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Saving Jessica Lynch

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Was quickly changing TV stations yesterday night when I just noticed on City TV a movie to be aired called "Saving Jessica Lynch".

Speculating, I can only imagine two possible endings.

Possible ending number one:

Bang!! Rat-tat-tat-tat. (Gunfire and explosions).

Bang (Hospital door kicked down)

US GI: Freeze!! Where's Private Lynch!!!

Iraq scum: Die you Western Infidel.

Bang!! Rat-tat-tat-tat. (Gunfire and explosions). Iraq scum drops dead.

Female voice: Over here.

US GI: US Marines, you're safe now.

The End.

Possible ending number two:

Vroom, screech. Knock, knock.

Iraqi nurse answers door: Yes may I help you?

US GI: We're looking for Private Jessica Lynch.

Iraqi nurse: She's recovering right now, please wait while we get her ready.

US GI: Thank you.

Five minutes later Jessica Lynch come out in a wheel chair.

Jessica: Hi, guys. It's good to return home.

The End.

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the actress is Canadian isnt she? HA

must be insulting to the men who actually FOUGHT the war instad of running away and crashing into a truck.

just another example of how war gets twisted and corrupted into whatever people want to see.

SirRiff

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I have a lot of respect for anyone who puts on a uniform to serve there country. Jessica lynch is very fortunate to serve her country Her unit made a wrong turn on the road and unfortunately she ended up in a big gun battle with Iraqis in which she was shot multiple times. She was lucky she survived when many others died and she is a hero for that. After that the Iraqis found her wounded, they treated her in a hospital, they even did two major operations on her. After this the story gets twisted in the media. The rest of the story is made for propaganda. When the us army blasted the hospital doors, she was resting in her bed. She was there resting for two days and one of her doctors went to the American army and gave them all her information and told them she was unguarded. If they want they can come and get her. They could have just picked her up but they waited another day figuring out what to do and how to do it. In the end they did everything Texas style and blew up the hospital trying to get to her when they would have brought her out to them if they told the Iraqis to do so. After all this the reality got sanitized and the gurus took some liberty to make some changes, applied a lil spin job and made it into a media event. What she went through was heroic enough; it’s hard to understand why anyone would want to cheapen that by adding lies to it. Hats off to guru’s who always push there agenda in the name of freedom.

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I have a lot of respect for anyone who puts on a uniform to serve there country.

True enough, but everytime I read profile on another US serviceman (or woman), he or she has joined because there he didn't have the money to go to college and the Armed Forces is the best way to get that income and experience.

We would want our defence to compose of people truly willing to give their lives in exchange for nothing (except maybe national security) instead of people who join out of desparation.

And now, the United States is considering conscription and/or bringing in the reserves.

Having said that, people continue to perform exceptionally in difficult times. Just ask any war veteran from WWI or WWII, otherwise just ordinary people.

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This is pure conservitive propaganda at it's worst. Yeah, you've heard about it like 200,000 times because the media isn't reporting the whole story. For every 1 heroic rescue story like this, theres about 500 tradegetys. We need to leave Iraq now.

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This is pure conservitive propaganda at it's worst. Yeah, you've heard about it like 200,000 times because the media isn't reporting the whole story. For every 1 heroic rescue story like this, theres about 500 tradegetys. We need to leave Iraq now.

I think you are over reacting a bit here. This is a human interest story, you know, entertainment. It was not the conservatives that made a movie or a book but rather people who saw a story and pumped it to make money. As for Lynch herself, why not make a buck if she can, she is certainly not hurting anybody. I don't imagine that she will run for President on her "War Record" in 2024 so it's like I said, human interest. If you desire real reporting and less of these types of stories then watch 20/20 instead of the movie (which BTW is not factual 100%).

And now, the Bush Administration is considering conscription and/or brining in the reserves.

Which is it? Conscription or reserves? I have not heard anything about conscription so perhaps you could provide the evidence or retract this errant statement before some of the more impressionable no minds pick up on this and make a conspiracy theory out of it.

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The proof for the WMD material showing how Iraq was determined to continue on with it's WMD programe has been found aplenty and is detailed in both Blix's report as well as Kay's. As for WMD I know as much about that as do you. They were there at one time and now have not been found. To me that is a problem that Bush has and will have to deal with sooner or later.

Now back to the errant statement you made. Read your own stuff. The pentagon is taking it on their own to feel out setting up draft board advisors or whatever. Nowhere in this does it detail anything about the administration saying squat. Nice try at the ol disinformation game. BTW, it's all over the news about the reserves being called up because that is true, the rest is a fabrication. The pentagon is not the administration so don't try to put words in their mouth to suit a false argument.

