Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Leafless

3,500 City of Ottawa Jobs to be bilingual

Recommended Posts

Whether Québec seperates from Canada or not will have little or no effect on Alberta in terms of language policies. Alberta already has only English as an official language provincially, so the only real advantage of being fluent in French is for those who think they may end up moving East, working for the feds or for certain companies who make use of that skill. However, learning French in school is still a better investment of one's time than learning a foreign language in school, even in Alberta, considering French is not a difficult language to learn compared to many other languages spoken by a large proportion of the world's population (not necessarily as a first language) and is the only language used in a very sizeable part of Canada. Even Albertans get free language training in school, meaning those who chose to not learn it should not complain about the oportunities that are taken from them.

French is a waste of time and energy. If my kids want an upper hand by way of languages, their first choice should be Spanish as it is the second most prevalent language in the US. Second to that would be Chinese as this will be the second language of commerce worldwide. THE FRENCH LANGUAGE IS DEAD with the exception of France and Little-Almost-France (Kwebek). Spending my tax dollars for kids to learn a useless language just so the government can appease a miniscule portion of a country amounts to theft. It's importance ranks right up there with fountains in Shawinigate. If I was (I am!) forced to pay for a "second official language" in Canada, it might as well be Newfanese. At least then people in this province could communicate in a much easier manner.

Just because you are pro-French (the bastardized Canadian version that it is), what gives you the right to jam that same dead language down all taxpayer's throats? So you have had a good experience being billingual, great. Why don't we make it mandatory that all school children learn how to use sign language? That is a skill. How about all federal employees must learn how to use sign language? What if all federal employees serving an area of Canada where there are deaf people lost their jobs if they couldn't sign? Would you still be okay with federal language policies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I wonder how the federal government will ever retrieve billions of illegally paid tax payers dollars, over the years and respond to the injustices concerning thousands of English speaking Canadians who were denied employment (and many who lost their employment with the federal government), with the federal government because of improperly implemented discriminatory and racist federal 'official bilingualism'.

Injustices? I think it's just to expect federal government employees to be bilingual... the "Official Languages of Canada" law is silly. The federal government should be free to require whichever language skills they wish, provided they provide language training in public schools (which they do).

Refusing someone a job because they did not have the requested skills (including language skills) for the job is not discrimination. Anyone is capable of gaining a language, just like everyone is capable of learning to use software or operating a machine, however language requires too much time to be considered a skill that one could easily pick up "on the job", so it makes sense that they require it for the hiring process.

Racism? No! Anyone of any race, culture or background can learn the necessary skills to find employment in the field and location they wish, making everyone equal. The "unfairness", for instance, is that people born lucky, like me, do not have to work as hard to gain such skills, just like kids raised by mathematicians will have more ease in mathematics because they have more access to assistance in that field. Again, I'm against fairness because that results in communism and eliminates diversity when everyone is considered equal regardless of skills (which also eliminates the desire to learn).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I wonder how the federal government will ever retrieve billions of illegally paid tax payers dollars, over the years and respond to the injustices concerning thousands of English speaking Canadians who were denied employment (and many who lost their employment with the federal government), with the federal government because of improperly implemented discriminatory and racist federal 'official bilingualism'.

Injustices? I think it's just to expect federal government employees to be bilingual... the "Official Languages of Canada" law is silly. The federal government should be free to require whichever language skills they wish, provided they provide language training in public schools (which they do).

Without the 'Official Languages Act, their would be no 'official bilingualism within the federal government and Francophone's would be dealt with in English or federal offices from within Quebec.

You know as well as I concerning bilingual positions in the federal government, do not simply provide services to Francophone's, but providing a functional Francophone working class society within the confines of the federal public service.

Where else in society would you get this discriminatory, racist, linguistic handling of a minority language outside of the federal government?

http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/faq.asp?Lang=English#q1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I wonder how the federal government will ever retrieve billions of illegally paid tax payers dollars, over the years and respond to the injustices concerning thousands of English speaking Canadians who were denied employment (and many who lost their employment with the federal government), with the federal government because of improperly implemented discriminatory and racist federal 'official bilingualism'.

Injustices? I think it's just to expect federal government employees to be bilingual... the "Official Languages of Canada" law is silly. The federal government should be free to require whichever language skills they wish, provided they provide language training in public schools (which they do).

Without the 'Official Languages Act, their would be no 'official bilingualism within the federal government and Francophone's would be dealt with in English or federal offices from within Quebec.

You know as well as I concerning bilingual positions in the federal government, do not simply provide services to Francophone's, but providing a functional Francophone working class society within the confines of the federal public service.

Where else in society would you get this discriminatory, racist, linguistic handling of a minority language outside of the federal government?

http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/faq.asp?Lang=English#q1

Firstly, I said the language act was silly and in my opinion should be revised, so that they could require bilingualism without their own act being an issue.

Providing a functional Francophone working class society within the confines of the federal public service? You seem to insist that one's language is part of one's identity. These are Canadians working within the Federal Government, and I don't care what their first language is, provided that they know both. As long as there are more francophones than anglophones willing to learn a second language, there will be skewed demographics.

