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August1991

Canada Federal Carbon Dioxide CO2 Tax

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2 hours ago, Armchairprophet said:

Giving me the money back I spent on carbon taxes is not going to alter my spending habits. In fact it's been proven over and over again that taxes in general do NOT alter people's spending habits. Unless the goal is to tax them into the poor house. 

Raising the price/tax of cigarettes reduces the consumption/purchase of cigarettes - even if the government gives back all the money raised to everyone, including non-smokers.

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10 hours ago, August1991 said:

Raising the price/tax of cigarettes reduces the consumption/purchase of cigarettes - even if the government gives back all the money raised to everyone, including non-smokers.

No, education reduces the consumption. All raising the price/tax does is cause more people to by Native smokes. Take a look at all the govt and police  complaints about black market Native smokes. By making a pack of cigarettes ridiculously expensive with all the extra taxes, the govt is actually losing money to Native cigs. 

When I was in Britain in the mid-'80s, gas was around $5 a gallon there. Today it's around $10 a gallon and there's more cars on British roads than ever.  Taxes rarely change spending habits.

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18 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Let's face it . . . . this country is ungovernable. :ph34r:

On the contrary, it's far too easily governed, for we are far too submissive to the demands of government and the 'guidance' of the media.

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On 6/8/2019 at 1:48 PM, Armchairprophet said:

No, education reduces the consumption. All raising the price/tax does is cause more people to by Native smokes....

Armchairprophet, I admire both your naivety and your cynicism.

====

So, let's agree: Changing incentives changes behaviour.

The greater the cost of doing something stupid, the less people do stupid.

Edited by August1991

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On 6/8/2019 at 1:48 PM, Armchairprophet said:

 Taxes rarely change spending habits.

Economics 101 - if you raise the price of something the demand at that price goes down.

 

demand_supply_demand1.gif

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12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Economics 101 - if you raise the price of something the demand at that price goes down.

 

demand_supply_demand1.gif

you better retake your econ 150 :rolleyes:

5074-6.1-4rq-i1.png

Edited by egghead

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4 minutes ago, egghead said:

you better retake your econ 150 :rolleyes:

 

Indeed...there is always a chapter on "inelastic demand".

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On 6/8/2019 at 3:07 AM, August1991 said:

Raising the price/tax of cigarettes reduces the consumption/purchase of cigarettes - even if the government gives back all the money raised to everyone, including non-smokers.

Proof?

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11 minutes ago, egghead said:

you better retake your econ 150 :rolleyes:

5074-6.1-4rq-i1.png

 

Thank you Egg.  

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On 6/8/2019 at 12:07 AM, August1991 said:

Raising the price/tax of cigarettes reduces the consumption/purchase of cigarettes - even if the government gives back all the money raised to everyone, including non-smokers.

That is the problem with leftists. Are you comparing the necessities of modern life to bad habit :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, egghead said:

That is the problem with leftists. Are you comparing the necessities of modern life to bad habit :rolleyes:

This is the problem.  A carbon tax is a tax on existence.  We are carbon footprints and the cost of living is already high.  The government should just legislate the use of more energy efficient tech or incentivize it if that’s too painful for industry.  

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On 6/10/2019 at 8:00 PM, egghead said:

That is the problem with leftists. Are you comparing the necessities of modern life to bad habit :rolleyes:

Disagree.

Left? Right? Team A? B?

The problem with "leftists" is not "necessities/bad habits".

The problem is that "some people" want to decide/control the choices of "other people".

Yet, to co-operate, we need to get along.

====

Egghead,

True - it may take time before the price of stupid changes choices.

But look around the universe. When the price of stupid is high, there's less stupid.

    

Edited by August1991

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8 hours ago, August1991 said:

1. The problem is that "some people" want to decide/control the choices of "other people".

2. But look around the universe. When the price of stupid is high, there's less stupid.

    

This post assumes your assumptions from above:

1. Not a problem with leftists.  I want to control people who endanger MY existence.  Rightists want to stop people from wearing religious garb, dressing like the gender they like, or going nude etc.  They get offended by people who express themselves, for some reason.  They also want the right to spread hate.  The leftists just want to live and let live.  
2. I don't want people to have the 'freedom' to extinct the species.  Go find your own planet.