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he proof for the WMD material showing how Iraq was determined to continue on with it's WMD programe has been found aplenty and is detailed in both Blix's report as well as Kay's

there has been no proof of ungoing programs. it doesnt exist. there is "aplenty" of nothing excect old trailers and a 12 yr old gasket buried under a rose garden.

iraq was a third world nation with no conventional or WMD capability to affect its neighbors. if saddam was a madman he would have attacked already. the truth is he was a toothless tiger and no threat to the US.

the fact that bush hasnt mented WMD in months shows how nothing has materialized on that front. if they knew all about them like they claimed they should have been able to find something by now. 12 yr old documents are meaningless.

in the last 12 years the US has secretly done more evil then iraq.

SirRiff

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there has been no proof of ungoing programs. it doesnt exist. there is "aplenty" of nothing excect old trailers and a 12 yr old gasket buried under a rose garden.

Riff, why do we have to go over the same stuff time and time again? Here, this is the last time I will cut and paste this for you. Next time I will just refer you to it.

Res. 687 (3 April 1991)  Requires Iraq to declare, destroy, remove, or render harmless under UN or IAEA supervision and not to use, develop, construct, or acquire all chemical and biological weapons, all ballistic missiles with ranges greater than 150 km, and all nuclear weapons-usable material, including related material, equipment, and facilities.  The resolution also formed the Special Commission and authorized the IAEA to carry out immediate on-site inspections of WMD-related facilities based on Iraq's declarations and UNSCOM's designation of any additional locations.

All "usable material, including related material, equipment, and facilities."

In order to make your point true nothing related to WMD or their manufacture could be found. Here are two reports, the first from Kay and the second from Blix.

Material A P L E N T Y

Kay's report;

"We have discovered dozens of W.M.D.-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002," the statement said, referring to weapons of mass destruction.

"The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts has come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that I.S.G. has discovered that should have been declared to the U.N.," he said, referring to the Iraq Study Group by its initials.

Dr. Kay acknowledged, however, that his group had found very little evidence that Iraq had an ongoing nuclear program by the time of the war. The administration had argued before the war that Mr. Hussein was pursuing development of nuclear weapons, and that was a major reason Baghdad was said to pose an imminent threat to the national security of the United States.

"It clearly does not look like a massive, resurgent program, based on what we've discovered now," Dr. Kay said. "It is the program right now that we probably know the least about and have the least confidence in saying what it meant."

Dr. Kay said his group had found signs that Iraq was working hard to develop longer range and more effective missiles, including some that could travel up to 1,000 kilometers, or about 600 miles, far beyond the 150-kilometer range restriction imposed on Baghdad by the United Nations. The group has also come across evidence of clandestine attempts in recent years to obtain ballistic missile technology from North Korea.

In the biological weapons area, which was one of the areas of early focus by the Iraq Survey Group, Dr. Kay said there was evidence that Iraq's intelligence service was involved in retaining a covert research and development capacity. He added that debriefings of former Iraqi intelligence officials had "begun to unravel a clandestine network of laboratories and facilities within the security service apparatus."

These efforts were well hidden by Mr. Hussein's government, Dr. Kay reported. He noted that precursor biological agents are small and easily hidden, and that one example of an item that should have been reported last year was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B., from which a biological agent can be produced. This vial was hidden in the home of an Iraqi biological weapons scientist. Such remnants of biological agents could have allowed the Iraqis to produce biological weapons later, Dr. Kay observed.

Dr. Kay said his group had not reached a final determination about two trailers found in Iraq after the war, which the C.I.A. and Vice President male anatomy Cheney said were mobile germ weapon production units. "We have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile B.W. production effort," Dr. Kay's statement said, referring to biological weapons.

Now Blix's report;

Shortly thereafter, we receive protests from the Iraqi authorities about an unannounced inspection and about questions not relevant to weapons of mass destruction. Indeed, they were not. Demonstrations and outbursts of this kind are unlikely to occur in Iraq without initiative or encouragement from the authorities. We must ask ourselves what the motives may be for these events. They do not facilitate an already difficult job, in which we try to be effective, professional and, at the same time, correct. Where our Iraqi counterparts have some complaint they can take it up in a calmer and less unpleasant manner.

The substantive cooperation required relates above all to the obligation of Iraq to declare all programs of weapons of mass destruction and either to present items and activities for elimination or else to provide evidence supporting the conclusion that nothing proscribed remains.

Paragraph 9 of Resolution 1441 (2002) states that this cooperation shall be "active". It is not enough to open doors. Inspection is not a game of "catch as catch can". Rather, as I noted, it is a process of verification for the purpose of creating confidence. It is not built upon the premise of trust. Rather, it is designed to lead to trust, if there is both openness to the inspectors and action to present them with items to destroy or credible evidence about the absence of any such items.