Seriously though, this is not racism. Anyone can learn a second language, and by suggesting that just because English is the dominant language in Canada and that you should not have to know both yet have access to the same opportunities as those who know both languages discusts me... Learning a second language has not hurt anyone! Outside the federal government, the private sector has developped a certain thirst for bilingual candidates. Not to the same extent as the feds, but bilingual candidates have more opportunities even in the Canadian private sector. I don't see Canada's unemployment rate increasing because of this, so there is no apparent problem. Monolingual Canadians are still able to find employment.

Anyway, if the municipal government in Ottawa requires bilingualism for more municipal jobs, that is fine as it is a bilingual municipality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Firstly, I said the language act was silly and in my opinion should be revised, so that they could require bilingualism without their own act being an issue.

And again I suggest if the federal government ever tried to accommodate French within the federal public service without the excuse French is an official language, then there would be an outcry from other minority languages demanding the same bilingual status applied to their language, as Canada is an official multicultural country. Regardless, in all probability the federal government would use no other language than the majority commercial language English in the absence of official languages.

Providing a functional Francophone working class society within the confines of the federal public service? You seem to insist that one's language is part of one's identity.

Yes, certainly.

Quebecers have been complaining since day one for official recognition of their French language and culture and cries to recognize Quebec as a nation.

Seriously though, this is not racism. Anyone can learn a second language, and by suggesting that just because English is the dominant language in Canada and that you should not have to know both yet have access to the same opportunities as those who know both languages discusts me... Learning a second language has not hurt anyone! Outside the federal government, the private sector has developped a certain thirst for bilingual candidates. Not to the same extent as the feds, but bilingual candidates have more opportunities even in the Canadian private sector. I don't see Canada's unemployment rate increasing because of this, so there is no apparent problem. Monolingual Canadians are still able to find employment.

This is racism.

We are talking about a federal government 'official bilingualism policy that 'DIVIDES' on the bases of culture-'a component of race'.

Learning a second language does not hurt anyone is correct. But if the requirement does not exist outside for instance of the discriminating federal government 'official bilingualism' then quite simply there is NO INITIATIVE to learn a second language, period. Most people would rather do other things.

The private sector does provide bilingual services in cities like Ottawa where the city has a bilingual policy and the private sector caters to this. But then again there are fewer English jobs available because of this and English speakers suffer because of this , in their own majority English speaking city---unbelievable.

Anyway, if the municipal government in Ottawa requires bilingualism for more municipal jobs, that is fine as it is a bilingual municipality.

No it's not, Ottawa's bilingual policy is just as discriminating and racist as the the federal one due to the fact fundamental collective rights of Ottawa taxpayers were ignored by city council who passed this bilingualism policy without the consent of city of Ottawa taxpayers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And again I suggest if the federal government ever tried to accommodate French within the federal public service without the excuse French is an official language, then there would be an outcry from other minority languages demanding the same bilingual status applied to their language, as Canada is an official multicultural country. Regardless, in all probability the federal government would use no other language than the majority commercial language English in the absence of official languages.

Since when must multiculturalism be officially recognised? Can a country be unofficially multicultural? English is already the only commercial language in Canada... companies in Québec are doing their accountancy in English, even if no one other than the accountant in the given company knows English. Yeah, the absence of official languages would have worked had Britain never given Québec an official language other than French. Since then the francophones of Québec have been advocating their language rights. Also, there would be no such outcry... there is no longer a significant proportion of the Canadian population who have been here for several generations speaking an unofficial language and the sizeable communities in Canada speaking foreign languages at home have most likely known immigration within the last three generations, where the family knew that they were moving to a country having other official languages than their own, therefore they would not advocate official recognition of their language.

Yes, certainly.

Quebecers have been complaining since day one for official recognition of their French language and culture and cries to recognize Quebec as a nation.

Since day one? On day one Québec was one of the first provinces to join Canada, and the first people to consider themselves Canadian. Seperation is a fairly young issue, even proportionally speaking of Canadian history.

Again, one third of Canadians whose first language is French live outside of Québec. By your stupid logic, Francophone=Québecois=Seperatist. That's like saying 100%*(2/3)*49%=100%, which actually comes out to a little less than 33%. I don't even see why seperatists would advocate bilingualism within the Federal Government, because they actually want to be their own nation, not caring about policies affecting other provinces.

This is racism.

We are talking about a federal government 'official bilingualism policy that 'DIVIDES' on the bases of culture-'a component of race'.

Learning a second language does not hurt anyone is correct. But if the requirement does not exist outside for instance of the discriminating federal government 'official bilingualism' then quite simply there is NO INITIATIVE to learn a second language, period. Most people would rather do other things.

The private sector does provide bilingual services in cities like Ottawa where the city has a bilingual policy and the private sector caters to this. But then again there are fewer English jobs available because of this and English speakers suffer because of this , in their own majority English speaking city---unbelievable.

Culture and race are not components of eachother. Race and culture have a Many to Many relation. A culture may be celebrated by people of many races, and a race may celebrate many cultures. Language is a skill, and is usually spoken by people of a common culture/nationality. Also, French and English speaking Canadians, for the most part, both originate from the same continent, Europe... both groups being predominantly cuacasian... the same race.

Official bilingualism does not divide anyone. It means people of any background knowing both official languages can apply for government jobs. You seem to hold anger towards people of a given location - Québec - and that is racism.