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19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This post assumes your assumptions from above:

1. Not a problem with leftists.  I want to control people who endanger MY existence.  Rightists want to stop people from wearing religious garb, dressing like the gender they like, or going nude etc.  They get offended by people who express themselves, for some reason.  They also want the right to spread hate.  The leftists just want to live and let live.  
2. I don't want people to have the 'freedom' to extinct the species.  Go find your own planet.

See you want to control other people's lives, and so does the left, and y'all use the perfect rubric to justify any intervention into said people's lives, otherwise they are "killing" you. Dangerous totalitarian mindset based on imagined doomsday scenario to justify the power grab. 100% a problem with leftists.

You aren't going to save the planet by forcing people to behave the way you want them to anyway, so basically it's all downside and no upside, live and let live my ass, it's the complete opposite. Just because you can point fingers at some right wing folks who want to control the lives of others doesn't make the left innocent, far from it. 

How about you lefties go find your own planet? Stop telling everyone on this one how they have to live. Your "Climate Doomsday! The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling" act is nothing but knee jerk control freaks paving the road to hell with their good intentions by empowering government intervention that will save no one.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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9 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree.

Left? Right? Team A? B?

The problem with "leftists" is not "necessities/bad habits".

The problem is that "some people" want to decide/control the choices of "other people".

Yet, to co-operate, we need to get along.

====

Egghead,

True - it may take time before the price of stupid changes choices.

But look around the universe. When the price of stupid is high, there's less stupid.

    

c'mon man, you are the queen of "Let them eat cake"ville. What is the other choices? Show us the options. Or, you are Andrew Weaver,  "we shall all mortgage our house to get an used EV" :unsure:

Edited by egghead

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11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. See you want to control other people's lives, and so does the left, and y'all use the perfect rubric to justify any intervention into said people's lives, otherwise they are "killing" you.

2. Dangerous totalitarian mindset based on imagined doomsday scenario to justify the power grab. 100% a problem with leftists.

3. You aren't going to save the planet by forcing people to behave the way you want them to anyway, so basically it's all downside and no upside, live and let live my ass,

4. how about you go find your own planet, and stop telling everyone on this one how they have to live?

1. Let me ask you if I should be 'free' to dump toxins next door to where you live.  True conservatism says no.  You are responsible for what you do.

2. It's not my fault you have opted to listen to liars and charlatans who paint real science as fake for their own greed.  Your mindset is the dangerous one and the problems are real.  It's not even a problem with conservatives that Climate Change hasn't stuck - it's a small subgroup of rubes who have been played.

3. Why not ?  Nixon formed the EPA - how many lives did he change ?  If Nixon is a leftist to you, you really should get out of the debate once and for all.  

4. You first.  

 

 

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The proposed measures of most leftist will not save the planet, on the face of them, all they do, is give the government more power because it makes you feel better. If you think government intervention has the power to save the planet when it come to climate change, you are a fool who has WAY too much faith in government intervention in general, a typical leftist child viewing the government as your all powerful parent who can make any problem go away.

Your childish worldview and your savior complex are driving you to want the government invade people's lives unnecessarily, because some idiots told you a doomsday was coming and the only solution was give the government more power over the lives of the people, and you fell for it because they appealed to authority.

If you want to help the environment, more unnecessary government intervention is not the way to do it, that will just make things worse. "Doing something" is not a good idea if that "something" is counter-productive, giant government power grabs are clearly counter-productive, I don't care how noble the cause is that you claim to be "doing something" for, that doesn't change that reality.

The left is great at identifying the problem, but then they embellish that problem, because they want the stakes to be higher so that more people will buy into their shitty proposed solutions out of panic. Time to step your game up lefties.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. The proposed measures of most leftist will not save the planet, on the face of them, all they do, is give the government more power because it makes you feel better.

2. If you think government intervention has the power to save the planet when it come to climate change, you are a fool who has WAY too much faith in government intervention in general, a typical leftist child viewing the government as your all powerful parent who can make any problem go away.

3. Your childish worldview and your savior complex are driving you to want the government ...

 

1. That's your characterization of the argument but it's not real.  If it makes you feel "better" to say the whole thing is a sham and a conspiracy please go ahead.  Actually, you will help the cause against Climate Change because nobody is really moving forward with that angle anymore.

2. Except that there's evidence that warming slows with curbs on CO2.  But you are in a world of your own information.  Please stay there.