On 7 December 2002, Iraq submitted a declaration of some 12,000 pages in response to Paragraph 3 of Resolution 1441 (2002) and within the time stipulated by the Security Council. In the fields of missiles and biotechnology, the declaration contains a good deal of new material and information covering the period from 1998 and onward. This is welcome.

They deserve to be taken seriously by Iraq rather than being brushed aside as evil machinations of UNSCOM. Regrettably, the 12,000 page declaration, most of which is a reprint of earlier documents, does not seem to contain any new evidence that would eliminate the questions or reduce their number. Even Iraq's letter sent in response to our recent discussions in Baghdad to the President of the Security Council on 24 January does not lead us to the resolution of these issues.

The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed.

Iraq has declared that it only produced VX on a pilot scale, just a few [metric] tons and that the quality was poor and the product unstable. Consequently, it was said, that the agent was never weaponized. Iraq said that the small quantity of agent remaining after the Gulf War was unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991.

UNMOVIC, however, has information that conflicts with this account. There are indications that Iraq had worked on the problem of purity and stabilization and that more had been achieved than has been declared. Indeed, even one of the documents provided by Iraq indicates that the purity of the agent, at least in laboratory production, was higher than declared.

There are also indications that the agent was weaponizied. In addition, there are questions to be answered concerning the fate of the VX precursor chemicals, which Iraq states were lost during bombing in the Gulf War or were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq.

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 [metric] tons. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

The discovery of a number of 122 mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions.

The investigation of these rockets is still proceeding. Iraq states that they were overlooked from 1991 from a batch of some 2,000 that were stored there during the Gulf War. This could be the case. They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

The finding of the rockets shows that Iraq needs to make more effort to ensure that its declaration is currently accurate. During my recent discussions in Baghdad, Iraq declared that it would make new efforts in this regard and had set up a committee of investigation. Since then it has reported that it has found a further four chemical rockets at a storage depot in Al Taji.

I might further mention that inspectors have found at another site a laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor.

Whilst I am addressing chemical issues, I should mention a matter, which I reported on 19 December 2002, concerning equipment at a civilian chemical plant at Al Fallujah. Iraq has declared that it had repaired chemical processing equipment previously destroyed under UNSCOM supervision, and had installed it at Fallujah for the production of chlorine and phenols. We have inspected this equipment and are conducting a detailed technical evaluation of it. On completion, we will decide whether this and other equipment that has been recovered by Iraq should be destroyed.

Biological Weapons

I have mentioned the issue of anthrax to the Council on previous occasions and I come back to it as it is an important one.

Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 liters of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.

There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.

As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.

In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq's Foreign Minister stated that "all imported quantities of growth media were declared". This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 liters of concentrated anthrax.

Missiles

I turn now to the missile sector. There remain significant questions as to whether Iraq retained SCUD-type missiles after the Gulf War. Iraq declared the consumption of a number of SCUD missiles as targets in the development of an anti-ballistic missile defense system during the 1980s. Yet no technical information has been produced about that program or data on the consumption of the missiles.

There has been a range of developments in the missile field during the past four years presented by Iraq as non-proscribed activities. We are trying to gather a clear understanding of them through inspections and on-site discussions.

Two projects in particular stand out. They are the development of a liquid-fueled missile named the Al Samoud 2, and a solid propellant missile, called the Al Fatah. Both missiles have been tested to a range in excess of the permitted range of 150 km, with the Al Samoud 2 being tested to a maximum of 183 km and the Al Fatah to 161 km. Some of both types of missiles have already been provided to the Iraqi Armed Forces even though it is stated that they are still undergoing development.

The Al Samoud's diameter was increased from an earlier version to the present 760 mm. This modification was made despite a 1994 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM directing Iraq to limit its missile diameters to less than 600 mm. Furthermore, a November 1997 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM to Iraq prohibited the use of engines from certain surface-to-air missiles for the use in ballistic missiles.

During my recent meeting in Baghdad, we were briefed on these two programs. We were told that the final range for both systems would be less than the permitted maximum range of 150 km.

These missiles might well represent prima facie cases of proscribed systems. The test ranges in excess of 150 km are significant, but some further technical considerations need to be made, before we reach a conclusion on this issue. In the mean time, we have asked Iraq to cease flight tests of both missiles.

In addition, Iraq has refurbished its missile production infrastructure. In particular, Iraq reconstituted a number of casting chambers, which had previously been destroyed under UNSCOM supervision. They had been used in the production of solid-fuel missiles. Whatever missile system these chambers are intended for, they could produce motors for missiles capable of ranges significantly greater than 150 km.

