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But...hey...Figleaf and Blackdog can sleep easy at night knowing they hold the same views as PolyNewbie.

Instead of braying like a Grand Canyon beast of burden, maybe you'd like to answer the point I've raised --

How do YOU know Iran is wrong about where the British sailors were found?

Don't you think that's relevant information or something? Duh.

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But...hey...Figleaf and Blackdog can sleep easy at night knowing they hold the same views as PolyNewbie.

Instead of braying like a Grand Canyon beast of burden, maybe you'd like to answer the point I've raised --

How do YOU know Iran is wrong about where the British sailors were found?

Don't you think that's relevant information or something? Duh.

Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

And you people are just revelling in it aren't you?

WAR WAR WAR! Kill em ALL! Nuke the SOBs! No -- Let ISRAEL do it!! (*wink wink nudge nuge -- who'd yah think us warmongers meant!?)

It is currently NOT known by ANYONE on this board whether or not the British were in Iranian waters.

Iran is currently under threat by the very same countries who said they were part of "the axis of evil".

Iran has EVERY RIGHT to be suspicious of a British military vessel sniffing around.

Friggin warmongers want a world war. They FRIGGIN' WANT it.

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

And you people are just revelling in it aren't you?

WAR WAR WAR! Kill em ALL! Nuke the SOBs! No -- Let ISRAEL do it!! (*wink wink nudge nuge -- who'd yah think us warmongers meant!?)

It is currently NOT known by ANYONE on this board whether or not the British were in Iranian waters.

Iran is currently under threat by the very same countries who said they were part of "the axis of evil".

Iran has EVERY RIGHT to be suspicious of a British military vessel sniffing around.

Friggin warmongers want a world war. They FRIGGIN' WANT it.

Take a sedative and calm down, nobody is saying they want a world war, what id like to see is the Nuclear facilities bombed into rubble and the flow of goods and money into Iraq to stop. Call me bias, but I got a personal stake in the matter. My 21 year old brother is there right now. If he is killed by Iranian supplied goods, then yeah fuck them.

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

And you people are just revelling in it aren't you?

WAR WAR WAR! Kill em ALL! Nuke the SOBs! No -- Let ISRAEL do it!! (*wink wink nudge nuge -- who'd yah think us warmongers meant!?)

It is currently NOT known by ANYONE on this board whether or not the British were in Iranian waters.

Iran is currently under threat by the very same countries who said they were part of "the axis of evil".

Iran has EVERY RIGHT to be suspicious of a British military vessel sniffing around.

Friggin warmongers want a world war. They FRIGGIN' WANT it.

Iran has every right to be suspicious. THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO KIDNAP SAILORS!!!! There was a lot of other actions the Iranians could have taken, "you are in Iranian territorial waters, leave!" If Iran doesn't want a war, maybe they should have left the sailors alone. Britain doesn't have to bomb/invade iran, just sending an armada into Iranian waters and weighing anchor in the waters/harbours until the prisoners are released. This method has proven successful throughout history in providing a peaceful solution to a tense situation.

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

Ah, don't be so silly.

If the sailors were in Iranian territorial waters, Iran was perfectly within it's rights to take them into custody. That's not kidnappping, it's self-defense. I sure as hell hope Canada would take Iranian sailors into custody if they were boarding civilian ships off Halifax harbor.

And BTW, attacking civilian shipping in someone elses territorial waters is an act of war.

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

Ah, don't be so silly.

If the sailors were in Iranian territorial waters, Iran was perfectly within it's rights to take them into custody. That's not kidnappping, it's self-defense. I sure as hell hope Canada would take Iranian sailors into custody if they were boarding civilian ships off Halifax harbor.

And BTW, attacking civilian shipping in someone elses territorial waters is an act of war.

I'm quite sure the U.S. coast guard has boarded drug boats in Canadian waters, should we detain the Americans? I'm quite sure if Iran wanted to stop smuggled goods from entering Canada, I'd say thanks. The Brits weren't in an Iranian harbor either.

