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According to internal government documents, had the Conservatives not scrapped Project Green, Canada would have met 80 per cent of its Kyoto targets two years before the deadline.
So why didn't the Liberals do it?
Because it would have required federal programs and transfer payments to be slashed in order to come up with the $20 billion to buy credits.
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Most irresponsible and politically loaded legislation to pass in the House in recent memory.
Most people who defend the status quo in the senate claim that the unelected senate is necessary to be a house of 'sober second thought' that ensures ill-advised legislation does not get passed. This bill is clearly ill advised and should be killed by the senate. I suspect it won't.
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The automotive industry is a good example what happens when you don't buy domestically produced automobiles which equates to thousands of lost jobs in the automotive industry. Pertaining to our economy this is like Canadians shooting themselves in the foot.

So you buy a domestic cars even when they are crappy?

Domestically Produced cars are not "Crappy".

Many manufacturers produce vehicles in Ontario because of the quality of the labour force and the quality of the finished product.

Japanese cars made in Canada are excellent.

American Manufacturers often give awards to their Canadian Plants for Productivity and Quality.

I work in an industry that supports all the 5 S and 6 Sigma programs, the ISO programs and all other various industrial standards for quality and traceability. You can trace a bad component exactly to the person that made it.

People must realize that the domestic Auto Industry encompasses more than the 3 popular North American Manufacturers.

Chryslers losses are the result of poor sales world wide.

GM sales are the results of cars designed by accountants. (Boring)

Ford losses are the result of corporate incompetence. This is the result of maintaining a business structure devised from the Flintstones.

Japanese Manufacturers build cars here. People here buy these cars.

American and Japanese have many co-operative plants in Canada and worldwide.

Do I think people should by domestic vehicles over Korean? Of course it is good to know they were built here. You have to look at the serial #s to know where a car is assembled.

A North American Model made in Mexico gives me the frights.

Cars made in China are known to have steering wheels fall off.

Should the auto industry get into cleaner emitting vehicles? The demand for these kinds of cars will increase in the following decades. People will want newer technology in their vehicles.

But for today, if you should ask, do I buy a car made in Canada that is crappy. The answer is no.

But how much is marketing and how much is consumer demand, and how much is actually crap?

Don't buy crap regardless of its origins. But soon the Corrolla, Lexus and Matrix are going to be made here as well. Regardless of people whom want to rave at Japanese Autos vs American Autos, the fact is, they all are made in Ontario.

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.. politically loaded legislation to pass in the House in recent memory.
Most people who defend the status quo in the senate claim that the unelected senate is necessary to be a house of 'sober second thought' that ensures ill-advised legislation does not get passed. This bill is clearly ill advised and should be killed by the senate. I suspect it won't.

Why do you think it is ill-advised, it puts Harper and the CPC on the spot, they are pretending to go green, when they really mean no such thing. Their reaction proves they were lying to Canadians.

The opposition called them on their actions, and the CPC's face was shown.

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only in yoru dream world. Teh only people pretending here are the people that think it's possible (to say nothing of wether it is even beneficial) to meet our "Kyoto targets" by 2012.

It is not possible and the opposition are pretending that it is.

btw - support or not of Kyoto has nothing to do with being 'green'. It would be more accurate to say that it has alot more to do with being 'red'.

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only in yoru dream world. Teh only people pretending here are the people that think it's possible (to say nothing of wether it is even beneficial) to meet our "Kyoto targets" by 2012.

It is not possible and the opposition are pretending that it is.

btw - support or not of Kyoto has nothing to do with being 'green'. It would be more accurate to say that it has alot more to do with being 'red'.

Beneficial in what way?

It is not possible now that the CPC dumped it all over ago, but we can get close.

What are you talking about red?

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only in yoru dream world. Teh only people pretending here are the people that think it's possible (to say nothing of wether it is even beneficial) to meet our "Kyoto targets" by 2012.

It is not possible and the opposition are pretending that it is.

btw - support or not of Kyoto has nothing to do with being 'green'. It would be more accurate to say that it has alot more to do with being 'red'.

Beneficial in what way?

It is not possible now that the CPC dumped it all over ago, but we can get close.

What are you talking about red?

let me get this straight.. you are solely blaming the CPC for Canada not meeting our Kyoto targets?

red as in socialist red. The green agenda has been hijacked by socialists. just like feminism has been.

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Time to call an election. The in-reality leaderless Liberals don't stand a chance if the CPC can spin this right. Most Canadian's with a brain in their head understand that sending billions and billions of our dollars to China and Russia for them to build coal plants is not doing dick all for the environment.

It's the CPC majority to lose when the other 3 parties are so hell bent on destroying Canada's wealth for no actual change in international emissions. Today was a terrible day for our future.

Perhaps it is time for an election.

I certainly don't think the Liberal plans for the environment was great but many people are still not convinced the Tories really believe in global warming anyway.

The next 60 days will tell.