Also associated with these missiles and related developments is the import, which has been taking place during the last few years, of a number of items despite the sanctions, including as late as December 2002. Foremost amongst these is the import of 380 rocket engines which may be used for the Al Samoud 2.

Find Documents

When we have urged our Iraqi counterparts to present more evidence, we have all too often met the response that there are no more documents. All existing relevant documents have been presented, we are told. All documents relating to the biological weapons program were destroyed together with the weapons.

However, Iraq has all the archives of the Government and its various departments, institutions and mechanisms. It should have budgetary documents, requests for funds and reports on how they have been used. It should also have letters of credit and bills of lading, reports on production and losses of material.

The recent inspection find in the private home of a scientist of a box of some 3,000 pages of documents, much of it relating to the laser enrichment of uranium support a concern that has long existed that documents might be distributed to the homes of private individuals.

This interpretation is refuted by the Iraqi side, which claims that research staff sometimes may bring home papers from their work places. On our side, we cannot help but think that the case might not be isolated and that such placements of documents is deliberate to make discovery difficult and to seek to shield documents by placing them in private homes.

Any further sign of the concealment of documents would be serious. The Iraqi side committed itself at our recent talks to encourage persons to accept access also to private sites. There can be no sanctuaries for proscribed items, activities or documents. A denial of prompt access to any site would be a very serious matter.

Find Persons to Give Credible Information: A List of Personnel

When Iraq claims that tangible evidence in the form of documents is not available, it ought at least to find individuals, engineers, scientists and managers to testify about their experience. Large weapons programs are moved and managed by people. Interviews with individuals who may have worked in programs in the past may fill blank spots in our knowledge and understanding. It could also be useful to learn that they are now employed in peaceful sectors. These were the reasons why UNMOVIC asked for a list of such persons, in accordance with resolution 1441.

Some 400 names for all biological and chemical weapons programs as well as their missile programs were provided by the Iraqi side. This can be compared to over 3,500 names of people associated with those past weapons programs that UNSCOM either interviewed in the 1990s or knew from documents and other sources. At my recent meeting in Baghdad, the Iraqi side committed itself to supplementing the list and some 80 additional names have been provided.

Allow Information Through Credible Interviews

In the past, much valuable information came from interviews. There were also cases in which the interviewee was clearly intimidated by the presence of and interruption by Iraqi officials. This was the background of Resolution 1441's provision for a right for UNMOVIC and the IAEA to hold private interviews "in the mode or location" of our choice, in Baghdad or even abroad.

To date, 11 individuals were asked for interviews in Baghdad by us. The replies have invariably been that the individual will only speak at Iraq's monitoring directorate or, at any rate, in the presence of an Iraqi official. This could be due to a wish on the part of the invited to have evidence that they have not said anything that the authorities did not wish them to say.

Last time I am doing this for your benifit Riff. Now as for hordes of WMD themselves ready to be launched in a half hour or whatever you will have to ask Bush himself as I know nothing about that save that he did have that capibility at one time. Here I have shown you (for the third or fourth time) that he never gave up his programs but rather hid them. Why would he hide them Riff? Could it be that he was thinking of continuing production once the US had left the area? And why would he do that Riff? Maybe to intimidate his nieghbors (who had very small third and fourth rate militaries) with his very large third rate military and a few Chemical or Biological weapons?

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cut and paste all you want--but still no wmd--show me the wmd--what was he gonna launch in 1 hour that was gonna reach london--only chemical weapon saddam had was a fart--and iraq got invaded for oil, reconstruction contracts and to make israel safe. Save your document mumbo jumbo.

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let me just make on point untill i read the rest of teh arctile

david kay is NOT an independant observer. the grop that he leads is the Iraq survey group. it is made up of mainly american specialists, that took over the search from the US military. this is not some impartial UN team or anything. so everything they say are baised, the only way for the search to have open would have to had the UN take over immediately and take charge of the WMD hunt. this is an american group specifically looking for weapons to justify the war. its not like they can come back with an answer, uh, no, we didnt find anything guys.

one other thing, you cannot read a few words in isolation of reality. if teh US thinks the UN resolution is the word of god, maybe they should respond to why they keep vetoing resolutions against isreal? or why there was no resolution against the US when they funnel weapons to terrorists in afganistan, or iran, or iraq? where did all the UN resolutions against the USs secret wars go? if the US is going to cite UN resolution as the undeniable truth why dont they join the international criminal court? or other international projects? because it seems the US likes the UN resolutions when they need it for PR, but when its against isreal, or when it hampers their style its not imporant. and of course, when you want to send weapons to terrorists and dictators, teh best way to avoid a UN resolution is to do it in secret right?

so what i am saying, is that IF iraq was treated the same as the US, there would have been a resolution against the US for sending weapons to afganistan. thus when the US sent weapons to iraq later, it would have beer justification for invastion and occupation too if read literally. the truth is that an undeclared lab that is completly empty of WMDs is NOT a reasonable justification for war. else every nation could be invaded.