If Iran wanted to defend itself, it could have easily dispatched a destroyer to shoo off the British ship.

Did Canada ever detain any Russian/US sailors who most definetely operated in our territory? The worst we've ever done is seize a Spanish trawler and sent those guys back home. Should we start throwing Danish sailors in jail over the disputed Hans Island? Denmark has sent warships up there.

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I'm quite sure the U.S. coast guard has boarded drug boats in Canadian waters, should we detain the Americans?

Did we give them permission? If not, then absolutely we should do whatever seems appropriate to stop them.

The Brits weren't in an Iranian harbor either.

Where were they then, if you know so much? They were near the mouth of the Arvand River, is what I heard. Ever heard of it? Do you know even one shred of fact about the Arvand River?

If Iran wanted to defend itself, it could have easily dispatched a destroyer to shoo off the British ship.

So what? Who are you to dictate how they defend themselves (if the British were in their waters)?

Did Canada ever detain any Russian/US sailors who most definetely operated in our territory?

If we didn't, we should have.

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Did we give them permission? If not, then absolutely we should do whatever seems appropriate to stop them.

....If we didn't, we should have.

Canada usually grants permission after the fact as stern enforcement of sovereignty. Forgiveness is always easier to get than permission, especially from Canada. Now where did that Soviet Delta III go?

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Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

And you people are just revelling in it aren't you?

WAR WAR WAR! Kill em ALL! Nuke the SOBs! No -- Let ISRAEL do it!! (*wink wink nudge nuge -- who'd yah think us warmongers meant!?)

It is currently NOT known by ANYONE on this board whether or not the British were in Iranian waters.

Iran is currently under threat by the very same countries who said they were part of "the axis of evil".

Iran has EVERY RIGHT to be suspicious of a British military vessel sniffing around.

Friggin warmongers want a world war. They FRIGGIN' WANT it.

Interesting response.

It almost sounds like you think it is folks over here who want it.

What makes you believe the other side does not want it?

I have worked with the U.S. and Brit navies upon the odd time. They are scrupulous in their care when they "walk the line". I have also flown the line in a couple of countries with borders that were sensitive. We were scrupulous. Even the other side was the same.

But interestingly enough - and this will get me scalded - both sides had white skin and blue eyes. The commie pilots were playful but never willing to cross over - and neither were we. Accidental incursions did happen (both sides) and when it did happen, whoever make that incursion got out of there like the house was on fire. No one wanted to really get down and dirty - too costly.

My guy tells me that the Brits were walking the line as they knew it to be. No proof - just experience at this stage. Most folks do not know that the JAG is a big player in the U.S. Navy. He sits in on ops plans for a reason. I suspect the same for the Brits. I seriously doubt the Brits would have intentionally violated an international treaty / border line. Especially if Iranian gunboats were nearby - and the Brits would have seen them - either on radar or visually. This is why I believe the Brits were not in violation - it was a dash and grab by the Iranians - otherwise those gunboats could have been / might have been / would have been fired upon.

On the other hand I do know that there are political players on the other side who would gladly start something big.

These guys (all military players both sides) are simply an extension of the politicians who tell them what to do - and I can assure you that no military man or woman wants war. But if it is war they will do their damndest to win. And I can tell you it will not be pretty and it will spread to other countries. Perhaps, no likely, even here.

One thing for sure - life is cheap to those folk - and not so to us. Hence the dance which is about to take place.

There may well be a blockade coming - but if it does, those prisoners will be rough used. More than 24 hours has passed so we may very well start to see statements read to the public by the prisoners - they will of course have been pre-written. But the prisoners have passed that 24 hour mark and are now free to co-operate as they see fit to protect themselves and no one will think worse of them for it.

Questions Drea - if Iran starts something big - for whatever reason - are you going to blame Bush and Blair - or would you perhaps think that Iran had as great a responsibility to protect world peace?