No initiative in learning a second language? I beg to differ! Actually, I am for mandatory language training in primary schools, whether domestic or foreign languages. Those knowing more than one language before attaining puberty become faster learners and more skillful in mathematics than their monolingual collegues. Because English and French are official in Canada, we might as well teach the official languages before moving onto other languages. Kids learning both languages at a young age will find that they learn things faster and will then have more time for other things later on, so it's a win-win situation.

The private sector wants to make money (unlike the gov't who just enjoys stealing it through taxation), and if offering services in both languages in Ottawa increases their income, they'll do it. Maybe monolingual anglophone Ottawans will see the profitability in learning the French language. Besides, the private sector is not costing you your precious tax dollars. Also, Ottawa offers the anglophone everything they need to immerse in the French language right in their own city, making it incredibly convenient to achieve bilingualism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since when must multiculturalism be officially recognised? Can a country be unofficially multicultural? English is already the only commercial language in Canada
It doesn't, Canada has always been multicultural prior to 'Charter of rights and Freedoms'.

The reason we have official multiculturalism stems from a royal commission on bilingualism and biculturalism as a response to LINGUISTIC GREVENCES from Quebec.

But official biculturalism did not satisfy realistic cultural demands from the Western provinces, so official multiculturalism was adopted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Culture and race are not components of each other. Race and culture have a Many to Many relation. A culture may be celebrated by people of many races, and a race may celebrate many cultures. Language is a skill, and is usually spoken by people of a common culture/nationality. Also, French and English speaking Canadians, for the most part, both originate from the same continent, Europe... both groups being predominantly cuacasian... the same race.

Why don't you try looking up the definition of race?

In my Concise Oxford dictionary, race= item#2, a tribe, nation, etc., Item#5, a group of persons, animals, or plants connected by common descent. #8, a class of persons etc., with some common feature.

The emphasis concerning race, is not only on colour.

Official bilingualism does not divide anyone. It means people of any background knowing both official languages can apply for government jobs. You seem to hold anger towards people of a given location - Québec - and that is racism.

Bilingualism does not divide anyone.

But 'official bilingualism' does when it is sponsored by the government of the land, in this official multicultural society, that is supposed to represent ALL CANADIANS and not discriminate and divide on the basis of language and make it policy.

The 'collective will of the citizens of Canada' was totally ignored by this 'federal official bilingualism policy'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, firstly about the definition of race...

I did look it up, and according to your findings, item #8 says some common feature, including color, meaning the European founders of Canada were of the same race.

Anyway, here are my findings from the WordWebPro Interactive English Language Dictionary, released by Princeton University. Item #2 is "People who are believed to belong to the same genetic stock", item #5 "(biology) a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species". I guess only item #2 from my findings is relevant to this discussion, but I don't have any bigger English language dictionary around me.

People of different languages do not form different races. This is completely irrelevant, because Canadians of both languages have equal chances at obtaining a job requiring bilingualism provided that they both be bilingual, therefore there is no discrimination whatsoever.

Bilingualism does not divide anyone.

But 'official bilingualism' does when it is sponsored by the government of the land, in this official multicultural society, that is supposed to represent ALL CANADIANS and not discriminate and divide on the basis of language and make it policy.

The 'collective will of the citizens of Canada' was totally ignored by this 'federal official bilingualism policy'.

You've first mentionned this:

But official biculturalism did not satisfy realistic cultural demands from the Western provinces, so official multiculturalism was adopted.

In other words, you say Canada called itself a "multicultural country" because this label sounded more pleasing to the Westerners than a "bicultural country". Should Canada then adopt more official languages and require them in the workplace? No other language has ever been official to Canada than the current ones, so it would be pointless to advocate their use in the workplace in Canada.

Actually, I have met many anglophones who may not speak fluent French but still think it is neat that we have two official languages, so you are very quick to determine the "collective will of Canadians"... not all monolingual anglophones are upset by the bilingual policies.

I'll agree that Canada should not discriminate on the basis of language, but employers can discriminate based on the candidates' skills. In fact, Canadians should not even be identified by their first language, so people should be treated according to the same justice regardless of their first language, however it is fine that an employer requires language skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People of different languages do not form different races. This is completely irrelevant, because Canadians of both languages have equal chances at obtaining a job requiring bilingualism provided that they both be bilingual, therefore there is no discrimination whatsoever.

This is an outright LIE.

You must be an idiot.

There is no demand for bilingualism in Canada outside of the artificial discriminatory federal one.

Quebec has no use for English or developing a bilingualism policy.

Your just pissed off because the French language in Canada could NEVER create a demand for its language without FORCED discriminatory federal government intervention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People of different languages do not form different races. This is completely irrelevant, because Canadians of both languages have equal chances at obtaining a job requiring bilingualism provided that they both be bilingual, therefore there is no discrimination whatsoever.
This is an outright LIE.

What is a lie here?

You must be an idiot.

There is no demand for bilingualism in Canada outside of the artificial discriminatory federal one.

Yes there is, maybe you do not want to see it. Grabted it is small but it is there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In other words, you say Canada called itself a "multicultural country" because this label sounded more pleasing to the Westerners than a "bicultural country".

Not pleasing but simply reflects OTHER culture in Western country as being part of the country.

Should Canada then adopt more official languages and require them in the workplace?

Then you would have a total dysfunctional country, not that the government is not currently linguistically impaired with the present 'official languages'.

No other language has ever been official to Canada than the current ones, so it would be pointless to advocate their use in the workplace in Canada.

