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"It seems like a little show of force is what has led to the problem.

Don't suppose you have any idea of finding out what the British were doing before the Iranians took them in? I mean why start now to find out what it is you are expressing an opinion on right Figleaf? Its easier to just shoot off at the mouth and express an opinion based on nothing other then your being too lazy to find out what precipitated this?

Not that you care about facts, but the British were patrolling waters in Iraq territory as per a UN resolution. They were NOT in Iranian waters nor were they showing any force. You shot off at the mouth as usual without finding out the facts.

The Iranians abducted them as a show of force not the other way around. The Iranians abducted them one day before Iran was scheduled to discuss why it will tell the UN and the world to kiss its butt over its decision to continue to develop nuclear weapons. The timing of the abduction was pure political grand-standing.

It also is a not so subtle message to the U.S. The U.S. arrested Iranian Revolutionary Guard inside Iraq organizing and engaging in terrorist acts and now Iran feels it should answer that with an arrest of its own.

The problem is Iran went into Iraq waters to abduct the 15 British.

Its childish bafoon like behaviour and muscle flexing and of course only you Figleaf would twist it around to have the British who were abducted flexing muscle.

You and Polynewbie need to get a hotel room and get it over and done with.

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It's hard to believe, given today's GPS technology and satelite surveillance that it can't be determined and demonstrated exactly were the sailors were.

True...but it is one of those things where neither side ever agreed to where the demarkation line is...so Iran's idea of being in Iranian waters differs from that of the British. But either way, as noted (see link), this is a narrow waterway where one might not have many choices as to where to travel to avoid sandbars and such. In Iranian waters one second...Iraqi waters the other.

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Never break the neutrality of a port or place, but never consider as neutral any place from whence an attack is allowed to be made.

---Admiral Horatio Nelson

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“In point of fact, Iran's borders are mostly the result of a similar process"

I can’t create quote.

Despite this - border between Iraq and Iran - is a border of conflicts because of river Szatt el Arab . It caused that every country allege that British soldiers were on the territory of ….

“Your question invokes a fallacy -- presuming that democratic countries would be created by the policy(s) at issue.

Undoubtedly democratic institutions are preferable to arbitrary or autocratic ones anywhere. Can they be created by violating international law? Can the be created by propping up questionable regimes? Can they be 'created' at all?”

“Can they be 'created' at all?”

Very important question !

May be yes may be not .

For example - Japan, Korea and Germany wasn’t democratic countries.

Japan and Germany was forced after war …………..

Undoubtedly it’s a process – very sophisticated process. It is possible that this culture – is a world of authoritarian rules and real democracy isn’t possible.

But it’s the bad message for the World.

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Undoubtedly democratic institutions are preferable to arbitrary or autocratic ones anywhere. Can they be created by violating international law? Can the be created by propping up questionable regimes? Can they be 'created' at all?

At last - I create a quote.

Ridiculous.

In my countryside is about 21 P.M.

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Likely the Iranians sensed an opportunity to score some hostages and took it. I think that if they would be smart to treat their prisoners in an acceptable manner, so that they can shift the blame back to Britain or the U.S. should things go south. They know they are walking a fine line, so I imagine they are going to be careful not to cross it unless they are ready to face the consequences.

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Who had begun the war - Iraq versus Iran ?

Iraq, using U.S. supplied weaponry.

Incorrect: The Iraq military pre-invasion was made up primarily of French and Russian military equipment...not American. Iran however still has quite a lot of US equipment from the Shah days. But they have spare parts problems, naturally. Iraq today is armed with...guess what? Soviet era Russian weapons just like before. Saddam's old gear...just like minor league hockey...lol.

http://www.acepilots.com/mt/2006/07/07/old...new-iraqi-army/

Iraq did indeed 'start' the Iran Iraq war...but only after months of cross-border fighting and Iranian calls for Saddam to be ousted. Saddam wasn't in the mood for their crap, more or less...and he attacked. The US assistance at this point came as a result of Iran holding American hostages for over a year after the Islamic Revolution...you might recall. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

The most recent war in Iraq was started by the United States.

Well...yes and no. The no-fly war had been going on for literally years with Saddam taking pot shots at UN aircraft and such. Also, had Saddam not invaded Kuwait, he'd still be there to this day as opposed to dead on the gallows. Out of sight...out of mind.

...what do any of you think China and Russia would do if we attacked Iran?

Anything but a war with the USA...stamp feet a lot and sound decisive. China wants business as usual as it needs this period of prosperity to work out and create a proper market economy before they either pollute themselves or overpopulate themselves right out of their own home. Russia likes stirring the pot...has for centuries...for the want of money if nothing else. But Russia would secretly view Iran being dropped a few notches as a good thing...weapon sales aside. Radical Islam is a problem there, too.