More for you Drea - Does Iran have even a small bit of blame in this Drea? Could they not have done as other countries such as Canada has done and told them to leave? Or perhaps complained to NATO / the UN?

Somehow I think you will find a way to blame Bush and Blair - even if B&B step back and do nothing and the prisoners are executed - which by the way is not likely to happen for at least a month - if at all.

It is a two way street and even the country that has "been violated has international rules of engagement to follow". Iran did not do this. Are they innocent Drea - or do they have at least a small part of this blame?

I look forward to your responses - they might be quite telling.

In the meantime - If things go badly there will be action - if things go well there will be no action. Just have to wait and see.

Take a valium Drea - it is out of your hands.

Borg

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cnn

this says that they were no where near your river you stated and in Iraqi waters. That little map they give is most helpful. They were operating in the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab, not the Arvand river. Borders are also defined too.

So what? Who are you to dictate how they defend themselves (if the British were in their waters)?

You seem to dictate at how the West should or shouldn't act, I thought I'd try it on for size.

It's interesting that you would risk war with a superpower just because of a few boats operating in our waters, it happens and we can't do much about it. All Canada has done concerning this is sent out some warships to Hans Island like the Danish have in return because it's disputed, no shots fired no prisoners detained. Why can't Iran do the same? Should Canada and Denmark start taking each other's sailors as prisoners?

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cnn

this says that they were no where near your river you stated and in Iraqi waters. That little map they give is most helpful. They were operating in the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab, not the Arvand river.

:lol: :lol: :lol: This is priceless.

FYI, oh-one-who-mouths-off-in-absense-of-knowledge, the Shatt al-Arab IS the Arvand River.

It's interesting that you would risk war with a superpower just because of a few boats operating in our waters, it happens and we can't do much about it.

You think that Canada enforcing it's territorial sovereignty would lead to a war with the United States? What a terrible thing to think of our wonderful allies!

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Instead of braying like a Grand Canyon beast of burden, maybe you'd like to answer the point I've raised --

How do YOU know Iran is wrong about where the British sailors were found?

Don't you think that's relevant information or something? Duh.

Such class. I think Mr Borg sums up the situation far better than I ever could in the time I have tonight.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

---Dr. Carl Sagan

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cnn

this says that they were no where near your river you stated and in Iraqi waters. That little map they give is most helpful. They were operating in the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab, not the Arvand river.

:lol: :lol: :lol: This is priceless.

FYI, oh-one-who-mouths-off-in-absense-of-knowledge, the Shatt al-Arab IS the Arvand River.

It's interesting that you would risk war with a superpower just because of a few boats operating in our waters, it happens and we can't do much about it.

You think that Canada enforcing it's territorial sovereignty would lead to a war with the United States? What a terrible thing to think of our wonderful allies!

If you want to nickel and dime then you can call it the Arvandrud. That's the first i've heard it referred to as Arvand. Bravo, do you want a medal?

What about Soviet/Russian subs under the ice, we have claim all the way up to the North Pole. What about Denmark and Hans Island, that's a similar situation as what's going on out there concerning disputed boundaries? Why haven't we arrested Danish sailors from Danish warships concerning this? Denmark and Canada have both popped up flags on the island, and both nations have sent warships out there. We can enforce our sovereignty without kidnapping, that is why Canada is superior to Iran. That is why we in Canada can say without conviction that Iran is dead wrong concerning this. Come on lets here your opinion concerning us and Denmark or is there a double standard?

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My 21 year old brother is there right now. If he is killed by Iranian supplied goods, then yeah fuck them.

Perhaps your 21 year old brother should've thought twice before he signed away his life in exchange for the benefits that army provides.

Military is a dangerous place, people get hurt and killed there. I wonder if half the recruits that so eagerly hop into our army know what the hell they're doing. I also wonder if those recruits even for a second realize that an army isnt fun and games and people can lose their limbs and life there.

I guess some people who join the army start off in such bad economic conditions that joining the army is an only "sure way" to improve their station in life, which makes them little better than common mercenaries really. They're willing to kill other people for money and benefits for their own life.