This is why 'official languages' are so discriminatory in an 'official multicultural' country.

Just simply forget 'official languages' period, because the only purpose it serves is to place an artificial importance on French, a non-commercial language.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People of different languages do not form different races. This is completely irrelevant, because Canadians of both languages have equal chances at obtaining a job requiring bilingualism provided that they both be bilingual, therefore there is no discrimination whatsoever.

This is an outright LIE.

You must be an idiot.

There is no demand for bilingualism in Canada outside of the artificial discriminatory federal one.

Quebec has no use for English or developing a bilingualism policy.

Your just pissed off because the French language in Canada could NEVER create a demand for its language without FORCED discriminatory federal government intervention.

I'll have to agree with Guyser's response for the most part.

Ok, someone is shooting insults into the interweb... real smart. That is not a lie, it is the reality. If I am an employer and require certain skills for a job, I don't care if the applicant is black, white, hispanic, asian, francophone, anglophone or whoever, provided the applicant has the skills for the job. If I require language skills, I will consider black, white, hispanic, asian, anglophone, francophone, etc. applicants who have those language skills. I do not see why you do not grasp this. People of any background can know both domestic languages. If you disagree to that, you are being racist for believing that some people should/could not be bilingual.

No currently monolingual provincial government has any use for developing a bilingual policy. New Brunswick may be interested in develeping their bilingual policy, and Ontario is "considering" becoming officially bilingual (or that would be not properly worded according to you... so "officially of two languages" if that suits you better), but we have yet to see if that gets anywhere. I don't actually care about Ontarian bilingual policies, I think it's fine the way they manage unofficial language quotas. I suppose it would be cool if Canada's most populated province officially had both languages, but there's no hurry for that to happen.

Lastly in responding to your first post since I last posted, I'm not pissed off... if anything you are, because you seem to be losing it (wow, this forum is consuming your emotions, I do feel sorry for you, and I appologize if this discussion causes you to lose any of the hairs on your head, provided you still have hair). People also create the demand for the French language (not just the government)... because if only the government wanted this, it would never pass because Canada is a democratic country. I have worked in many places in Ottawa and I have often heard people agreeing to speak to eachother in French in the workplace. People who speak French as a first language, even outside of Québec (and yes there are many... Ottawa has tonnes of them) often prefer to consume in French, meaning shops can increase their earnings if their staff are bilingual, that is why the private sector thirsts for bilingual candidates... because there exists a natural demand. If you mean that the language policy is discriminatory because it means there is an extra skill employers are using to determine which candidates are qualified, then I will agree. If I am to hire a truck driver, I will quickly refuse blind candidates. If I want to hire a police man in Ottawa, I will much prefer a bilingual one, because Canadians including you have the right to do their legal processes in their prefered domestic language, so just as much as you have language rights in Canada, so do the criminals, and I would prefer a cop who could deal with the criminal in whichever domestic language the criminal speaks. Ok, maybe not all jobs requiring bilingualism actually make use of the language skills of those working those jobs, however it's still nice that people representing Canada can communicate with all Canadians. It would be disappointing if you were to make a call that was connected to a federal government building in Québec where the federal government employee could not serve you in English. In my opinion, there should be as few government employees as possible, that they all be bilingual and that all the rest of the work be outsourced to companies having their own language policies, requiring bilingualism according to the natural demand (which by the way exists). That way no efficiency is lossed and everyone representing the federal government would be fluent in both domestic languages. This is completely feasible.

Anyway, to point out your absurdity, you agreed that the private sector has increased its thirst for bilingual candidates, which in your opinion is a loss in jobs for the anglophones (which can only reflect the natural demand because unlike the government, the private sector's priority is to make money and they will only prefer bilingual candidates if it means they can increase revenue. This means it's a reflection of a natural demand for bilingualism) yet you say that outside the federal government language policy, there would be no natural demand for the French language. Plus you dare call me an idiot. Wow, I am indeed astonished.

Also, I will comment on your most recent post:

Not pleasing but simply reflects OTHER culture in Western country as being part of the country.

I gather you think francophones are of one culture and that anglophones are of many cultures. This makes no sense at all. There are people of various backgrounds using either language in Canada. I don't even know why this is even mentioned in the first place, because I never said Canada only had two cultures. Seriously, for instance Switzerland has a significant Portuguese speaking community, but they won't make Portuguese an official language. I believe there are more people who speak Portuguese in Switzerland than Romansh, their fourth official language, yet they do not change their official languages nor do they abolish them. Canada recognizes all its cultures, and agreed to use two languages.

This is why 'official languages' are so discriminatory in an 'official multicultural' country.

Just simply forget 'official languages' period, because the only purpose it serves is to place an artificial importance on French, a non-commercial language.

You would not know French as a commercial language in Canada because you would never write a company in French. If a Canadian decides to write a company in French, they will most likely receive an answer in French, meaning a customer service relationship would be handled in French and therefore French would be used for commerce. Such service is not nearly as common for foreign languages (normally only within minority communities). Sure English is the dominant language, meaning you will not see much being done in French unless you actually speak French or you look for it. Pretty much all sectors in Ottawa are requiring bilingualism to a certain extent other than IT, so it is still used commercially, especially if a company's headquarters are in Montréal or Québec City. As mentioned earlier, the importance of the French language in Canada is not nearly as artificial as you are puting it out to be.

