting?

Sometimes caring is not DOING it is enabling.

just a thought.

Cite for the right wing's enablement project and how it has reduced child poverty?

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BTW, your hair is DEAD and unable to produce a human being.
A mass of cells cannot produce a human either - yet you claim it is human. A fetus is biologically human tissue but you cannot use science to claim that it is a separate human entity that is biologically distinct from the human body that created it. Claiming that life begins a conception is an opinion - not a scientific fact.
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A mass of cells cannot produce a human either - yet you claim it is human. A fetus is biologically human tissue but you cannot use science to claim that it is a separate human entity that is biologically distinct from the human body that created it. Claiming that life begins a conception is an opinion - not a scientific fact.

Whether you regard it as human or not, it is the only thing that can become a human and if it is left alone it will inevitably become one. We were all a fetus at one time. A wart cannot become a human. A carbuncle cannot become a human. a Zit cannot become a human. Only a fetus, which after all is an unborn human. There is the dilemma.

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Whether you regard it as human or not, it is the only thing that can become a human and if it is left alone it will inevitably become one.
Only if the mother that created it continues to live. There is a line somewhere between 6 and 9 months where a fetus could be seperated from its mother without immediately becoming a mass of dead tissue. At that time you could argue that it has all of the biological pieces in place to be called a biologically independent entity with human DNA. That could make it 'human'. OTH, that is my opinion and has no more scientific merit than the opinion that human life begins at conception.
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