Requires Iraq to declare, destroy, remove, or render harmless under UN or IAEA supervision and not to use, develop, construct, or acquire all chemical and

biological weapons

this is really the important part.

if they were not making WMDs you cannot invade them. simple that. EVEN if they had intent to make WMDs later, you cannot invade a sovereign nation. else the US could have been invaded several times already.

even if they have empty labs that isn teh same has having a huge WMD stockpile. its just not. when saddam was gassing iranians in teh 80s the CIA gave him intelligene information on iranian front lines so he could gas them better. if the US really felt WMDs were so bad, that would have been the time to complain to the UN. but they actually helped him, so they are just as guilty in the US of WMDs as him.

in 2003, any decent country will have labs and industrial capabilites to make chemicals. empty labs cannot justify war on every third world nation. even a high school lab can make simple toxic chemicals.

so if iraq has no WMDs, and all they have is empty labs and even if they dont tell the UN they have empty labs, that cannot be reasonably grounds for war. the US has dont much worse and has not been cited by resolution or invaded.

kay says things like

Dr. Kay said his group had found signs that Iraq was working hard to develop longer range and more effective missiles

well duh, working to develop missles? which country isnt? and there were no missles built. no missles half built. no warheads laying around. just the intent to develop the technolgy, which can never be isolated away from teh many other applications of military technology.

all the crimes are of intent. you cannot invade and start a war because of intent. there has to be the proof that something was imminent. that they started teh actions to kill large numbers of people. otherwise you are claiming that you can predict that intent of their development of some common technology. the world cannot operate that way.

kays report is a magic ball saying that they were obviously bad guys, and we think that they were working on the same stuff as everyone else, adn they wanted to have weapons when nobody was looking, and eventually, not yet, but maybe in a really long time when nobody was looking, they can make the weapons that we have, adn just like us, they could be capable of using them- although saddam had sat in iraq for 12 years doing nothing after he had been defeated- he was a survivor not a suicide bomber.

the reality of iraq is so far away from a reasonable justification for war its pathetic. they had a much more ethical and strong case on humanitarian grounds which they ignored untill the WMDS didnt appear.

SirRiff

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I've heard how much controversy there is around her rescue, but whether it was a valiant rescue fighting off evil iraqis or whether the media exaggerated it all, I think a movie about it is kinda dumb. Then again, I think it'd be cool to watch a movie about my life....but no one else would, my life is boring. But I wouldn't want facts exaggerated in regards to this if I were in her shoes.

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cut and paste all you want--but still no wmd--show me the wmd--what was he gonna launch in 1 hour that was gonna reach london--only chemical weapon saddam had was a fart--and iraq got invaded for oil, reconstruction contracts and to make israel safe.  Save your document mumbo jumbo.

Pretty strong statement. Back it up. Prove to me that there was no WMD or material in Iraq and that there is not now. Otherwise do some research.

MORE MUMBO JUMBO LOL

BTW, if you read this full report you will see why Bush and the rest of the planet was led to believe that he did indeed have WMD. I know you won't as nothing will get in the way of your unfounded opinions (Mass Jewish Anti Muslim Conspiracy as an example) but at least you could maybe make us a drawing or something while us big people discuss this matter using the evidence we can bring to light.

"Document Mumobo Jumbo"?????? Well then, guess you lose this argument by making that statement as documents mean nothing to you. It's a fact the US is in Iraq and that's that. No supporting or challenging documents are worth a thing to you so the fact they are there means you have lost.. Scince documents such as Geneva Convention , UN law, UN resolutions are all considered "Mumbo Jumbo" to you; C YA

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david kay is NOT an independant observer. the grop that he leads is the Iraq survey group. it is made up of mainly american specialists, that took over the search from the US military. this is not some impartial UN team or anything. so everything they say are baised, the only way for the search to have open would have to had the UN take over immediately and take charge of the WMD hunt. this is an american group specifically looking for weapons to justify the war. its not like they can come back with an answer, uh, no, we didnt find anything guys.