How are official languages discriminatory in a multicultural country? Germany is multicultural, but if they don't have an official language, the Turk population could easily run their own public schools in their own language, so could the Russians and so forth and so on. Official languages make it easier for people to agree on up to a few languages, and being able to do everything everywhere in their own country provided they speak all official languages (covering all regions within their borders). I would be for having no official languages, had Canada never had official languages. Since we've made it an issue, it won't so easily go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That is because you apparently place a higher value on a manager's ability to speak both languages than on his ability to - manage. That is understandable given you appear to be a Francophone. However, we English have this anal retentive fixation on efficiency which continues to survive despite all efforts to squelch it. Fairness too.

I'm for justice yet against fairness.

No, it sounds like you are for bilingualism and nothing else really matters.

If the manager does not have the required management skills nor the capacity of learning them, they should not be a manager. Just because I am prefered on the job market for skills I have worked towards (yes, I had to study English and French in school, meaning I had to learn my grammar) does not mean I'm trying to squelch efficiency.

Let me put it this way. I don't know what you do for a living. But suppose I told you tomorrow that you have to train your replacement. He speaks Swedish, and from now on that is a requirement for your job, so you're out. The fact that Swedish is of little or no value is beside the point.

You think you are skilled because you know both languages? Both languages can be an important skill, depending on the job. However, in most government jobs it is of little or no importance.

It seems that you are convinced that bilingual people have no skills beyond languages.

No. What I'm saying is that when you rule out 95% of potential candidates for a job based on something which is immaterial to the actual job at hand, then you wind up with less qualified people.

Not possible. Antipathy towards these kinds of policies would require any government to immediately remove most bilingualism requirements - or the people would remove that government.

According to our current system, no political party is interested in abolishing language policies...

Yeah, get rid of 7 million French voters and see how quick that changes.

I don't suppose it has occured to you that there is a higher percentage of Anglos living in Gatineau than Francophones in Ottawa?

I'm not so sure about that one... a lot of them are bilingual though.

So are most of the French in Ottawa. What's your point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
These are Canadians working within the Federal Government, and I don't care what their first language is, provided that they know both. As long as there are more francophones than anglophones willing to learn a second language, there will be skewed demographics.

There are NOT more Francophones willing to learn a second language. There are very obvious, very basic sociological reasons why Francophones are more bilingual than Anglophones. It has nothing to do with willingness to learn. Almost all bilingual Francophones picked up English very young, because they live in an English milieu, with English TV, English movies, an English internet, English rock music, etc. etc. Anglophone youths don't grow up in a French milieu, except in Quebec - where, of course, they are the most bilingual group in Canada.

In addition, English is a bastard language made up of others, put together by its users, adopting and adapting and growing towards the most efficient, effective communication of ideas. French is an academic's language that even few Francophones really know how to use well. It is extremely complex compared to English, and very hard, very time consuming, and very expensive to learn as an adult, especially to learn it well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I am an employer and require certain skills for a job, I don't care if the applicant is black, white, hispanic, asian, francophone, anglophone or whoever, provided the applicant has the skills for the job.

But if you want a Francophone, then you will require bilingualism, even though bilingualism is neither necessary or even helpful to the job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't actually care about Ontarian bilingual policies, I think it's fine the way they manage unofficial language quotas. I suppose it would be cool if Canada's most populated province officially had both languages, but there's no hurry for that to happen.

This is exactly the ungrateful attitude of Francophone's that make this country a lousy place to live.

If it wasn't for Ottawa, Ontario's bilingual policy, initially inspired by a Liberal friendly mayor and the federal Liberal government providing the discriminatory initiative for this to happen, there would be absolutely no official criteria, or any kind of natural initiative for a demand for the French language to develop on its own in Ottawa.

And don't worry, you will never see Ontario become 'officially bilingual if the premier of the province intends to hold his or her position for any length of time. If it did happen would be the recipe for an upheaval.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But suppose I told you tomorrow that you have to train your replacement. He speaks Swedish, and from now on that is a requirement for your job, so you're out. The fact that Swedish is of little or no value is beside the point.

Actually , that would BE the point.

And that employer would be looking down the Employment Standards inspection shotgun in a matter of days. In other words, not gonna happen.

No. What I'm saying is that when you rule out 95% of potential candidates for a job based on something which is immaterial to the actual job at hand, then you wind up with less qualified people.

Pulled that one out of thin air huh? If not....then 95% of the people applying are morons. Anyone who has a brain knows the language skill is needed, if not demanded . Look in the paper, there are lots of jobs that demand things not necessarily needed to be a successful employee.

Yeah, get rid of 7 million French voters and see how quick that changes.

Cant lose any of my brothers now. 7 million enriching Canadians as I see it. Great culture, great food , quarts at bars , lousy drivers. Whats not to love?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In addition, English is a bastard language made up of others, put together by its users, adopting and adapting and growing towards the most efficient, effective communication of ideas. French is an academic's language that even few Francophones really know how to use well. It is extremely complex compared to English, and very hard, very time consuming, and very expensive to learn as an adult, especially to learn it well.

