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BTW, Jews live in every middle eastern country and have no problems. They are respected amoung others and live and walk about Arabs peacefully.

People don't like Zionists because of what they have done in Palestine. I say its a water war and its hard to judge people from here. I think they should build desalinization plants instead of bombs, but I know a lot more about this than you do.

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BTW, Jews live in every middle eastern country and have no problems. They are respected amoung others and live and walk about Arabs peacefully.

People don't like Zionists because of what they have done in Palestine. I say its a water war and its hard to judge people from here. I think they should build desalinization plants instead of bombs, but I know a lot more about this than you do.

A water war, are you sure it's not about land?

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Insert dumbass icon here with an arrow. DUMBASS^

I think people aren't responding to you since any proof that we bring forward is simply a CIA or government conspiracy. I don't try to debate drunk homeless people in the streets, and I'm not about to waste more of my life debating you except for the entertainment value.

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CanadianBlue:I think people aren't responding to you since any proof that we bring forward is simply a CIA or government conspiracy

Not true. It can be shown to be outright lies. It doesn't matter who is doing it. All of the Popular Mechanics and 911Myths attempts to debunk 911 conspiracy theories can be shown to be based on lies. Thats all that matters.

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All of the Popular Mechanics and 911Myths attempts to debunk 911 conspiracy theories can be shown to be based on lies. Thats all that matters.
Shown to be lies? Try again. All you have done is make the assertion over and over again that they are lies without providing any proof at all. CB is right. Your unwillingness to even acknowledge the counter arguments provided by numerous posters has probably earned you space on their ignore list.

If you want a discussion then why don't to start by directly addressing the points that other posters have brought up. Including:

1) Why are the 'truthies' still alive? A gov't that was willing to kill 3000 of its own citizens should not have any problem killing off a few rabble rousers in ways that did not arise suspicion.

2) Why hasn't at least one person come forward and admitted to participating in the cover up? Look at your answer to 1) before answering this.

3) Why is collapsing into its footprint 'unnatural'? Can you provide one example of a building that did something other than collapse into its footprint when there is no outside force? The consensus in the scientific community seems to be that there is nothing unnatural about the collapse.

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Riverwind, PN will probably just give you a link to a video, and say its all part of the conspiracy.

PN believes that FEMA Death Camps are currently in operation, and the term "anti-semitism" is used for thought control.

Apparently Civil Engineer's don't know what their talking about, same with NIST, Popular Mechanics, etc. I read a debate between PM and the truthies, and it really showed how fallable the truthies argument's are.

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Riverwind:1) Why are the 'truthies' still alive? A gov't that was willing to kill 3000 of its own citizens should not have any problem killing off a few rabble rousers in ways that did not arise suspicion.

2) Why hasn't at least one person come forward and admitted to participating in the cover up? Look at your answer to 1) before answering this.

3) Why is collapsing into its footprint 'unnatural'? Can you provide one example of a building that did something other than collapse into its footprint when there is no outside force? The consensus in the scientific community seems to be that there is nothing unnatural about the collapse.

(1) Too many of us. Well over 30 % of the populous thinks its an inside job. You can't kill off all those high level people like senators, congressmen, Phd engineers, generals, majors and ex heads of intelligence agencies without people noticing and the comming to the conclusion that 911 was an inside job due to the very active cover up.

(2) Lots and lots have come out to say it was an inside job, most notably two independent people that were in the room with Cheney have come out to say he gave the stand down order in their presence and recently air craft controllers have come out to say they tracked the planes to target.

(3) For a building to collapse into its own footprint all sides & supports would have to collapse simultaneously - unlikely with asymetrical damage. There is no consensus to say this was natural. Your consensus is people like the American Society of Civil Engineers which probably did not contact a single member before releasing their position. In actuality there are many more engineers and scientists that say this was an inside job than actually support the details of the official version in a scientific way.

I have issued a challenge for anyone to present an arguement from Popular Mechanics or 911Myths that tries to debunk the 911 conspiracies. I can show any point to be misleading or an outright lie. If this is true, why all the lying to make the official version sound more plausible. Even the building construction itself has been mis represented in the first addition of PM to debunk conspiracy theories.

If you believe wtc7 collapsed like that from fires you are working with the secret police. wtc7 videos

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Not true. It can be shown to be outright lies. It doesn't matter who is doing it. All of the Popular Mechanics and 911Myths attempts to debunk 911 conspiracy theories can be shown to be based on lies. Thats all that matters.

