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However, there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold. I'm not entirely convinced it is geopolitical (i.e., peoples' gravitating to Hezbollah because they stand up to Israel) and I'm not entirely convinced it's social (i.e., the tradition whereby women in certain countries wear black shrouds from head to toe). But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion. There is something aggressive and angry and unforgiving about it. ...

all right, I've read your post, now I challenge you to defend it --- take this melange of vagueries and put some support for it -

there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold.

What aspects? and what is the something to which you refer?

But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion

I dare you to defend this bigotry - I submit it is pure prejudice - not even anything concrete to say, just this hateful, 'boy there's sumpin creepy about those Islamites'

I suggest you do some self reflection and find how you came to such dishonest opinions.

Isn't a dishonest opinion one that is presented as fact? IMV Liam's "opinion" is just that; an opinion.

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However, there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold. I'm not entirely convinced it is geopolitical (i.e., peoples' gravitating to Hezbollah because they stand up to Israel) and I'm not entirely convinced it's social (i.e., the tradition whereby women in certain countries wear black shrouds from head to toe). But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion. There is something aggressive and angry and unforgiving about it. ...

all right, I've read your post, now I challenge you to defend it --- take this melange of vagueries and put some support for it -

there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold.

What aspects? and what is the something to which you refer?

But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion

I dare you to defend this bigotry - I submit it is pure prejudice - not even anything concrete to say, just this hateful, 'boy there's sumpin creepy about those Islamites'

I suggest you do some self reflection and find how you came to such dishonest opinions.

Isn't a dishonest opinion one that is presented as fact? IMV Liam's "opinion" is just that; an opinion.

No, an opinion presented as fact is a dishonest fact. An opinion, held for one reason but being presented as held for another is a dishonest opinion - ie- (there was a time when the KKK defended it's existence saying it was defending white women from sexual assault - a lie from the start). I, in my definition of dishonest opinion, also include an opinion held but for no reason the holder can put into words or perhaps for reasons the holder admits to being unaware of (as in saying, 'there is just something about them) as also being dishonest.

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I think you're taking things a little too seriously. I reread Liam's statement and as far as I'm concerned, it's just an opinion. The only thing that could make it clearer is if he prefaced each sentence with "in my view" or "as I see it" etc.

EDIT: Liam also says "I'll admit to my own ignorance and biases" which tell me even more he is just relating his point of view. I really can't see anything dishonest in his post.

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I think you're taking things a little too seriously. I reread Liam's statement and as far as I'm concerned, it's just an opinion. The only thing that could make it clearer is if he prefaced each sentence with "in my view" or "as I see it" etc.

EDIT: Liam also says "I'll admit to my own ignorance and biases" which tell me even more he is just relating his point of view. I really can't see anything dishonest in his post.

ok, how do you arrive at an opinion? if it is an opinion based on experience, for example, it is my opinion that Brittany Spears is a terrible singer - that is honest and people can disagree about the quality of a shared experience

also - it is honest to admit your prejudices, as you note Liam did, but it doesn't make those prejudices honest opinions -- they are based on nothing, that is what prejudice means, to pre-judge --- to judge without facts - that is what I meant by dishonest opinion --

does that clear it up?

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Thanks for stepping in to defend me... I don't think my opnion is unfounded and, yes, I struggle with what I feel inside.

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with the extreme elements faith that promises 72 virgins to someone who is a martyr to his faith (yet does not have a central authority, like the papacy, to say that killing children or old women in a suicide bombing is not an honorable thing).

I have a problem with the extreme elements of a religion that wants to see me, a gay man, buried under a collapsed wall, crushed by stones, my head beaten in with rocks, my body dismembered. I have no illusions that certain Christianists are more forgiving, but I'd doubt many self-proclaimed "true followers" of Christ would topple a wall on me. Some might, but I'd live in fear for my life if confronted by an mob in an Islamic country. I can't even imagine that something like this could happen in a Christian-domitaed country or even Texas. Consider yourself lucky if you have the luxury of not having this fear.

I take issue with the extreme elements of a religion that routinely dehumanizes infidels and that subjugates women, that routinely spurns science and advancement.

But most of all, I tend to be mistrustful of a religion whose extreme elements refuse to acknowledge or admit that there is a valid separation between church and state, or that the rules of the mosque are not the rules of the courts, that the law as it applies to the heavenly realm is not the same as that which applies to the earthly realm.