I wonder if anyone is dumb enough to still believe that the army is fighting for the well-being of common American people and not for the benefit of a select elite few.

Either way, if you join an army voluntarily, follow illegal orders (you know, like the whole invasion of Iraq), kill innocent people as "collateral damage" because your own well-being concerns you more than the well-being of people on the other end of the rifle then you're no better than the fascist troops and deserve a fate no different from theirs.

Its kind of funny actually. I have had several friends in the Marines and they all swore that they're free-thinking men above everything else and that they would never execute an illegal order. Yet, funnily enough, when the war on Iraq was declared they shipped off without so much as a protest.

Yes, I know we treat ourselves as special and choose to follow the international laws and conventions only when we think they suit us, but thats what I hate about our country the most - this belief that we're somehow special and superior to others around us.

Anyways, I'm not an armchair theorist. I moved out of US and I haven't had a cause to regret it since. Eventually the leadership will change, and I might come back to friends and family who chose to stay behind, but I am afraid that at this pace there wont be much to come back to.

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AshNazg:

Most of your post concentrates on slagging the US military, and it's soldiers. and mentions little of those that truely controls that dept.

And you pat yourself on the back for leaving the US, leaving the problem behind, perhaps to come back when things change. when in reality your lack of action is no better than those soldiers who called them selfs free thinkers, Running is not the answer, many of americans have stayed and stood thier ground and have challanged americans direction. That does make you an armchair theorist.

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AshNazg:

Most of your post concentrates on slagging the US military, and it's soldiers. and mentions little of those that truely controls that dept.

And you pat yourself on the back for leaving the US, leaving the problem behind, perhaps to come back when things change. when in reality your lack of action is no better than those soldiers who called them selfs free thinkers, Running is not the answer, many of americans have stayed and stood thier ground and have challanged americans direction. That does make you an armchair theorist.

Fair enough, the leaders are guilty - that much is obvious. The soldiers are guilty too for following illegal orders. You cant absolve them of all responsibility.

As to the fact that I fled the country..true, that was an act of cowardice when viewed under a certain angle. However, I despaired after seeing Bush reelected for the second term after wrecking our country so thoroughly in his first and lost all faith in our country or its people. I don't see any things changing just yet though.

For a real change we need to break away from this one party system and elect people who don't regurgitate the same agenda with a couple of cosmetic changes.

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Interesting response.

It almost sounds like you think it is folks over here who want it.

What makes you believe the other side does not want it?

[...]

In the meantime - If things go badly there will be action - if things go well there will be no action. Just have to wait and see.

Borg

Excellent post. I wish the opposing side could see through their self hate long enough to make as considered and well thought out posts as this.

It's quite likely that the soldiers were in disputed waters, thereby making both sides right, or at least not wrong. Canada has the same disputes, having made the largest land grab in history by extending a 200 mile limit to its territorial waters in a treaty not ratified by all members of the UN. In fact, Canada often claims it must "protect its northern regions", yet no one asks why that is. If intl law were clear about it, there would be no need to "protect it"; what Canada is actually doing is enforcing a claim that is functionally non-binding.

However, and it's a big however, when one takes prisoners in disputed waters, and then threatens to try them for espionage, that is way way up the escalation ladder. There are a whack of ways to end an intrusion; the most common being to shoo the perceived intruder away and resolve the incident later. This is direct confrontation by Iran.

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AshNazg:

Fair enough, the leaders are guilty - that much is obvious. The soldiers are guilty too for following illegal orders. You cant absolve them of all responsibility.

According to your reasoning, then every american citizen must bear the same responsibility, as they allowed thier government to carry out thier actions, just like each american soldier did..Why just pin this on two groups, the government and military, do they not serve the american people. or are you blaming them ( the Military) because they did not stand up and inform the government that this was an illegal action and they would not take part... I mean lets face it, how many out there thinks that the world would be a better place with Sadam in power in Iraq.