I agree that there are inconsistancies, but just like the Aliens and Kennedy and the Moon Landing, the debate will go on, but will not be solved. Many become obcessed, like you PolyNewbie. The interesting thing is these events did not happen one hundred or hundreds of years ago, they happened in many people's lifetime. Still, the answer will not come forth, and eventually these events will pass from memory, except for the Aliens.

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(2) Lots and lots have come out to say it was an inside job, most notably two independent people that were in the room with Cheney have come out to say he gave the stand down order in their presence and recently air craft controllers have come out to say they tracked the planes to target.

Some people who will remain nameless for some reason.

(1) Too many of us. Well over 30 % of the populous thinks its an inside job. You can't kill off all those high level people like senators, congressmen, Phd engineers, generals, majors and ex heads of intelligence agencies without people noticing and the comming to the conclusion that 911 was an inside job due to the very active cover up.

Are you sure thats 30% who believe it was an inside job, or 30% who believe the administration may have known beforehand their could have been an attack.

(3) For a building to collapse into its own footprint all sides & supports would have to collapse simultaneously - unlikely with asymetrical damage. There is no consensus to say this was natural. Your consensus is people like the American Society of Civil Engineers which probably did not contact a single member before releasing their position. In actuality there are many more engineers and scientists that say this was an inside job than actually support the details of the official version in a scientific way.

Then why do I read about so many civil engineers who agree with the theory then. As well your an electrical engineer, your simply making observation's from watching a video, not from doing any real research.

If you believe wtc7 collapsed like that from fires you are working with the secret police. wtc7 videos

Actually the video I posted showed what an explosion looks like when it brings down a building. That theory has been debunked.

I agree that there are inconsistancies, but just like the Aliens and Kennedy and the Moon Landing, the debate will go on, but will not be solved. Many become obcessed, like you PolyNewbie. The interesting thing is these events did not happen one hundred or hundreds of years ago, they happened in many people's lifetime. Still, the answer will not come forth, and eventually these events will pass from memory, except for the Aliens.

Strangely enough some of the people who PN uses to argue his point believe that alien's exist.

As for the secret police, what kind of crappy secret police doesn't try to get rid of the people who made the truthiness websites?

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CanadianBlue:Some people who will remain nameless for some reason.

Maybe the air craft controllers but the guys who heard the stand down order didn't.

Canadian Blue:Are you sure thats 30% who believe it was an inside job, or 30% who believe the administration may have known beforehand their could have been an attack.

no its well over 30 % that say MIHOP, another 40 % say LIHOP.

CanadianBlue:Actually the video I posted showed what an explosion looks like when it brings down a building. That theory has been debunked.

Yes it looks like a demolition. Good point. What exploded in wtc7 ?

Canadian Blue:Then why do I read about so many civil engineers who agree with the theory then

Where ? The NIST report doesn't investigate any of the collapses and I can show how Popular Mechanics and others are lying or misrepresenting the truth movement.

CanadianBlue:Strangely enough some of the people who PN uses to argue his point believe that alien's exist.

No they don't. Thats another idiotic statement. What does controlled demolition of wtc7 have to do with aliens ? Are you now trying to bring aliens into this ?

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Yes it looks like a demolition. Good point. What exploded in wtc7 ?

No it doesn't, any idiot can see the difference between the controlled demolition and the way WTC7 went down. Obviously, you are making up your own facts instead of facing the truth.

Maybe the air craft controllers but the guys who heard the stand down order didn't.

So you can't give us any REAL names, which really doesn't surprise me.

no its well over 30 % that say MIHOP, another 40 % say LIHOP.

For some reason you can't provide the poll.

Where ? The NIST report doesn't investigate any of the collapses and I can show how Popular Mechanics and others are lying or misrepresenting the truth movement.

You've said that quite a few times, and haven't really substantiated any claims yet. So far you have only said that NIST and PM are agents of the government.

No they don't. Thats another idiotic statement. What does controlled demolition of wtc7 have to do with aliens ? Are you now trying to bring aliens into this ?

I'm simply pointing out how alot of the crazies who believe that the government, the Jews, Israel, the Illuminati, Wal Mart, etc. believe in alot of other crazy theories as well. Hell, theirs more proof that alien's exist then their is that the government planned the WTC attacks.