Well Riff, once again the US is not playing your game. Their intent is not to vindicate their actions but rather to secure the country so that they can leave. This is the priority for them. For anti Bush types their priority is proving Bush wrong and so the two are on totally different playing feilds. If I remember right the anti Bush types were talking a few months ago how evidence was going to be planted and all. As you can see, it has not been. The search is done in a methodial scientific manner by an accredited UN former weapons inspector. And yes, if he did come back with that answer then this would be over and impeachment would probably begin.

one other thing, you cannot read a few words in isolation of reality. if teh US thinks the UN resolution is the word of god, maybe they should respond to why they keep vetoing resolutions against isreal? or why there was no resolution against the US when they funnel weapons to terrorists in afganistan, or iran, or iraq? where did all the UN resolutions against the USs secret wars go? if the US is going to cite UN resolution as the undeniable truth why dont they join the international criminal court? or other international projects? because it seems the US likes the UN resolutions when they need it for PR, but when its against isreal, or when it hampers their style its not imporant. and of course, when you want to send weapons to terrorists and dictators, teh best way to avoid a UN resolution is to do it in secret right?

Don't try to side track this discussion. That is a whole other thread Riff.

so what i am saying, is that IF iraq was treated the same as the US, there would have been a resolution against the US for sending weapons to afganistan. thus when the US sent weapons to iraq later, it would have beer justification for invastion and occupation too if read literally. the truth is that an undeclared lab that is completly empty of WMDs is NOT a reasonable justification for war. else every nation could be invaded.

Read the report before you trap off Riff. I have also included another for you. It is not an empty lab here and there but a whole undeclared infastructure devoted to producing WMD and their delivery systems. Tell me Riff, if Kay ventured into Canada what would he find? Answer, not one hundredth the amount of shit he is finding there so don't try to tell us all that "poor innocent Saddam" was being picked on for no reason.

well duh, working to develop missles? which country isnt? and there were no missles built. no missles half built. no warheads laying around. just the intent to develop the technolgy, which can never be isolated away from teh many other applications of military technology.

all the crimes are of intent. you cannot invade and start a war because of intent. there has to be the proof that something was imminent. that they started teh actions to kill large numbers of people. otherwise you are claiming that you can predict that intent of their development of some common technology. the world cannot operate that way.

kays report is a magic ball saying that they were obviously bad guys, and we think that they were working on the same stuff as everyone else, adn they wanted to have weapons when nobody was looking, and eventually, not yet, but maybe in a really long time when nobody was looking, they can make the weapons that we have, adn just like us, they could be capable of using them- although saddam had sat in iraq for 12 years doing nothing after he had been defeated- he was a survivor not a suicide bomber.

the reality of iraq is so far away from a reasonable justification for war its pathetic. they had a much more ethical and strong case on humanitarian grounds which they ignored untill the WMDS didnt appear.

Actually this report was touted by the anti war types to great heights because of the fact no WMD were found. If anything, for an argument of the US being wrong it is more valusable to the anti war types. As for the ridiculous statement that Saddam sat and did nothing for 12 years you forget that he hid, opprosed, mis directed, interferred, threatened, continued to add to his deception in front of the world that he had no WMD or Materials. I ask my question again Riff scince you didn't answer it before; Why did he do this and is this in keeping with the spirit of the UN resolutions against him?

Here is Kay's more complete report. It has some intereresting comments.

FULL TEXT OF KAY'S REPORT

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I don't mean to spam the board here but it is a rather slow day and I think this post relevant to the turn this discussion has taken.

To say that Bush errently said there was WMD in Iraq may be true however it still remains to be seen. In the meantime though, I would have those who keep asking "Well, where is the WMDs?" to maybe direct their questions to people less busy than Bush is. The following rogues gallery is the Left. They were all privy to the same information as Bush. Please direct some of your mindless rhetoric to the likes of Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Jaques Chirac, Senator Kennedy and such. I know that they would rather forget that they had made these comments, but might be able to tell you more than Bush as they contiually say he is doing a rotten job. I take that to mean they know more than he.

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to re

build his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

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We need to clarify something important here:

The adminstration made it clear time after time that the then proposed action in Iraq was intended to dismantle Saddam's WMD programs BEFORE the threat became imminent. Bush never suggested that the United States was in danger of being attacked at any time. The source of the "45 minute capability" was a British intelligence report.

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American Special Forces went in to rescue an American female P.O.W. who was badly injured. They went locked and loaded for bear and were live linked (and recorded) to higher Command (as usual).

Those of you who have read any SAS account of Hostage situations will recognize the tactics used by the SOF. So where's the beef?

She was being held in hostile territory and they went in for a live retrieval. They should have gone in expecting the Tooth Fairy to hand her over? Get real!

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Jessica Lynch is no hero and should be smacked for disrespecting the brave souls who put their lives on the line to save her sorry ass.