As to the fact that I fled the country..true, that was an act of cowardice when viewed under a certain angle

"Your words not mine", my piont was rather that you hold those in the US military to a higher standard than you set for yourself, you blame them for following illegal orders, not being free thinking men, when you yourself are just as guilty on all pionts.

However, I despaired after seeing Bush reelected for the second term after wrecking our country so thoroughly in his first and lost all faith in our country or its people. I don't see any things changing just yet though.

Thats pretty serious when you've lost all faith in your country or it's people, i say that because i could not fathom denouncing my country because of one man, or one political party....take the liberals under critien for instance.... I'm curious to know why you've chosen this form of protest "left the country"? whats the next step in your protest ?

For a real change we need to break away from this one party system and elect people who don't regurgitate the same agenda with a couple of cosmetic changes

For anything to change it must come from within, watching from the sidelines is not going to make that happen. And one person can make a difference

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According to your reasoning, then every american citizen must bear the same responsibility, as they allowed thier government to carry out thier actions, just like each american soldier did..Why just pin this on two groups, the government and military, do they not serve the american people. or are you blaming them ( the Military) because they did not stand up and inform the government that this was an illegal action and they would not take part... I mean lets face it, how many out there thinks that the world would be a better place with Sadam in power in Iraq.

Why not? That was the purpose behind the collective punishment of Iraqis for 10 years. The people of iraq were held responsible for something entirely out of their control... as a matter of international policy,

With Americans they are actually responsible, as they do have a political voice. In principle it would make much more sense to hold the american people responsible for the actions of their leaders, more so than a people living in a police state.

Andrew

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Fair enough, the leaders are guilty - that much is obvious. The soldiers are guilty too for following illegal orders. You cant absolve them of all responsibility.

Only if they directly killed civilian's on purpose. Otherwise, the soldier's are generally innocent.

Soldier's don't decide where to go, that's the governments job, and unfortunately the government is made up of the people.

For a real change we need to break away from this one party system and elect people who don't regurgitate the same agenda with a couple of cosmetic changes.

Democrats won the mid term election's.

I always cringe when people blame the troop's. Unless a soldier kill's civilian's they are innocent.

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According to your reasoning, then every american citizen must bear the same responsibility, as they allowed thier government to carry out thier actions, just like each american soldier did..Why just pin this on two groups, the government and military, do they not serve the american people. or are you blaming them ( the Military) because they did not stand up and inform the government that this was an illegal action and they would not take part...

You are right, american citizens DO bear the same responsibility. The beauty of democracy is that people are responsible for whatever they elect in the office, be it a benevolent person or a thug-murderer.

"Your words not mine", my piont was rather that you hold those in the US military to a higher standard than you set for yourself, you blame them for following illegal orders, not being free thinking men, when you yourself are just as guilty on all pionts.

Thats pretty serious when you've lost all faith in your country or it's people, i say that because i could not fathom denouncing my country because of one man, or one political party....take the liberals under critien for instance.... I'm curious to know why you've chosen this form of protest "left the country"? whats the next step in your protest ?

I merely hate seeing my own tax money go towards financing things that I do not want to support. Right now I am a citizen of a country that neither supports nor opposes the war in Iraq and is in fact quite distant from all the political affairs. I am doing something that I enjoy doing here and the money that I pay in tax go towards improving life quality of the people in this country, as opposed to destroying the quality of life of people in another country.

For anything to change it must come from within, watching from the sidelines is not going to make that happen. And one person can make a difference

I think thats wishful thinking at this point. Besides, like I already said I have lost faith that anything can change here, I think we've slid down too far to stop or reverse the trend now. I want my children to have a better future than they'd have in US 10 years from now, hence my flight.

I mean lets face it, how many out there thinks that the world would be a better place with Sadam in power in Iraq.