Who cares if they believe in it or not? They have made it a priority because they hear Canadians. Whether it is real or not, should it be the number 1 priority? No. It should be drastically overhauling the medicare system that will bankrupt the nation in the next 10 years or creating massive wait times due to the aging baby boomers. The Libs don't have the nuts to touch this issue because it will be unpopular with voters. Harper has shown he will make unpopular decisions for the good of the country (i.e. income trusts). Get Dion in there and he'll protect the ticking time bomb for political gain.

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only in yoru dream world. Teh only people pretending here are the people that think it's possible (to say nothing of wether it is even beneficial) to meet our "Kyoto targets" by 2012.

It is not possible and the opposition are pretending that it is.

btw - support or not of Kyoto has nothing to do with being 'green'. It would be more accurate to say that it has alot more to do with being 'red'.

Beneficial in what way?

It is not possible now that the CPC dumped it all over ago, but we can get close.

What are you talking about red?

Buying credits doesn't clean up the environment. And no, Canada can't get close unless all industry is shut down and people stop driving cars, heating their homes and eating steak.

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Though I would like to see a link, oh here is the link, Hiti appears to be dead on with her cited facts

What link? This is to a page of readers comments. When did they become facts?

The economy won't be effected. What he is saying is that the oil patch will be affected. It won't be. Was watching Canadian AM this morning about the oil patch being in fact the world's largest supply of accessible oil. With reserves into the trillions of barrels. The fact is they want to get that oil as cheap as possible with no concern for the environment. Can't have emission caps, would cut into the record profit margins and all that to make the oil patch environmentally friendly. Too bad.
'

As far as I know the only way to extract oil from the tar sands is to use a lot of heat. Certainly the production of that heat should be made as environmentally friendly as possible but regardless it will have to come from fossil fuels as it does now or from nuclear reactors. Do the Liberals have some secret new process that they are going to let us in on or other secret non greenhouse gas emitting energy supply to provide that heat or do they think their own hot air will be sufficient?

What did the Liberals do about meeting Kyoto over the last 10 years other than comming up with a plan or pass a motion that makes complying with Kyoto law when they have no power to do so. Why didn't they pass such a law when they did have that power? We all know the answer to that, don't we. Hell, any idiot can make a plan.

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Buying credits doesn't clean up the environment.

Not our "national" environment. But isn't it only 2% so who cares if buying credits doesn't lower ours?

And no, Canada can't get close unless all industry is shut down and people stop driving cars, heating their homes and eating steak.

I don't believe there has been any program by the Liberals to get us close to these targets. I don't believe that the CPC believed in the argument let alone the treaty, thus the 1 year delay and the elimination of environmental programs. Now they have become "believers" in GHG emmissions because the "polls" say it's important. Quite frankly if the polls said nobody (Noahbody):-) cares about GHG then the CPC wouldn't be lifting a finger in any environmental direction.

The NDP MPs have said that the delays have created an untenable situation.

You have to wonder why nobody grabbed the ball and ran with this when the treaty was signed. Unless the intent was to pay foreign countries while we continued to emit increasing GHGs.

I have to wonder why the CPC didn't just abandon the treaty, say we can't meet it because of the lack of action of the previous government, then implement some sort of plan.

Clearly they are playing politics behind closed doors on their own Clean Air Act, and would rather see it die, then advance it into something productive.

As of today we have a treaty signed, that our country will have to address sooner or later, and we will need a full environmental action plan that works within the current economy that allows for growth and economic benefits for action regardless of where we end up with Kyoto, people want to move forward with addressing GHG.

Now I am interested in where you got your facts on shutting down industry, driving cars, heating homes and eating steak?

It sounds ridiculous to suggest such nonsense. Or is that your point?

Meeting 2012 goals are just as nonsensical?

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The facts are:

*When comparable figures are used, pollution in Canada in 2002 actually decreased 13 per cent from 1998 levels.

*Emissions of sulphur oxides, which cause acid rain and smog decreased by 50 per cent.

*Emissions from toxic substances lead, mercury, cadmium and dioxins and furans dropped by 65 to 75 per cent from 1990 to 2003.

*In the chemical sector, annual releases of toxic substances have been reduced by two thirds since 1992, down to 1,100 tonnes from 3,400 tonnes.

*Since the 1970s Canada has reduced its mercury release by 90 per cent and more reductions are expected.

Even if they are facts, none of them have anything to do the Kyoto Accord.

According to internal government documents, had the Conservatives not scrapped Project Green, Canada would have met 80 per cent of its Kyoto targets two years before the deadline.

So why didn't the Liberals do it?

Apparently they were doing it, or Canada would NOT have been going to meet 80% of its targets 2 years before the deadline. Though I would like to see a link, oh here is the link, Hiti appears to be dead on with her cited facts

Your so-called link says NOTHING whatsoever to support anything you posted above. Hiti pulled the figure out of his ass.

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It is not possible now that the CPC dumped it all over ago, but we can get close.

It was never possible, it's not in Canada's interest and never was. The agreement was designed to take money from the 1st world and send it to the 3rd, without a doubt. Canada was a target.

It's a terrible agreement, even if all conditions are met, global emissions can increase amazingly (and they have).

Get your head out of your ass and realise that results matter and not some peice of phony socialist paper.