Actually, if we are to discuss linguistics, it's probably easier to pick up a working ability in the English language than the French language, but for fluency, I'd say French would come quicker. French may have more rules, but English has more exceptions. Many anglophones do not properly speak nor write in their first language, likewise for francophones. It would be time consuming for an adult to learn any new language from scratch, however time well spent if it means a career advancement.

Almost all bilingual Francophones picked up English very young, because they live in an English milieu, with English TV, English movies, an English internet, English rock music, etc. etc. Anglophone youths don't grow up in a French milieu, except in Quebec - where, of course, they are the most bilingual group in Canada.

This is a practical advantage, however just because English is more accessible in this continent does not make it easier to learn. Music is played in the English language worldwide, yet so many people from non-English speaking countries could not carry out a conversation in English, despite their American CD collection. The Internet is available in all languages... I'll admit that there is much more information available in English online, but going by Wikipedia's article count, though French does not have the highest count, the count is still pretty high, meaning one could probably still do all their web surfing whithout needing English.

Anglophones in Québec are the most bilingual group of Canadians? Can you quote a source? Last I heard there are approx. million anglophones in Québec, and approx. million francophones in Ontario. I'd figure that there would be a higher rate of bilingual franco-Ontarians than anglo-québécois. I could be wrong, but it would be neat if you could find a source to back that statement.

No, it sounds like you are for bilingualism and nothing else really matters.

I'm for effeciency through privatization. This thread is one big debate about bilingualism. I could rant about all the things that matter to me, but they would be irrelevant to this thread.

Let me put it this way. I don't know what you do for a living. But suppose I told you tomorrow that you have to train your replacement. He speaks Swedish, and from now on that is a requirement for your job, so you're out. The fact that Swedish is of little or no value is beside the point.

You think you are skilled because you know both languages? Both languages can be an important skill, depending on the job. However, in most government jobs it is of little or no importance.

Actually, I have more skills than fluency in both domestic languages. I'd send you my résumé but that would make me no longer anonymous. I can work efficiently in three office suites and I'm pretty good in HTML for instance. I do consider myself skilled, but based on many, not all being language-related.

Ok, if Swedish was actually needed for the job, I'd understand. Swedish is a random example, whereas French has a gradual growing importance in Canadian workplaces. However Swedish comes out of no where. Anyone losing their job because it suddenly requires bilingualism will sure become spiteful, but it's not like they wouldn't see it coming. Normally one can predict such a change, having enough time to learn French before it's actually required.

Government jobs that do not make use of language skills should be outsourced. Those representing the government themselves should be bilingual. Whichever companies they pay to do work for them can have their own language policies.

If I may add, if that scenario were my case, I'd hopefully see it coming and learn Swedish before it would be required for the job. It's likely to be the easiest Germanic language, so if I needed it, I'd give it a try. Sure you could argue "Oh, not everyone is like you and willing to learn a foreign language just to keep their job", but it's a matter of opportunity cost, whether the job is worth the effort of learning a new language. I wouldn't learn a language to keep a job at a fast food joint, but if it were a job I enjoyed and it offered all the perks I really wanted to keep, I'd learn the newly required language. Plus all Canadians with few exceptions are required to learn both domestic langauges in school, so it would not exactly be starting from scratch for most cases, but rather building on however much they already know.

No. What I'm saying is that when you rule out 95% of potential candidates for a job based on something which is immaterial to the actual job at hand, then you wind up with less qualified people.

Sure, but such jobs should be outsourced. If the government believes that a certain position is worthy of being staffed by a government employee and not outsourced, they should feel free to require language skills. If the private sector insists candidates be bilingual, it's because they see a profitable advantage.

Yeah, get rid of 7 million French voters and see how quick that changes.

Last I heard it was more like 9 million, but regardless... Politicians are trying to please as many voters as possible, so they'll obviously be interested in keeping the language policies. Also, regardless of the voters, there are enough francophones in parliament who would not change the language policy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I am an employer and require certain skills for a job, I don't care if the applicant is black, white, hispanic, asian, francophone, anglophone or whoever, provided the applicant has the skills for the job.

But if you want a Francophone, then you will require bilingualism, even though bilingualism is neither necessary or even helpful to the job.

Since when? It wouldn't stop bilingual anglophones from getting the job. Besides, why would I prefer a candidate of a given first language over another purely based on that reason? Either way, a majority of employers are anglophones, so even if francophones prefer to employ francophones, this would affect such a small margin of employment requiring both languages, whether public or private sector.

This is exactly the ungrateful attitude of Francophone's that make this country a lousy place to live.

If it wasn't for Ottawa, Ontario's bilingual policy, initially inspired by a Liberal friendly mayor and the federal Liberal government providing the discriminatory initiative for this to happen, there would be absolutely no official criteria, or any kind of natural initiative for a demand for the French language to develop on its own in Ottawa.

And don't worry, you will never see Ontario become 'officially bilingual if the premier of the province intends to hold his or her position for any length of time. If it did happen would be the recipe for an upheaval.

If it's so lousy, nothing's forcing you to stay.

Ontario's bilingual policy is by quotas. Ontario does not have French as an official language, yet they still serve Ontarians in French where the demand exists. This has nothing to do with the supposive "artificial demand" established by the federal government.

I'm not worried, by the way (where do you get these ideas about how I might feel?), though I appreciate the concern. I already know both domestic languages, so if Ontario becomes officially bilingual, I could only gain. Either way, I'm not complaining about the current situation, so I need not to worry. Either way is fine for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is exactly the ungrateful attitude of Francophone's that make this country a lousy place to live.