3. Who is childish ?  The one who believes in institutions and research or the one who believes that there's a big worldwide conspiracy to take your money ?  I don't think the government is the solution for everything.  Your childish need to psychologically profile me indicates that you don't have actual objective facts.

If you want to keep this conversation going, please stop making characterizations of my personality thanks.

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On 6/10/2019 at 7:32 PM, egghead said:

you better retake your econ 150 :rolleyes:

Your reply graph changes the discussion to 'life saving drug' demand which isn't the same thing at all.

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My characterization is entirely accurate. The proposed solutions will not fix the problem, and they will do great economic damage. You just want the left's proposed solutions to help, but you have no facts to back up that these proposed solutions are helping, period. It's all wishful thinking on your part, based on a misplaced faith in government intervention to make the Climate behave the way you want, by forcing people to behave the way you want.

If you want people to take you seriously, try proposing solutions that will actually improve the environment.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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19 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Dangerous totalitarian mindset based on imagined doomsday scenario to justify the power grab. 

On the news 5 minutes ago: several mills in the Cariboo region of BC are shutting down.  Why?  Pine beetles and forest fires have reduced the timber supply.  Climate change means that pine beetles can survive winters and kill more trees and that there are more forest fires.  Not doomsday for you, perhaps, but certainly for the people and small towns who have relied on the forest industry for their livelihood for generations. 

Carbon tax reduces the use of fossil fuels which reduces the effects on our climate.  It's true we must do much more, but it's the people who object to a few extra cents at the pump because "it's not gonna work" and the politicians who pander to them who are the danger to all of us.  

16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If you want to help the environment, more unnecessary government intervention

And so what does "the right" propose to mitigate the effects of climate change?  I have heard nothing from them except complaints about taxes, whining about gender, immigrants and Islam, mockery about species extinction and the crisis our children and grandchildren will face as much of the world becomes uninhabitable if we continue to do nothing.  If government intervention isn't the answer, what does "the right" propose?

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Poor forest management that caters to environmentalists is what causes forest fires. Take your climate change excuse and shove it. Yet again the solution being proposed to problems caused by bureaucratic mismanagement by the left, is more bureaucratic mismanagement.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And so what does "the right" propose to mitigate the effects of climate change?  I have heard nothing from them except complaints about taxes, whining about gender, immigrants and Islam, mockery about species extinction and the crisis our children and grandchildren will face as much of the world becomes uninhabitable if we continue to do nothing.  If government intervention isn't the answer, what does "the right" propose?

Come up with a better plan, and stop complaining about people pointing out the obvious flaws of a shitty plan. If you want more tax dollars, prove they will be well spent, or take a hike. Virtue signaling that you are willing to try a counter-productive plan because you can't think of anything better, so give up your tax dollars, is not an argument that impresses anyone on the right. The burden of proof is on you to prove why you need the taxes and regulations, trying something just for the sake of making yourself feel in control of situation that is beyond your control ain't going to cut it, facts matter, your feels are irrelevant.

Useless virtue signaling, as well as burdensome taxes and regulations aren't going to help the environment, and they never have.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Come up with a better plan, and stop complaining about people pointing out the obvious flaws of a shitty plan. If you want more tax dollars, prove they will be well spent, or take a hike.

Seriously?  That's all you have?  Generally in life it's the person who is complaining about the plan who is expected to demonstrate a better way.  Biatching about about the leadership of others without having anything better to offer generally gets the complainer ignored and dismissed.  

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10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Seriously?  That's all you have?  Generally in life it's the person who is complaining about the plan who is expected to demonstrate a better way.  Biatching about about the leadership of others without having anything better to offer generally gets the complainer ignored and dismissed.  

Generally in life, it's the person who is demanding people pay higher taxes and follow more regulations who should be expected to demonstrate the proposed way is worth the cost. Yet the left play idiotic games like this instead, pretending the burden of proof should be on everyone else to prove their plan sucks or it's going ahead anyway despite the clear imposition on everyone who disagrees with them.

Of course when people point out the idiotic parts of the plan, that doesn't stop the left from clinging to the dumbest ideas as the only real solution and if it wasn't for those meddling righties, the earth would be saved already. It's all delusion, and there is no snapping them out of it, they don't listen to reason, they just want to the government to have more power because they misguidedly believe it will save the world if given that power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and the environmentalist left are prime examples of this phenomenon.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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