You brought the alien's into this, since alot of the people you use to back up your point also believe in alien's, and some other crazy sh%t.

I don't know, I think you've been reading too much Lyndon Larouche dude.

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CanadianBlue:No it doesn't, any idiot can see the difference between the controlled demolition and the way WTC7 went down. Obviously, you are making up your own facts instead of facing the truth.

Name one difference and I will post a link of a demolitions expert saying wtc7 was demolished for each valid point you make. See Videos of wtc7 collapse

For some reason you can't provide the poll.

see Summary Of Multiple Polls

You've said that quite a few times, and haven't really substantiated any claims yet. So far you have only said that NIST and PM are agents of the government.

NIST is the government - the "n" stands for "national", Michael Chertoff is a first cousin of Bush the PM writer Benjamin Chertoff.

CanadianBlue:I'm simply pointing out how alot of the crazies who believe that the government, the Jews, Israel, the Illuminati, Wal Mart, etc. believe in alot of other crazy theories as well. Hell, theirs more proof that alien's exist then their is that the government planned the WTC attacks.

What does WalMart, Aliens and the Jews have to do with this ?

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(3) For a building to collapse into its own footprint all sides & supports would have to collapse simultaneously - unlikely with asymetrical damage.
Actually the reverse is true. It would take some very careful planning to get a building to topple over because once you blow one support the other supports fail immediately because of the extra load. As a result, you will almost always see a near symmetrical collapse even if you only blew out some of the supports. If you look at the videos of one of the towers collapsing you will see the top actually starting to tip over but eventually tipping back and collapsing straight down. This is physical proof of the phenomea I just described.
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Michael Hardner:Poly - that is a complete falsehood. Even the worst 'truthies' stopped spreading that one a long time ago.

He is actually the cousion of Michael Chertoff, and this was debunked by the 911 "debunkers" and leter found out to be true quite recently. I erred in saying he was Bushes cousin. He is in fact Michael Chertoffs first cousin. I will find a link for this for you. This should further discredit your beliefs.

Riverwind:Actually the reverse is true. It would take some very careful planning to get a building to topple over because once you blow one support the other supports fail immediately because of the extra load. As a result, you will almost always see a near symmetrical collapse even if you only blew out some of the supports. If you look at the videos of one of the towers collapsing you will see the top actually starting to tip over but eventually tipping back and collapsing straight down. This is physical proof of the phenomea I just described.

So you are saying that it is perfectly natural for buildings to collapse straight down into their own footprint ?

Do you know of any scientist that agrees with that because I can list a pile that dissagree with that. Jeff King, Stephen Jones, Jim Hoffman, David Hawkings, come to mind immediately.

The twin towers did not collapse like a conventional controlled demolition. They were obviously demolished but not in a conventional way. We know they were demolished because most of the concrete was atomized and many large parts of the building were ejected like arrows and penetrated other buildings. Parts were blown upward during the collapses, but again, this demolition (wtc1 &2) was not conventional.

Add that to the fact that there is no single characteristic or group of characteristics of the wtc7 collapse that is not exactly identical to a controlled demolition.

Riverwind:If you look at the videos of one of the towers collapsing you will see the top actually starting to tip over but eventually tipping back and collapsing straight down. This is physical proof of the phenomea I just described.

Many people use this as more proof of CD citing conservation of momentum as the logic - things do not simply stop rotating like that. The top part of the building was starting to rotate as it was toplling. Another force had to set it right.

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So you are saying that it is perfectly natural for buildings to collapse straight down into their own footprint ?
Yes. Because that is way these buildings are designed. Read it for yourself:

http://911physics.atspace.com/Pages/Debunk...ths/WTCDemo.htm

The partial collapse of Ronan Point in 1968 alerted the UK's construction industry to the problem of progressive collapse. An explosion in an apartment on the 18th floor, in the Southeast corner of the 22-storey tower block blew out the non-loadbearing walls of the kitchen and the living room and the external loadbearing wall of the living room. The upper floor slab fell on to the floor below initiating the progressive collapse of one corner of the whole block as can be seen in Figure 1. The cause of the explosion was leakage of town gas from a defective connection on a cooker, which was probably ignited by a struck match (HMSO, 1968)....