For some expert opinions that you may trust more than mine...I suggest the Iranian Defence Military Forum. They talk about this stuff alot. Good pics from the Iran-Iraq war, too. Rare stuff.

http://irandefence.net/

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The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.

---Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Good to see someone with strategic studies background pipe up here.
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It seems like a little show of force is what has led to the problem.

Don't suppose you have any idea of finding out what the British were doing before the Iranians took them in? I mean why start now to find out what it is you are expressing an opinion on right Figleaf?

Could you please explain why you have chosen to use that particular quote to lead into this particular diatribe? What in that comment makes you think I am uninformed about the stated purpose of the British personel? They have said they were inspecting a cargo vessel. Do you know different or something?

Its easier to just shoot off at the mouth and express an opinion based on nothing other then your being too lazy to find out what precipitated this?

Careful ... your sputtering, garbled hatred-of-all-things-Figleaf might lead you to violate the forum rules.

Not that you care about facts, but the British were patrolling waters in Iraq territory as per a UN resolution.

Gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

That is, indeed, what the British spokesprocess says. Iran says they were in Iranian waters.

In fact it is quite possible that they were in disputed waters, because Saddam repudiated a treaty that had fixed the border.

They were NOT in Iranian waters nor were they showing any force.

That's an idiotic comment, for three reasons. First, you don't know where they were. Second, you seem to assume I was refering exclusively to the British having a show of force. Third, in fact, what the British were doing was a show of force, but possibly an authorized one depending on where they actually were. Stopping civilian ships usually involves a show of force, y'know.

You shot off at the mouth as usual without finding out the facts.

Ironically, this precisely reflects my opinion of your posting efforts.

And that's about as much effort as someone of your personality and faculties deserves. Bye.

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nice backed up quotes dogonporch, way to produce nothing but conjecture fig. as for the topic, at hand. Why on god's green earth would the Iranian government take British personel is beyond me. Britain has been reducing and pulling out of troops out of Iraq for what 2 months now? The last thing they need is the Ire of Europe. And if they get real dumb about it and turn European sentiment against them, there will be a war in Iran. And it will not end well for Iran's government or its people for that matter.

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Maybe these Brits should be made an example of and killed.

Isnt that what bush would do?

Bring Em On

Oh...

BTW YAWWWNNNN

I love the silly things people say when they've lost the debate. What'd they say on the old 'Family Feud'?

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I don't wanna end up, after the boys have gone, a little off my head playing racquetball against the fireplace.

---Richard Dawson

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...nice backed up quotes dogonporch

Good to see someone with strategic studies background pipe up here.

I'd like to thank the members of the Academy....lol

Cheers to you both...

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If you have lived, take thankfully the past.

---John Dryden

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Well here we have someone who claims to be 19 years old, a soldier, and spends 23 hours a day on a forum pretending to be someone it isnt.

And on top of it all. Is totally absorbed with a forum poster named BayLee, most definitly needs help

Well now I'm truely baffled. Who? Did what? With a what??? Is this like one of those Troy McClure situations?

Anyways...your mystery troll isn't me...so your quest continues.

(Canadian Blue brought me up to speed...thanks CB)

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We can continue to try and clean up the gutters all over the world and spend all of our resources looking at just the dirty spots and trying to make them clean. Or we can lift our eyes up and look into the skies and move forward in an evolutionary way.

---Edwin Eugene "Buzz" Aldrin

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The US has been kidnapping Iranian military officials for months. They have also been going in and conducting terrorist missions inside Iran.

I think we should be able to have threads on world issues unpolluted by loonies and their weird assed conspiracy theories.

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The accuracy of those reports may / may not be an issue. However the Captain of the Cornwall stated emphatically they were NOT in Iraq waters.

No he didn't.

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I'm the kind who thinks it wise to talk first but be ready to pack a heavy punch. If Britain decided to pack a heavy punch, I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with them on this one. No doubt.

It might be time to teach Iran a gentle lesson by eliminating its navy. This isn't the first time they have caused trouble, and I believe if the Brits put their mind to it Iran's navy will be, to coin a phrase "an underwater navy" within a matter of days.

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I'm the kind who thinks it wise to talk first but be ready to pack a heavy punch. If Britain decided to pack a heavy punch, I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with them on this one. No doubt.

It might be time to teach Iran a gentle lesson by eliminating its navy. This isn't the first time they have caused trouble, and I believe if the Brits put their mind to it Iran's navy will be, to coin a phrase "an underwater navy" within a matter of days.

I think that would be a fair solution if they did not turn over the troops.

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Well I noticed the state of Iran has advised us all as of yesterday that those British navy personnel have confessed to illegally entering Iranian waters. Yes Figleaf was right. Gosh Figleaf you are right again! Your intelligence and infight never ceases to amaze me.