Book deals? Made for TV movies? I makes me wanna puke. The real unsung hero here is Pfc. Patrick Miller who, by the way, doesn't think he did anything special. Miller, who was driving the last truck in the convoy, and who hadn't shot a rifle in 9 months singlehandedly took out a handful of Iraqi scum in an attempt to protect his injured collegues before he and the others were captured.

Full Story:

Jessica Lynch's Hero

I wonder is Lynch would be happier if SF just ploped her back down right where they found her.

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She has admitted over and over she is no hero. Heck, if any normal Joe or Jane can make something off this war then let em! Lord knows everybody else is. As for Miller, I'll bet he gets a bit more recognition now. Hell, 7 Iraqi sodiers?! That's Sgt York material.

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Hawks who wanted a war first shut down the public imagination using propaganda on the media. They convinced people that there is no other means of preventing invasion, or conquering terrorism, or even defending human rights. When information is scarce, imagination is easy to control. As intelligence gathering and diplomacy are conducted in secret, we seldom discover — until it is too late — how plausible the alternatives may be. The intelligence our governments released suggested that Saddam Hussein was immune to diplomacy or negotiation. Faced with such any enemy, what would we do, the hawks asked? And our responses felt timid beside the clanking rigorous of war. Had the options been as limited as the western warlords and their bards suggested this might have been true. But, as many of us suspected at the time, we were lied to. Most of the lies are now familiar, there appear to have been no weapons of mass destruction and no evidence to suggest that, as President Bush claimed in March, Saddam had "trained and financed... al-Qaeda". Bush and Blair, as their courtship of the president of Uzbekistan reveals, appear to possess no genuine concern for the human rights of foreigners. But a further, and even graver, set of lies is only now beginning to come to light. Even if all the claims Bush and Blair made about their enemies and their motives had been true, and all their objectives had been legal and just, there may still have been no need to go to war. Saddam proposed to give Bush and Blair almost everything they wanted before a shot had been fired. Our governments appear both to have withheld this information from the public and to have lied to us about the possibilities for diplomacy. As for the Kay report its just document mumbo jumbo. He is looking for a gold egg. He didn’t find it and he’s claiming that since he didn’t find it, does not mean it didn’t exist. The hen could have laid it and we have to search all of Iraq to find it. It took $300 million to come to that assessment. The famous aluminum tubes touted in the UN presentation by Mr. Powell are being used as sewerage pipes by Iraqis. Human waste is flowing through them today that in itself speak volume about Iraq’s nuclear program. What else do we have, a lil pipe buried under a rose bush in the backyard of an Iraqi scientist. Webster’s English dictionary has more proof of Iraq’s weapons program than Kay’s report. Both are filled with words written on paper without any proof.

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Bush and Blair, as their courtship of the president of Uzbekistan reveals, appear to possess no genuine concern for the human rights of foreigners. But a further, and even graver, set of lies is only now beginning to come to light. Even if all the claims Bush and Blair made about their enemies and their motives had been true, and all their objectives had been legal and just, there may still have been no need to go to war. Saddam proposed to give Bush and Blair almost everything they wanted before a shot had been fired. Our governments appear both to have withheld this information from the public and to have lied to us about the possibilities for diplomacy.

I think that you are refering to a rumor mill article that appeared in some leftist rag. Here is another or maybe it's the source of yours.

PROVIDE YOUR OWN DAMM LINKS

As for the Kay report its just document mumbo jumbo. He is looking for a gold egg. He didn’t find it and he’s claiming that since he didn’t find it, does not mean it didn’t exist. The hen could have laid it and we have to search all of Iraq to find it. It took $300 million to come to that assessment. The famous aluminum tubes touted in the UN presentation by Mr. Powell are being used as sewerage pipes by Iraqis. Human waste is flowing through them today that in itself speak volume about Iraq’s nuclear program. What else do we have, a lil pipe buried under a rose bush in the backyard of an Iraqi scientist. Webster’s English dictionary has more proof of Iraq’s weapons program than Kay’s report. Both are filled with words written on paper without any proof.

Ever wonder why Kay never spent a lot of time checking those tubes out? Because they know they mean squat! Here you are playing tiddly winks on a chess board while the whole world is passing you by. I have to admit that even I fell for the WMD thing last year, but the first clue should have been when they started talking about "Regieme Change" rather than "Disarmament." Here you are saying Kay this, and Kay that and how he has not found WMDs when any thinking human knows that he is not looking for them. Rather he is documenting all the nasty stuff so that it can be secured and cleared out in preparation for a US pullout in a year or two. He doesn't need the UN for that.