I do not attribute these things to all Muslims. Not by a looooong shot. I work among Muslims and have no problem with them. But I take huge issue with the foaming-at-the-mouth Islamists. And I'm not at all cowed by accusations of bigotry when I say that I think Islamists represent a threat to western modernism.

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... I don't think my opnion is unfounded ...

sorry if you felt I was attacking you - the question remains, on what is your opinion founded?

all of those examples of horrendous extremism are legitimate reasons to object ot extremism -- but none of them is exclusive to Islam - and ALL of them can be applied to extremist sects in ALL the major religions

and so this

all right, I've read your post, now I challenge you to defend it --- take this melange of vagueries and put some support for it -

there is something about certain apsects Islam that allows a sinister mindset to take hold.

What aspects? and what is the something to which you refer?

But there is something anachronistic about Islam, something regressive, something easily manipulated by charlatans -- much more so than any other religion

I dare you to defend this bigotry - I submit it is pure prejudice - not even anything concrete to say, just this hateful, 'boy there's sumpin creepy about those Islamites'

remains

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I did not think you were attacking me -- I read your post as an attempt to suss out my train of thought. I took no offense at what you said. No worries.

You're right: I don't like extremists of any stripe, but other faiths seem to have some kind of control over the violence the most extreme members of their kind can unleash. Islam is the only faith I know of that can be manipulated and twisted so that people believe someone who blows up a bus or a market is destined for paradise. Yes, that is an extreme within the faith, but I have never heard leaders or teachers of any other religion advance those kinds of thoughts. Maybe Christianity held those kinds of beliefs during the crusades, but that's ancient history and no longer believed or practiced.

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... but other faiths seem to have some kind of control over the violence the most extreme members of their kind can unleash. Islam is the only faith I know of that can be manipulated and twisted so that people believe someone who blows up a bus or a market is destined for paradise. Yes, that is an extreme within the faith, but I have never heard leaders or teachers of any other religion advance those kinds of thoughts. Maybe Christianity held those kinds of beliefs during the crusades, but that's ancient history and no longer believed or practiced.

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any defense for it. Not only is there nothing in Islam as you seem to think but there are, to my awareness, more extremist Christian groups than Islamic. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed - you know, even GWB claims to have been put in office by God -- all violent hate-peddling criminals - all God-fearing Christians

and no, we need not go so far back in history as Martin Luther -

"One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther's antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht's orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: 'On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.' The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words 'of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'"
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... but other faiths seem to have some kind of control over the violence the most extreme members of their kind can unleash. Islam is the only faith I know of that can be manipulated and twisted so that people believe someone who blows up a bus or a market is destined for paradise. Yes, that is an extreme within the faith, but I have never heard leaders or teachers of any other religion advance those kinds of thoughts. Maybe Christianity held those kinds of beliefs during the crusades, but that's ancient history and no longer believed or practiced.

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any defense for it. Not only is there nothing in Islam as you seem to think but there are, to my awareness, more extremist Christian groups than Islamic. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed - you know, even GWB claims to have been put in office by God -- all violent hate-peddling criminals - all God-fearing Christians

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any source to back that up.

There are perhaps a handful of violent organizations that claim christianisty as their ethos while on the otherhand there are dozens and dozens of violent islamic oorganizations whose raison d'etre is religious.

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... but other faiths seem to have some kind of control over the violence the most extreme members of their kind can unleash. Islam is the only faith I know of that can be manipulated and twisted so that people believe someone who blows up a bus or a market is destined for paradise. Yes, that is an extreme within the faith, but I have never heard leaders or teachers of any other religion advance those kinds of thoughts. Maybe Christianity held those kinds of beliefs during the crusades, but that's ancient history and no longer believed or practiced.

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any defense for it. Not only is there nothing in Islam as you seem to think but there are, to my awareness, more extremist Christian groups than Islamic. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed - you know, even GWB claims to have been put in office by God -- all violent hate-peddling criminals - all God-fearing Christians

This, of course, is not true and you can not truly offer any source to back that up.

There are perhaps a handful of violent organizations that claim christianisty as their ethos while on the otherhand there are dozens and dozens of violent islamic oorganizations whose raison d'etre is religious.

I am completely bias against the Islamic Religion. However I am not completely Biased against people of Arab/Muslim decent. I think there is nothing peaceful about Islamic ideology, I think its being used like a weapon against the west. Religious fanatics aside, Theres hundreds if not thousands of people listening to these Imams and whats worse is people keep them in places of power. No, I believe that the Islamic religion is the poison of our time. And if we don't suck it out, its going to spread.