If it wasn't for Ottawa, Ontario's bilingual policy, initially inspired by a Liberal friendly mayor and the federal Liberal government providing the discriminatory initiative for this to happen, there would be absolutely no official criteria, or any kind of natural initiative for a demand for the French language to develop on its own in Ottawa.

And don't worry, you will never see Ontario become 'officially bilingual if the premier of the province intends to hold his or her position for any length of time. If it did happen would be the recipe for an upheaval.

If it's so lousy, nothing's forcing you to stay.

Ontario's bilingual policy is by quotas. Ontario does not have French as an official language, yet they still serve Ontarians in French where the demand exists. This has nothing to do with the supposive "artificial demand" established by the federal government.

I'm not worried, by the way (where do you get these ideas about how I might feel?), though I appreciate the concern. I already know both domestic languages, so if Ontario becomes officially bilingual, I could only gain. Either way, I'm not complaining about the current situation, so I need not to worry. Either way is fine for me.

Don't be an ass!

Ontario has for a long time has a bilingual policy to provide certain services to Francophone's 'where numbers warrant' UNLIKE in entitled QUEBEC that has NO BILINGUAL POLICY ANYWHERE.

Man, you would almost think stuffed Quebec won the battle on the 'Plains of Abraham'.

I only know a single language and in my mind NO OTHER language other than majority English matters and that's the only language I will ever fight for, the language of the victors who won Canada and as well is the language the U.S. uses and is the language many countries use that dominates the commercial world, unlike French whereas it is popular among a handful of African countries.

Canada is a lousy place to live because of Quebec, but since I was born here I will never allow a minority to run me out of my own country.

I will always remember what the FLQ did and don't think for a moment if push ever comes to shove, the English are as equally as capable of pursuing national goals.

See you around Kapitan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is exactly the ungrateful attitude of Francophone's that make this country a lousy place to live.

If it wasn't for Ottawa, Ontario's bilingual policy, initially inspired by a Liberal friendly mayor and the federal Liberal government providing the discriminatory initiative for this to happen, there would be absolutely no official criteria, or any kind of natural initiative for a demand for the French language to develop on its own in Ottawa.

And don't worry, you will never see Ontario become 'officially bilingual if the premier of the province intends to hold his or her position for any length of time. If it did happen would be the recipe for an upheaval.

If it's so lousy, nothing's forcing you to stay.

Ontario's bilingual policy is by quotas. Ontario does not have French as an official language, yet they still serve Ontarians in French where the demand exists. This has nothing to do with the supposive "artificial demand" established by the federal government.

I'm not worried, by the way (where do you get these ideas about how I might feel?), though I appreciate the concern. I already know both domestic languages, so if Ontario becomes officially bilingual, I could only gain. Either way, I'm not complaining about the current situation, so I need not to worry. Either way is fine for me.

Don't be an ass!

Ontario has for a long time has a bilingual policy to provide certain services to Francophone's 'where numbers warrant' UNLIKE in entitled QUEBEC that has NO BILINGUAL POLICY ANYWHERE.

Man, you would almost think stuffed Quebec won the battle on the 'Plains of Abraham'.

I only know a single language and in my mind NO OTHER language other than majority English matters and that's the only language I will ever fight for, the language of the victors who won Canada and as well is the language the U.S. uses and is the language many countries use that dominates the commercial world, unlike French whereas it is popular among a handful of African countries.

Canada is a lousy place to live because of Quebec, but since I was born here I will never allow a minority to run me out of my own country.

I will always remember what the FLQ did and don't think for a moment if push ever comes to shove, the English are as equally as capable of pursuing national goals.

See you around Kapitan.

Why should Québec and Ontario have the same bilingual policies? Out of ten provinces, one is French-only, one is officially bilingual, one is unofficially bilingual and the rest are English-only. Besides, due to the large English-speaking communities in Québec who don't speak French (or refuse to speak it), the provincial government of Québec is forced to supply provincial services in English, despite not having a bilingual policy. On paper, they have no such policy, yet in practice, Québec is a province of both Canadian languages, about as bilingual as Ontario.

Wow, to think that only your language matters is a little self-centered. I'd say that English may be the most important language in most cases, but not the only important language. For instance, when the Queen of England and the president of France meet, they always speak to eachother in French. The English language is now the "international language" thanks to the United States, having nothing to do with language policies within Canadian borders. I'd say other than English, other major languages are more "purpose-orientated", for instance German is the second most important language in International Business in the United States and Europe (and also very important in philosophy and to some extent research), French is still a very diplomatic language (in high demand for diplomatic purposes in the United States aswell), is very useful in International Development, is the only language other than English spoken officially in five continents, is an official working language for plenty of international organizations, plus the French are surprisingly still big developers in science and technology. Spanish is spoken by a really large number of people and Latin American countries have very low rates of residents fluent in English, so anyone interested in anything regarding Latin America or even the United States' hispanic community would be much better off knowing Spanish. Japanese is the official language to the world's second most powerful economy, Mandarin has the highest count on this planet of residents speaking it as a first language... there are plenty of very important languages. Knowing at least two give people an incredible advantage over their monolingual peers.