Looks to us like engineers have been concerned about progressive collapse for a very long time.

There you go. A real life example where asymmetric damage caused a building to collapse into its footprint. That proves that the progressive collapse theory is not only possible it is quite reasonable. Once you combine that with the other facts - like jetliners crashing into the buildings - the only reasonable conclusion is that progressive collapse is the correct explanation.
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He is actually the cousion of Michael Chertoff, and this was debunked by the 911 "debunkers" and leter found out to be true quite recently. I erred in saying he was Bushes cousin. He is in fact Michael Chertoffs first cousin. I will find a link for this for you. This should further discredit your beliefs.

Yes, find the link. What happened was Chris Bollyn telephoned Benjamin Chertoff's mother and reported that she said they were first cousins.

Here's what Chertoff says:

Here's the story, as best as I know: I'm not related to Michael Chertoff, at least in any way I can figure out. We might be distant relatives, 15 times removed, but then again, so might you and I. Bottom line is I've never met him, never communicated with him, and nobody I know in my family has ever met or communicated with him.

As for what my mom said: When Chertoff was nominated to be head of homeland security it was the first I'd heard of him, and the same for my family (and, FYI, we'd already sent the 9/11 issue to the press by then!). My dad and I thought there might be some distant relation. When Chris Bollyn called and asked my mom if there was a relation (introducing himself as only "Chris"), she said "they might be distant cousins."

Bollyn stands by his story that she says they were first cousins. It's still being reported as such.

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Name one difference and I will post a link of a demolitions expert saying wtc7 was demolished for each valid point you make. See Videos of wtc7 collapse

For some reason most your expert's seem crazy and mentally unbalanced, I have no idea why. Probably because you share alot in common with them.

He is actually the cousion of Michael Chertoff, and this was debunked by the 911 "debunkers" and leter found out to be true quite recently. I erred in saying he was Bushes cousin. He is in fact Michael Chertoffs first cousin. I will find a link for this for you. This should further discredit your beliefs.

You still haven't found the link eh, that's a huge surprise.

Raise any point in PM's arguement or 911Myths arguement and I will prove its a lie.

All of them.

No they don't. Thats another idiotic statement. What does controlled demolition of wtc7 have to do with aliens ? Are you now trying to bring aliens into this ?

I'm pointing out how must of the people you use to express your point's believe in other wacko idea's. Don't worry alot of smart people believe in wacko idea's, just look at the Nazi's.

What does WalMart, Aliens and the Jews have to do with this ?

Somehow, whenever somebody talks about a new world order, or a conspiracy it always seems to lead to the Jew's.

Don't worry PN, people tried to find somebody to blame for the Black Plague as well, and the Depression, and all of the problem's in the world.

You know you make alot of chicken noises [i'd call a therapist and check to see if you have a mental disorder if I was making chicken noises for no reason at all], I'd think you'd only do it to get attention on here and that's it.

By the way, do you sleep with a gun under your pillow, because you never know when the federal agent's are gonna come get you? Seriously, when people are this paranoid, I always am scared that their gonna do something like this guy. Honestly if you believe the government is killing it's own people, I wonder if they would ever kill cop's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_Incident

PN answer the question, since the US is apparently killing it's own citizen's, would you support American's killing police officer's and federal agent's due to this?

Answer the above, since as you stated the American government is killing it's own citizen's, do you support people killing police officer's and federal agent's in order to avoid going to death camps?

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CanadianBlue:For some reason most your expert's seem crazy and mentally unbalanced, I have no idea why. Probably because you share alot in common with them.

So you consider Benjamin Chertoff as a more reliable source than the links to scientists, bigadier generals, Pentagon colonels, congessmen, senators, heads of FBI, headsof CIA and Phd engineers. You think they are all crazy because Benjamin Chertoff from Popular Mechanics says something different than they do.

:blink:

re: Picking arguements from Popular Mechanics and 911Myths, CnadaianBlue says "All of them."

I say you pick whatever you think is their best arguement and I will show you how its a lie or a straw man arguement. I'm not going to go through all of them with you.

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911 myths takes accusations of conspiracy and analyzes them. They provide a counter-point to the unchallenged claims of truthers. Sometimes the truthers are correct - there isn't a satisfactory explanation.

But people like Williams and Chertoff are not 'sources', poly, they're trying to bring sources to the story.

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