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Thanks for stepping in to defend me... I don't think my opnion is unfounded and, yes, I struggle with what I feel inside.

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with the extreme elements faith that promises 72 virgins to someone who is a martyr to his faith (yet does not have a central authority, like the papacy, to say that killing children or old women in a suicide bombing is not an honorable thing).

I have a problem with the extreme elements of a religion that wants to see me, a gay man, buried under a collapsed wall, crushed by stones, my head beaten in with rocks, my body dismembered. I have no illusions that certain Christianists are more forgiving, but I'd doubt many self-proclaimed "true followers" of Christ would topple a wall on me. Some might, but I'd live in fear for my life if confronted by an mob in an Islamic country. I can't even imagine that something like this could happen in a Christian-domitaed country or even Texas. Consider yourself lucky if you have the luxury of not having this fear.

I take issue with the extreme elements of a religion that routinely dehumanizes infidels and that subjugates women, that routinely spurns science and advancement.

But most of all, I tend to be mistrustful of a religion whose extreme elements refuse to acknowledge or admit that there is a valid separation between church and state, or that the rules of the mosque are not the rules of the courts, that the law as it applies to the heavenly realm is not the same as that which applies to the earthly realm.

I do not attribute these things to all Muslims. Not by a looooong shot. I work among Muslims and have no problem with them. But I take huge issue with the foaming-at-the-mouth Islamists. And I'm not at all cowed by accusations of bigotry when I say that I think Islamists represent a threat to western modernism.

Quoted in full. Excellent post. We need more liberals like you.

If there were, I don't think the word would have 'dirty' connotations to it in the US.

thank you.

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you guys can only kid yourself with your effort to conceal the racism you practice

shame on you

I think you'd better reread Liam's post above. There is nothing racist about it. His gripe, as is most of the West, has to do with the radical extreme fundamentalist muslim, not the religion as a whole.

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you guys can only kid yourself with your effort to conceal the racism you practice

shame on you

I think you'd better reread Liam's post above. There is nothing racist about it. His gripe, as is most of the West, has to do with the radical extreme fundamentalist muslim, not the religion as a whole.

I take issue with the extreme elements of a religion that routinely dehumanizes infidels and that subjugates women, that routinely spurns science and advancement.

But most of all, I tend to be mistrustful of a religion whose extreme elements refuse to acknowledge or admit that there is a valid separation between church and state, or that the rules of the mosque are not the rules of the courts, that the law as it applies to the heavenly realm is not the same as that which applies to the earthly realm.

using this argument to attack Islam (or any singled out religion) is nothing but racist - even if you guys are blind to it - it is real, it eats away at civilization and is as harmful to those who believe it as it is to those who it attacks

the truth is, none of those descriptions escape any extremist religious faction and there are NOT more muslim extremist sects than there are Buddhist, Christian or Jewish extremist sects -- you can hide from it but you can't change the truth

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the bigotry and intolerance promoted by racist morons against muslims today, is no different than those same attitudes being peddled by German Nazis in the 1930's

you want a chance to stop Hitler? he's posting hate of Muslims in your daily paper and in your online forums

While I think the Nazi Germany analogy is a bit strong, it does irritate me when I read people making intolerant comments about a huge diverse group of people (such as linking Muslim schools in Ontario to the attacks of 9/11 - which was on this very forum).

Would the same comments be acceptable if the word "muslim" or "islam" was replaced with "Jews" or "blacks?" I doubt it.

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Stignasty I agree with you 110% on the post made. To compare say we need to wage war against Muslims here at home and overseas, has a somewhat genocidal tone to it. I don't really agree with it, I think it's simply stereotyping and bigotry.

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using this argument to attack Islam (or any singled out religion) is nothing but racist - even if you guys are blind to it - it is real, it eats away at civilization and is as harmful to those who believe it as it is to those who it attacks

the truth is, none of those descriptions escape any extremist religious faction and there are NOT more muslim extremist sects than there are Buddhist, Christian or Jewish extremist sects -- you can hide from it but you can't change the truth

No. I'm not a racist. I said what I said because the subject of the thread turned to focus on Islam. Believe me, when the eventual post starts concerning Christianists, just wait till you see the can of whoop @ss I unload. I have absolutely nothing against Muslims. But I am against extremists -- of all faiths. It's just that the topic at hand happens to be of Islam.