Of course my own version is based on my own evil Zionist lie. Polynewby and Figgy have already exposed this conspiracy and I will never be the same again but just for fun let me be confused and wrong and state the following Zionist lies;

i-the British troops were in Iraqi waters enforcing a UN resolution when they were forced at gun point by Iranian Revolutionary Guard into custody

ii-these personnel were on HMS Cornwall,the flagship of the coalition-Iraqi force which is pursuing a UN Resolution mandate to patrol Iraqi territorial waters in the northern Gulf to combat smuggling

iii-the British personnel, had just finished searching a merchant ship

iv-Iran has been providing weapons and financial aid to local militia in Southern Iraq to assist them in attacking British forces in Southern Iraq

v-the British were doing what they were supposed to do- inspect the merchant ship to see if it was smuggling weapons to be used by terrorist militias

vi-the British personnel were in two inflatable boats when they were intercepted by Iranian vessels at gunpoint in Iraqi waters

vii-this was a routine search in Iraqi waters and no different then the mission of Canadian and US and other NATO naval vessels who also patrol these waters to enfore the UN resolution

Other then Figleaf and Polynewby the rest of the world is wrong and confused about this.

The Iranians are not angry at the Americans for arresting Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Iraq. The Iranians are not upset British intelligence and their SAS unit were able in the past to intercept previous gun smuggling operations from Iran into Southern Iraq along the coastal waters.

Iran is not inciting Shiite terrorists in Southern Iraq.

Iran is not trying to blackmail Britain at a time when they are feeling pressured about sanctions because of their nuclear activities.

The Iranians are not trying to retaliate against the US for arresting Iranian Revolutionary Guard in Iraq.

The Iranians are not interested in Southern Iraq and sabatoging the oil fields in Southern Iraq.

The Iranian government is a peaceloving misunderstood victimized innocent regime.

Iran is not suffering an economic meltdown and does not need to create political events to sidetrack its people from the internal collapse of its economy.

No its the fault of the British. Figleaf is right. He is always right. The British are evil and the Iranians were just trying to defend themselves from those evil British sob's who should sail back to Plymouth and mind their own business.

Figleaf and Polyinsaturatedfatsnewby are right. It's the fault of the US involved in a conspiracy to destroy Iran and take over the world.

I admit it. Figleaf and Polynewby have exposed the truth. It was me and my Zionist friends who took over the media, Hollywood and the banks and so are now able to control the US and British militaries and force them to do this in our effort to conquer the world and make everyone give up pork and feel guilty for no reason and eat lots of chicken soup and donate to Jewish senior citizen homes in Miami and New York.

There. I have confessed.

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Imperial/IMF Forces charged with spying

I wonder if many posters think this would actually be ethical- the detainies being imperial / IMF forces.

Rue:As for Figleaf, I am sure he and Polynewbie are going to fly to Tehran to offer their advise and services in defeating the US and Britain and the evil world conspiracy these two Zionist lackee nations are fermenting

You would need to increase your IQ by 50 points to figure out what I would do.

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The accuracy of those reports may / may not be an issue. However the Captain of the Cornwall stated emphatically they were NOT in Iraq waters.

No he didn't.

Hmmm ... I watched an interview in my hotel room in London - and I am sure it was the Captain they were interviewing - and yes he did say that.

The truth of which I do not know - but I actually did see and hear it stated.

Interesting to watch this develop - T&P's for them and the families.

Borg

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Blair is using Thatcherspeak war talk. He went to some pains to say, twice in the same speech, that Iran ought "not underestimate the seriousness with which we take this". That's politicaleze for "we're going to blow up something if you don't let them go".

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Well I noticed the state of Iran has advised us all as of yesterday that those British navy personnel have confessed to illegally entering Iranian waters. Yes Figleaf was right. Gosh Figleaf you are right again! Your intelligence and infight never ceases to amaze me.

What. the. fuc*. are. you. blithering. about.?

Of course my own version is based on my own evil Zionist lie. Polynewby and Figgy have already exposed this conspiracy and I will never be the same again but just for fun let me be confused and wrong and state the following Zionist lies;

Reallly, What. the. fuc*. are. you. blithering. about???

i-the British troops were in Iraqi waters enforcing a UN resolution when they were forced at gun point by Iranian Revolutionary Guard into custody

One: how do you know that?

Two: the waters are disputed, so what position are you taking in that dispute to decide what waters they were in?

iv-Iran has been providing weapons and financial aid to local militia in Southern Iraq to assist them in attacking British forces in Southern Iraq

Evidence?

No its the fault of the British. Figleaf is right. He is always right.

If you were less deficient, you would realize that I have not, in fact, asserted that I believe one side or the other. I am keeping an open mind.

If you won't at least read my comments before spewing vitriol, why don't you just bugger off?

It's the fault of the US involved in a conspiracy to destroy Iran and take over the world.

Well, I don't know about conspiracy, but we do know that the US getting into Iraq was the result of a deliberate, underhanded, corrupt, false, coordinated campaign.

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