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The economy won't be effected. What he is saying is that the oil patch will be affected. It won't be. Was watching Canadian AM this morning about the oil patch being in fact the world's largest supply of accessable oil. With reserves into the trillions of barrels. The fact is they want to get that oil as cheap as possible with no concern for the environment. Can't have emission caps, would cut into the record profit margins and all that to make the oil patch environmentally friendly. Too bad.

The fact is they will want that oil NO MATTER WHAT. If they have to go green they will, they just do not want to. With Harper in government they are safe, and we all now know that.

You really should look into the economics of retrieving oil from the ground, especially oil sands. It wasn't even economic to extract oil from the oil sands until oil rose above $50. There are a lot of costs involved.

Ya the NEP didn't affect the oil patch either. And all those record profit margins... No one was crying for the oil patch when oil was $20/bbl and families were losing their homes. Of course once anyone in Alberta starts making any money it's time to reign the selfish bastards in. It's the Canadian way.

I agree with Argus, the Canadian media is doing a huge disservice to Canadians by contributing to the brainwashing of Canadians. We need some balance in the media to give the other side. We'll see how much Canadians gush about Kyoto when gas is $2 a litre. Of course we could legislate that any CO2 taxes would not be passed on to the consumer and shut down oil production in Canada completely. Kill the golden goose... also the Canadian way.

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The automotive industry is a good example what happens when you don't buy domestically produced automobiles which equates to thousands of lost jobs in the automotive industry. Pertaining to our economy this is like Canadians shooting themselves in the foot.

So you buy a domestic cars even when they are crappy?

Domestically Produced cars are not "Crappy".

Many manufacturers produce vehicles in Ontario because of the quality of the labour force and the quality of the finished product.

Japanese cars made in Canada are excellent.

American Manufacturers often give awards to their Canadian Plants for Productivity and Quality.

I work in an industry that supports all the 5 S and 6 Sigma programs, the ISO programs and all other various industrial standards for quality and traceability. You can trace a bad component exactly to the person that made it.

People must realize that the domestic Auto Industry encompasses more than the 3 popular North American Manufacturers.

Chryslers losses are the result of poor sales world wide.

GM sales are the results of cars designed by accountants. (Boring)

Ford losses are the result of corporate incompetence. This is the result of maintaining a business structure devised from the Flintstones.

Japanese Manufacturers build cars here. People here buy these cars.

American and Japanese have many co-operative plants in Canada and worldwide.

Do I think people should by domestic vehicles over Korean? Of course it is good to know they were built here. You have to look at the serial #s to know where a car is assembled.

A North American Model made in Mexico gives me the frights.

Cars made in China are known to have steering wheels fall off.

Should the auto industry get into cleaner emitting vehicles? The demand for these kinds of cars will increase in the following decades. People will want newer technology in their vehicles.

But for today, if you should ask, do I buy a car made in Canada that is crappy. The answer is no.

But how much is marketing and how much is consumer demand, and how much is actually crap?

Don't buy crap regardless of its origins. But soon the Corrolla, Lexus and Matrix are going to be made here as well. Regardless of people whom want to rave at Japanese Autos vs American Autos, the fact is, they all are made in Ontario.

When I referred to "domestically produced automobiles', I was referring to traditional North American vehicles, the big-three, Ford, Gm and Chrysler and I think that is what jdobbin was making reference to also as "crappy".

But I never understood this, as I find Japanese automobiles inferior in many respects, compared to North American vehicles.

Maybe jdobbin can explain why he considers Japanese vehicles so superior?

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While it is only a snapshot, some of the JD Power initial quality ratings are interesting. The Chrysler 300C for instance scores the same as a Lexus IS250 and slightly better than the C Class Mercedes. Long term reliability and resale may differ but you have to wonder how much is perception and how much is fact.

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Kyoto is nothing but a waste of money.

It does nothing for the enviroment in our country or the beneficiary (of our money) country. It only lines pockets.

IMO Automobiles have come a long way and I don't think vehicles have much of an impact in the scheme of things anyway.

Higher polluters are aircraft, ships, factories and the like.

And reducing emmissions needs to be affordable, both on the personal and industrial levels.

Somebody (yooo hooo!, right wing organizations) should plaster the TV and newspapers with ads outlining what Kyoto is really all about!

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While it is only a snapshot, some of the JD Power initial quality ratings are interesting. The Chrysler 300C for instance scores the same as a Lexus IS250 and slightly better than the C Class Mercedes. Long term reliability and resale may differ but you have to wonder how much is perception and how much is fact.

Marketing is a great tool. Playing catchup to a manufacturer that set the standard be it , quality or safety, makes it difficult to remove the myth.

All Manufacturers could produce clean cars in the near future. The Japanese are pressing forward and will catch all the North American Manufacturers with their pants down again.

People will want these vehicles and demand will cover the R&D, just like all new models.

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IMO Automobiles have come a long way and I don't think vehicles have much of an impact in the scheme of things anyway.

Obviously I am a big fan of the combustion engine. I believe that these motors were made over 100 years ago to service people like me whom are too lazy to engage in organic power.

But your opinion leaves alot to be desired.

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