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No. I'm not a racist. I said what I said because the subject of the thread turned to focus on Islam. Believe me, when the eventual post starts concerning Christianists, just wait till you see the can of whoop @ss I unload. I have absolutely nothing against Muslims. But I am against extremists -- of all faiths. It's just that the topic at hand happens to be of Islam.

No, the topic is the efficacy of the Troop Surge...accordingly and with much delight:

You should start a thread on that issue, I'm sure it will be a lively discussion, because it is off topic to the original post concerning troop surge strategy.

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No. I'm not a racist. I said what I said because the subject of the thread turned to focus on Islam. Believe me, when the eventual post starts concerning Christianists, just wait till you see the can of whoop @ss I unload. I have absolutely nothing against Muslims. But I am against extremists -- of all faiths. It's just that the topic at hand happens to be of Islam.

The problem is some people on here think the war is against the entire religion. Even the people who aren't extremists.

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you guys can only kid yourself with your effort to conceal the racism you practice

shame on you

Shame on you for assuming I'm ashamed for disliking the Islamic religion. I have no problem with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or anyone else not blowing themselves up in the name of religion.

you're not ashamed - ok, I get it - you should be ashamed but I don't think you get it

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you guys can only kid yourself with your effort to conceal the racism you practice

shame on you

Shame on you for assuming I'm ashamed for disliking the Islamic religion. I have no problem with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or anyone else not blowing themselves up in the name of religion.

you're not ashamed - ok, I get it - you should be ashamed but I don't think you get it

And you're an idiot woody. You're too stupid to be ashamed of that, though. What you and the other folks don't get is that hysteria over "bigotry" is what is going to lead us down the garden path. CAIR and CAIR-Can are well aware of our aversion to anything that smacks of "bigotry", and plays it up very well to the media...most notably of late the Imams who were rightly kicked off the plane for freaking passengers out and disrupting everyone. Meanwhile, CAIR and a host of Islamic "human rights" lobby groups are funded by Saudi Wahabbists, and resists every effort by moderate Muslims to denounce terror or extremism. So while you piously close your eyes and cover your ears and refuse to speak any "evil", Islamists are sneaking in the back door. There are court challenges afoot to institute limited Sharia as regards family matters, court challenges over headscarves; all sorts of inroads that you'll no doubt defend on the grounds of "tolerance", and all adding up to eventual inroads and transformation of our society. It's not so bad here in Canada yet, and may never be, since we have a mix of immigrant religions, but in Europe it's essentially the only religion immigrating. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo...related&search=

What goes on in mosques in the UK today. It's in 6 parts, about 50 minutes in length, total.

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you guys can only kid yourself with your effort to conceal the racism you practice

shame on you

Shame on you for assuming I'm ashamed for disliking the Islamic religion. I have no problem with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or anyone else not blowing themselves up in the name of religion.

you're not ashamed - ok, I get it - you should be ashamed but I don't think you get it

And you're an idiot woody. You're too stupid to be ashamed of that, though. What you and the other folks don't get is that hysteria over "bigotry" is what is going to lead us down the garden path. CAIR and CAIR-Can are well aware of our aversion to anything that smacks of "bigotry", and plays it up very well to the media...most notably of late the Imams who were rightly kicked off the plane for freaking passengers out and disrupting everyone. Meanwhile, CAIR and a host of Islamic "human rights" lobby groups are funded by Saudi Wahabbists, and resists every effort by moderate Muslims to denounce terror or extremism. So while you piously close your eyes and cover your ears and refuse to speak any "evil", Islamists are sneaking in the back door. There are court challenges afoot to institute limited Sharia as regards family matters, court challenges over headscarves; all sorts of inroads that you'll no doubt defend on the grounds of "tolerance", and all adding up to eventual inroads and transformation of our society. It's not so bad here in Canada yet, and may never be, since we have a mix of immigrant religions, but in Europe it's essentially the only religion immigrating. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo...related&search=

What goes on in mosques in the UK today. It's in 6 parts, about 50 minutes in length, total.

I disregard anything Guthrie says, if we were fighting a war against Mexico I'm sure he'd be accusing us all of being racist against Latinos, he cant decipher the fact that there is no Islamic race. Its a religion. And please don't tell me what i should and should not be ashamed of, especially when you can not tell the difference between a religion and a race of people.

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