In short seeding Democracy was the objective. To make a prosperous Iraq a symbol of what democracy can bring to the Middle East sets a positive example of a good life so that a potential terrorist would think twice before blowing himself up for Allah. As well, a society where there are rights and freedoms is hardly the type of environment where a Religious Militent is bred. Pretty simple concept. WMD and non compliance and whatever were aids to portray Saddam as the bad guy that he was. It could have been Syria but Assad really didn't have a thirty year history of being an evil dictator like Saddam as he just took over from his dead Pop. He didn't threaten his neighbors, gas his own, flaunt UN regulations after starving his own people for a decade. Saddam was the perfect patsy for Democracy Seeding. Now I'm not absolutely postive but I'm willing to bet that if he had any WMD and had come clean he still would have been in the same postition he is today. Human Rights violations perhaps? A demand for him and half his goons to give themselves up for trial at the Hague? Whatever the case you can be sure that his reaction to any or all scenarios was a given but all had a foregone conclusion.

As for Kay, he has found lots. He gave a gereral briefing on what he has found and it is a lot more than Saddam was allowed to have or had declared. Also far more than a widget in a scientists back yard. Read the Voodoo Mumbo Jumbo CK, it won't bite. May even get that gray pudding bubbling in that head. Before you dismiss him out of hand you may want to read his report which also strengthens the anti war crowds claim that Saddam did not have WMD. From how I interpret his report it is fairly well balanced. It is however, "Document Mumbo Jumb" and I know that sends you for the garlic string but try to make a cross from chopsticks or something and read it.

"We have discovered dozens of W.M.D.-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002," the statement said, referring to weapons of mass destruction.

Note that he did not say "We found a rusted tube in a back yard somewhere." No, he had discovered "DOZENS OF RELATED ACTIVITIES AND SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF EQUIPMENT."

This portion of the report was declasified, when he gives his full report in a year you might get to peek at what the actual item breakdown is for all the little things that make up the whole are but for now he is getting a job done. Not providing reading entertainment for you.

Dr. Kay said his group had found signs that Iraq was working hard to develop longer range and more effective missiles, including some that could travel up to 1,000 kilometers, or about 600 miles, far beyond the 150-kilometer range restriction imposed on Baghdad by the United Nations. The group has also come across evidence of clandestine attempts in recent years to obtain ballistic missile technology from North Korea..

He didn't say that Iraq was thinking abuot long range missiles but rather "WERE WORKING HARD" to develop same.

In the biological weapons area, which was one of the areas of early focus by the Iraq Survey Group, Dr. Kay said there was evidence that Iraq's intelligence service was involved in retaining a covert research and development capacity. He added that debriefings of former Iraqi intelligence officials had "begun to unravel a clandestine network of laboratories and facilities within the security service apparatus."

These efforts were well hidden by Mr. Hussein's government, Dr. Kay reported. He noted that precursor biological agents are small and easily hidden, and that one example of an item that should have been reported last year was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B., from which a biological agent can be produced. This vial was hidden in the home of an Iraqi biological weapons scientist. Such remnants of biological agents could have allowed the Iraqis to produce biological weapons later, Dr. Kay observed

This is not a thing found in somebody's backyard but rather a whole infastructure set up to decieve.

BTW, he has looked at 10 weapons sites and still has 120 to go. The chances of finding WMD are still there but at this point we all know that they never presented the threat Bush would have us believe they did. Who knows, maybe he thought he was telling the truth as Saddam certainly gave all appearances of an Evil Dictator who was hidding something.

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3 reasons got iraq invaded. Reconstruction contracts, oil and security for Israel.

I'll consider the last one because achieving general security, including that of isreal, was the principle aim here. However, you have absolutely no evidence to support the first two claims.

I've said it before, here it is again:

Just because a company [Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.] has close ties to the federal government and the Pentagon, generates profit associated with Iraqi reconstruction, and is a recipient of federal pork spending does not mean the war was predicated on corporate greed. To believe so is supposition and not evidence of malfeasance.

Oil? humor me, ok? Aside from it's geostrategical implications, how is oil connected here?

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American Special Forces went in to rescue an American female P.O.W. who was badly injured. They went locked and loaded for bear and were live linked (and recorded) to higher Command (as usual).

Those of you who have read any SAS account of Hostage situations will recognize the tactics used by the SOF. So where's the beef?

She was being held in hostile territory and they went in for a live retrieval. They should have gone in expecting the Tooth Fairy to hand her over? Get real!

It's not the manner of the resuce, but its portrayal and subsequent propaganda around Lynch (ie. emptied her weapon at the attackers, was beaten and raped etc. etc.) that's the issue here. the U.S. wanted a rallying point, a symbol and a hero so they tried to create one (What could be more perfect than a white, blonde haired, blue-eyed, Mid-Western, All-American girl fighting off a gang of swarth Ay-rabs single-handed?) Too bad for them the story was bogus.

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