No minority would be able to run you out of your own country, but complaining about the current situation will not change anything. You always have the freedom to leave, even to move to antoher province, which not everyone on this planet has (not everyone can leave their country so easily as Canadians). You don't have to leave, just as you wouldn't be forced to leave any country unless you were to commit a serious crime or to disobey customs policies in a country other than your own. Canada has room for everyone (in fact the world's population could fit comfortably in the state of Texas... the whole place would look like New York City, but it could be done!), so no one has to leave. Canada certainly has room for more.

The FLQ? Ok, I'll agree that English are just as capable as francophones of reading Marx's stories, losing their mind and going on a communist rampage. By the way, the English are in England, so this is irrelevant. If you're talking about English-speaking Canadians, I am not convinced that they all share your national goals. Not all anglophones in Canada are upset about the bilingual policies and many will agree that there's room in Canada for two languages. Canada is the only country in the world with stop signs in French, so losing that would be losing a Canadian distinction, making us a little less special.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why should Québec and Ontario have the same bilingual policies? Out of ten provinces, one is French-only, one is officially bilingual, one is unofficially bilingual and the rest are English-only.

Why should we have any form of bilingualism at all? The only legal right Quebec has pertaining to French, is relating to the use of French in its own province, excluding of course Charter rights that are responsible for the undemocratic 'French Languages Act in Ontario' that discriminates against the majority English language in Ontario, and forces majority English taxpayers to provide French services to 24 Francophone designated areas in Ontario. If Quebec choose not to deal with the ROC in English, so be it, big deal.

To begin with bilingualism should be determined by the people, not the government, with the latter being the case in Canada.

The federal government of Canada has effectively poisoned any chance for bilingualism to succeed by trying to create a purpose for bilingualism and as failed miserably.

Primarily it has failed in its efforts to make Quebec sign the Constitution of Canada. We all are aware of Quebec using the NWC (notwithstanding clause), but in all rights, it must make Quebec sign the Constitution of Canada like all other provinces in Canada before it proceeds with any type of bilingual policy.

Secondly, the federal government of Canada failed to incorporate Canadians to decide if we really want bilingualism.

Thirdly, it has failed by allowing Quebec to incorporate a racist language policy, Bill-101, that defies Charter rights.

Fourthly, for the government of Canada not to aggressively pursue 'official bilingualism' in Quebec, recognizes Quebec as being 'officially distinct' is totally undemocratic in the sense Quebec is a province in Canada and Canadians must be involved in the process to determine Quebec's so called distinctness.

Fifthly, everything that concerns bilingualism in Canada such as 'official languages', official multiculturalism, the Charter of rights and Freedoms was done unilaterally in a most undemocratic manner by the federal government, excluding the 'legal collective will' of all Canadians.

If bilingualism is not free flowing on its own accord, then it is not bilingualism but state legislated languages, a disgusting abnormality, in a democratic society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I only know a single language and in my mind NO OTHER language other than majority English matters and that's the only language I will ever fight for, the language of the victors who won Canada

I am sorry, didn't someone post "dont be an ass"? Hey that was you !

Canada is a lousy place to live because of Quebec, but since I was born here I will never allow a minority to run me out of my own country.

Internet commando, have you at least, for our sake, thought of maybe moving somewhere else ?

I will always remember what the FLQ did and don't think for a moment if push ever comes to shove, the English are as equally as capable of pursuing national goals.

Oh good one, cuz we all know the FLQ is a valid rep for every Quebecer.

We know we know, the Govt forgot your phone number when the Charter was being written and since they did not consult you it is worthless.

But your ideas are so much better, every day we would have a vote on something , just so you know you that you are consulted. Of course it would bankrupt our country, but you would be happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd say that English may be the most important language in most cases, but not the only important language. For instance, when the Queen of England and the president of France meet, they always speak to each other in French.

The Queen of England can speak two languages, one being English and the other being French.

The Queen is diplomatic and cordial.

This is why she speaks French when visiting France on official duties, it has nothing to do with French being a language of world importance.

The English language is now the "international language" thanks to the United States, having nothing to do with language policies within Canadian borders.

The U.S. was formed by ex-British loyalist the same British loyalist that won Canada and both use the English language. Our constitution is British as our laws are based on English laws.

No minority would be able to run you out of your own country, but complaining about the current situation will not change anything. You always have the freedom to leave, even to move to another province, which not everyone on this planet has (not everyone can leave their country so easily as Canadians).

It would be a lot easier for Quebec to leave Canada as they are the root of continual constitutional problems. Besides, you don't really know how many Canadians despise any type of official bilingualism, as the citizens of Canada were never given the official opportunity to be heard concerning any issue concerning official bilingualism or our Charter. We need a referendum to determine that officially, as polls cannot be trusted.

The FLQ? Ok, I'll agree that English are just as capable as francophones of reading Marx's stories, losing their mind and going on a communist rampage. By the way, the English are in England, so this is irrelevant.

No its not.

Our constitution was given to us by the British and so are our English based laws as well as English being the language of the large majority. In case you didn't know the Queen is still 'Queen of Canada'.

Canada is the only country in the world with stop signs in French, so losing that would be losing a Canadian distinction, making us a little less special.

This shows how irresponsible the Quebec government is' printing public stop signs in a minority language (possibly endangering peoples lives) and does not say much for the federal government allowing this, and does not exactly jive with the international language of the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...