Why, I think so. Saddam, for all his faults, knew how to handle Iraq. Clearly, the present command does not. They are not ready for democracy and all that our soldiers have achieved in there is destabilizing the country and stirring up a hornets nest. Democracy, fancy thing that is, is supposed to come from within, it cannot be "planted" forcefully, and it amazes me that people still think so.

Be assured, our leadership knows that damn well and they did not even for a second consider going to Iraq to plant democracy there. In fact, if not for the mercantile reasons, Iraq would be left alone, because with Saddam in power it was a secular goverment that did whatever it can to suppress terrorists. In other words, Iraq with Saddam in it was a far safer place for the world in general than Iraq with Americans in it.

Only if they directly killed civilian's on purpose. Otherwise, the soldier's are generally innocent.

Soldier's don't decide where to go, that's the governments job, and unfortunately the government is made up of the people.

That would be true in general, but when the whole war is illegal in the first place? Thats going into the grey zone.

The basic question is this: if a troop commander orders his troops to slaughter or torture 50 iraqi prisoners, can the soldiers disobey the commander? Yes, because the order is illegal. They will stand trial and most likely be acquited.

Now, if you go to a larger scale: A government that is guilty of flagrant human right abuses, violating geneva conventions and wiping its ass with international laws orders soldiers to invade an innocent country under false premises (WMD search). Do the soldiers not have the MORAL and ETHICAL obligation to disobey the commanders orders and not go anywhere.

Defending our soldiers in this case is like defending SS troops who invaded countries during WW II. Sure, they acted like sheep and went along with the crowd, but that should-not absolve them of responsibility of killing millions of people in the name of an illegal cause.

Democrats won the mid term election's.

The problem with democrat vs republican debate is that both sides support basically the same bills. Sure, there is a little difference here and there, but in general if you look at the history of the bills that got passed in Congress they have equal support from dems and republicans. So really, what is the difference. Hence why I said its a one party system.

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AshNazg:

You are right, american citizens DO bear the same responsibility. The beauty of democracy is that people are responsible for whatever they elect in the office, be it a benevolent person or a thug-murderer.

Then your orginal post should have placed the blame on the American people and not just it's government and it's soldiers.

I merely hate seeing my own tax money go towards financing things that I do not want to support. Right now I am a citizen of a country that neither supports nor opposes the war in Iraq and is in fact quite distant from all the political affairs. I am doing something that I enjoy doing here and the money that I pay in tax go towards improving life quality of the people in this country, as opposed to destroying the quality of life of people in another country.

So i take it you've denouced your US citizenship, or you have dual citizenship, an act in itself is a form of protest or action...more than most have taken, That being said one would be hard pressed to find a country that finances or supports everything that everyone of it's citizens believes in. unless one is willing to become global citizen.

I think thats wishful thinking at this point. Besides, like I already said I have lost faith that anything can change here, I think we've slid down too far to stop or reverse the trend now. I want my children to have a better future than they'd have in US 10 years from now, hence my flight.

I want to be clear, i'm not judging you, your doing what you think is right for you and your family, much like those US soldiers you've talked about, painting them all with one brush is not for us to decide.

Why, I think so. Saddam, for all his faults, knew how to handle Iraq. Clearly, the present command does not. They are not ready for democracy and all that our soldiers have achieved in there is destabilizing the country and stirring up a hornets nest. Democracy, fancy thing that is, is supposed to come from within, it cannot be "planted" forcefully, and it amazes me that people still think so.

Yes, he knew how to rule thru fear, and intimidation...but then again so can anyone..It takes a person with some leadership skills to run a democracy. Are you saying that all the Iraqis or for that matter most middle eastern countries are not capable of becoming or are ready to become democracies and need to be ruled with an iron fist enforced by threats of violence....if not then how should they be governed ?

Even some of the middle eastern nations have admitted that Sadam and his band of thugs were not exactly a stabilizing force within the middle east...Kuwait, and iran would be examples of that...

So how is the west or for that matter all democractic countries to deal with these countries, do we bury our heads in the sand and let them have free rein to do as they please....and hope that some form of humanity developes soon.

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